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Some of the giants attacks would sound a bit "huh?". But it would be true in regards to the empire steamtank as well.

-Chomp: Giant takes a bite, causing d3 wounds, no armour save, gaining the same wounds himself.

-Thump with club: the target takes I-test, if failed it takes 2d6 wounds no armour save, if a double is rolled the club embeds itselt in the ground, the giant cannot attack in the next turn as he is recovering the weapon.

In buildings both sides can only fight with 10 models at a time, if the attacker looses he is pushed 1" back, and the defender is always stubborn.

perhaps make it hover closer to the ground, and then make it posible for monsters to fight it from the ground.

I or T: It depents weather it hovers high or down in monster reach.

As for beastmen, I play them, and I think I could take on this machine. I would however need a "heads up" before, but I'm always looking for a reason to field a flying doombull, and a jabberslythe.

When fighting in a building, you can only attack with 10 infantry, cav or warbeasts (and mounts don't fight) 3 monsterous infantry, or 1 monster.
You don't count as charging, you don't get ranks, and you don't get standards, or anything else to combat res (though musicians still break ties).
If the charging unit fails to wipe out or break it's opponent, it is pushed 1" and combat ends.
You can only charge a building by declaring a charge, you cannot over-run into it.
Units with flaming attacks re-roll to wound (which I think is a better fit than flammable).


As for the movement, moving through, but not ending on, is still a problem. Park 1" in front of the dwarven cannons/organ guns, and they can't be charged.
I'd up the movement to 10", just because it should be faster than dwarves on foot. Gyro's will still be twice as fast. You'll be moving as fast as an elf jogging, but still slower than anything mounted. Single models don't wheel, they just pivot and go.

As for the special flight rules, I don't see a way to keep them and deal with blocking issues. At least using the building fighting rules, you've got a shot at doing something in melee, as opposed to just being total screwed.
The other issue with special flight rules for a machine is that birds still out endurance aircraft today. Many species can fly for days on end without stopping, I find it odd to give a machine any sort of better flying than anything else rule.

-Matt

@snapsepaven: Thanks! I don't know about the building rules, would the airship just use it's current stat line? I'm just uncomfortable with ground units being able to attack it all, I can understand Giants, but if you include monstrous infantry... heh I'd almost be like an intentional snub at regular infantry
I gotta run to work now, but I'll think about all this more, as much as I can while making burgers for rich people

HawaiiMatt wrote:
The other issue with special flight rules for a machine is that birds still out endurance aircraft today. Many species can fly for days on end without stopping, I find it odd to give a machine any sort of better flying than anything else rule.

While true to some degree (not 100%, considering we have some aircraft that literally spend days in the air), I think its simply ignoring the logistics of a battle and the role a flying creature or unit would play vs what a command airship would be doing.

1) Most (not all) flying creatures and units fight in hand to hand, and therefore would have to stay reasonably close to the ground and also come down to fight.
2) They would also need to stay closer to the ground to respond to or issue commands.
3) The more bestial would not be flying up as high as possible, they would be constantly flying directly towards their next combat.

However, an airship with guns and cannons would stay well out of reach of most things, raining death upon the battlefield. Also, certain technological advances would allow commands to be communicated, despite the height, like say flags or flares to signal different things, etc.

@Magister187: Thanks, good to hear from you again

With what pondering I was able to do between scalding my arm hairs off, I've come to some conclusions:

-I'm going to keep the flight rule, it really is the defining element of the whole project, the one thing that really makes this different from any other large monster.
-Ground units will be able to move through, and on the Airship's base as if it was open ground. They act as though it didn't exist.
-The airship will move as though it is ethereal, which is to say, it can pass through difficult terrain and impassible terrain, but may not end its moves inside said terrain.
-While keeping the flight rules, there's nothing I can do about the multiple combats, logically it might not make sense, but logistically I think it will be fine.
-I'm keeping the General and the BSB rules- from a design standpoint, if the leader of the army went through all the time and effort to have this thing built, clearly they are of a new generation of dwarfs, embracing new technologies... And would be more inclined to rally if they saw this marvel of Dwarven engineering floating above their heads
-Finally, I will write up a bit about a large blast template hit on everything when it finally goes down, just because I love it!

I think that covers everything... I'll see how I can write it up to be as simply phrased as possible, believe it or not, I can't stand overly complicated rules

Thank you so so much, especially to Magister187 and HawiiMatt, you both clearly care about this project!

As always, if anything I said is bollocks, let me know! Keep the debate lively, this is by no means the final draft!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also made exploding cannons cause D6 wounds, everything under the large blast template when this dies take a S10 hit, and all Dwarf units on the board have to take a panic test when it dies Now without the benefit of a General or a BSB

Night all!

I like this idea. A lot. The unhinged side of dwarfen culture that is the Engineer's guild is not nearly represented enough.

So...I've looked this thread over, and I couldn't find anything on this, so I thought I'd ask: why not use the Thunderbarge on p.425 of the BRB, at least as a starting point?

I do agree, though, that something needs to be done about how it interacts with ground troops. What you've got so far makes the most sense, though it will be a bit tricky in terms of moving the bases around on the board.

Also, I think this device might be better served as a war machine/building combo. Simplicity is great, but I don't think it'd be too hard to make an idea like that work.
High T and Wounds (great), but what if you allowed enemies who were assaulting/shooting/casting at the device to target the crew within (given that they're at long range and have Hard Cover, of course)?
It adds a little in the way of complexity, but it would fix the problem that a lot of non-artillery packing armies face (as for lists that don't field much small-arms fire, well...too bad).

I've also done a tad of research on this subject: zeppelins were fragile, but they had separate air compartments and doubled-up on protective layers to help seal up small holes and the like, so while a blimp isn't all that tough, it's also not a hot air balloon.

@Warpsolution: Thanks so much!
With the target able crew- how many do you think? As many as the airship has wounds?
I unfortunately don't have the BRB... heh could you give me a quick rundown?

Here goes (my comments/suggestions in italics):

Troop type: war machine (your Lord could be a special Master Engineer lord, who joins the crew)
Thunderbarge: T6 W10
Crew: M4(...don't know why. stick with 3) WS4 BS3(again. stick with 4) S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld10

Unbreakable, Large Target, Magic Resistance (3) (cool and Dwarf-y), Ward Save (+6) (...?), Hover
(no armour save. not sure about that)

High Flyer: can only be charged by flyers
(seems solid, but being ignore by ground troops would be best).

Gun Platform: may fire guns/drop bombs even if it has moved.

Bedecked with Cannons: armed with five organ guns. One may be fired per two crew, rounding up. (that's...a lot...)

Bombs Away: one thunderbomb can be launched each turn, as a stone thrower except: range- 3-12" S3(6) Multiple Wounds (D3) (this seems way cool, and pretty reasonable)

Misfires: If an organ gun or thunderbomb rolls a Destroyed! on the Misfire chart, it suffers d3 Wounds (remove crew as normal), and that weapon may no longer be used. (fair enough. How about allowing one re-rolled Misfire! result/turn, to represent the Engineers helping out. Not every one of them is an Engineer, right?)

Disaster!: when destroyed, it scatters 3d6" in a random direction and crashes to the ground. Any model touched by the Thunderbarge's base suffers a S8 hit.
(funny. stuff).

This feels more...all-or-nothing. Less durable. And way, way, way more destructive. Granted, I think this monster is supposed to be 600pts or something (no point value).

I think it would make sense if the crew gained +3 armour vs. shooting from the metal plates and shielding, though. That would make sense. But against a dragon? T4, with negligible armour. I think that makes sense. I mean, dragon versus blimp...

Then again, maybe the "close combat attacks" are all S4 with AP, to represent the guys shooting at gribblies as they approach.

So...an upgrade for a Lord (...or...Hero?) choice? The option of buying extra crewman, cannons, bombs, runes, etc.? One/army, of course.
That's my take.

Yeah, first thought is that that many organ guns i crazy overpowered! Of course, like you said, it doesn't have a points value yet, but still!!

Other than that, it seems very similar to what I made... heh stronger in some areas, weaker in others. I think in some cases this one is more realistic, less in others.

Do you think this could be considered a lord and still be a War Machine? It seems very Dwarfy to have a war machine leader...

In all honesty, one of the main reasons that I don't want this to be a rare choice is I feel like it gives a very strong Engineer feel to the entire army, and if this is a rare choice, you cant take any
Cannons or Gyrocopters, at least not in a 2000- 2500 pt game... heh messes with the aesthetic!

I think I will try to make it a war machine though... let me just hop up to the first post...

I would also like to make it customizable, specially if it is a Lord choice, I just need to get some play testing in first in its basic state, to see how much more or less I could add

Here's what I'd suggest:

- make it a "mount" for a Master Engineer. Or maybe a Lord-level Engineer character you make (WS5, BS6, S4, T5, W3, I3, A3, Ld9).

-something like 275pts base (for the upgrade + the Lord)? Maybe it comes with two organ guns and 10 Crew?

- upgrades: extra crew members: 15pts each, up to 15.
- extra organ gun +120pts (up to...4...for huge games?)
- bombs for +80pts
- +3 armour versus shooting +40pts
- up to 75pts of Runes from the Standard or Warmachine lists?

...so you could, for 500pts, get: the blimp, plus an extra organ gun, armour plating, a 5+ Ward versus shooting (MRoGrungni) and MR1 (RoSanctuary).

I was talking to my friend about this thread, and your desire to keep it balanced between crushing and being crushed, and her response was quite enlightening. Consider, if you will, the Steam Tank. If an army doesn't have the tools to deal with this device...well, they lose. If they have those tools in abundance, you just lost 300pts.

In historical combat, this has actually been the way of things. If you don't have anti-tank artillery, your infantry is done for. If you do, those tanks do next to nothing.

I guess the only reasonable solution is to talk to your opponent ahead of time, and try to build armies that stand a chance against each other, but don't utterly destroy those really fun bits right away.

The BRB suggests the best way to handle this sort of thing is to let your opponent bring his own legendary thing-y. Not a bad idea, really.

I think I have the latest dwarf book so this will seem really picky compared to the massive airhsip idea- If its an engineer/master flying the ship does he confer the advantages to the artillery as if he had joined it (reroll misfire)? I love the airship idea and can't wait to see the finished model. I like your flying rules idea although its slow but it would be cool if it could descend once and then be treated like a building with the weapons. also probaly need a rule thinking about firing from that height. Your line of sights not gonna be blocked easily thats for sure.

@Warpsolution: Honestly, I'm already worried about two organ guns and a cannon being too powerful at 500pts, mostly because of the flight rules... literally the only thing that can hit this are ranged units and fliers I might consider making it a mount... but im not sure if I need to It's pretty much assumed that this would have a master engineer inside it already... I know I wouldn't send something so large into attle without someone capable at the helm!
I do really like the idea of the extra crew members that you can purchase... and the idea of the runes! I feel like I might have to limit the rune choices though, because you can, for 5 points, get a rune that negates one of this things larger weaknesses, the fact that it's flammable...
I also like the idea of being able to purchase bombs ...
I'm not sure if it needs the extra armor vs. shooting, it already has a 2+ save, few hand weapons are going to be able to modify that at all, but artillery will take a chunk out of it! heh and I feel like that's pretty appropriate
Yeah, I'd also like to be able to bring this monstrosity with me when I travel to other stores, beyond my friendly little local club. I know that there will always be people who look at anything new and claim it's unfair, especially after loosing to it, but I hope to minimize that as much as possible! Heh and anyone that wants to take their own legendary beasty against this... bring it on!!!

@an1m8r: Any ideas are a huge help, I started designing this knowing I wouldn't be able to do it myself!
My question is, why would you want it to land?
Like you said, when firing from that height, you have much greater LOS!

Good news... I have begun to order parts for this bad boy!

good point... never mind. Good luck building

The +3 armour versus shooting idea would come into play if it played by War Machine rules (i.e.: T6-7 against shooting, use crew's armour save [6+]).

In close combat, I think you would be best off using the crew's T, like normal war machines (4).

The idea for a steam powered, iron-plated zepplin is cool, but a more traditional "air ship", as in, a ship with a balloon on it, would be easier to balance within the game.

I also think that 3 organ guns would actually be more reasonable than 2 and a cannon. Less versatility, but still keeping with the "cannon-decks" feel.

As for the LoS, well, Warhammer uses True LoS rules now, so...you would draw it from however high up you (are able to) model it, I guess.

The airship always has an armor save of 2+, against anything, because the crew has an armor save of 2+ representing them being entrenched in this flying behemoth In close combat they do use the crew's toughness, but they also use the 2+ save
Im sorry if that's completely incoherent, Im about to fall asleep heh I'll check back in the morning to see if im making any sense...
Thanks for all your help Warpsolution

I love the concept, and cannot wait to see you construct the model to represent these rules.'

Also, not sure if you wanna swing it this way, but perhaps, instead of a stand alone warmachine, you could have this as an option for the Engineer as a 'mount'

@AvatarForm: Thanks! Process has been unfortunately slow due to lack of funds
Like I've said a couple times in this thread though, I DON'T want to have this be a mount... I don't know, it strikes me as unnecessary It's kind of assumed that an engineer is already in there, that's why it's a Lord choice!

I see what you mean about being unnecessary, but I think that logic can go either way. Is it more unnecessary to create an option for a character, or is it more unnecessary to create a new character?

My vote is currently on the second; it just fits the way the Dwarf book works right now. Like the Anvil.

Heh, I'm sorry, I just cant see it! Just doesn't make any sense to me... sorry!!

Where is the piks?

Dude, probably wont be pics for a while Sorry, but I'm a full time student with very little cash or time!

I have also been considering doing something very similar to this. Forgeworld used to make Dwarven airships. Pics below.

http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/topic/28486-forgeworld-warmaster-dwarf-airship/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The airship shown here is nice as well.

http://www.ssnii.com/

joshoftheforest wrote:@AvatarForm: Thanks! Process has been unfortunately slow due to lack of funds
Like I've said a couple times in this thread though, I DON'T want to have this be a mount... I don't know, it strikes me as unnecessary It's kind of assumed that an engineer is already in there, that's why it's a Lord choice!

No worries mate.

It was only a suggestion, and it is your project in the end of things.

@AlexTheTitan: Please excuse me for a moment while I scoop my jaw off the ground... those are some of the most beautiful pictures I have ever seen... I think I may cry... they should have sent a poet...

@AvatarForm: I'm sorry, that came out a little harsh!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just re-typed the first post and re-organized everything! Also, threw in a couple of new things, specifically a couple of customizable things and a few clarifications, check it out!


I also just wanted to throw out another major thank you to everyone who has helped with this project so far, with all of your help, I've seen this little baby idea transform into something very cool and exciting! So, thank you!