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Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

Ouze wrote:Nah, I'm just being reasonable. I don't think god exists, but if you show me a god, I'd believe in him\her\it.


If you were shown god, you would not have to believe as you will have seen it. In the same way you don't have to believe in a brick, because you have (almost certainly) seen one before so know that bricks exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
dogma wrote:Its not that surprising. For whatever reason atheism seems to be one of the most difficult things for Western people to wrap their heads around; to the point where many self-proclaimed atheists don't fully understand what it is (I'm looking at you Dicky Dawkins).

Of course, that goes hand in hand with the tendency to misunderstand religion as well, so maybe its easier to say that lots of people struggle with metaphysics.


Entirely true. I don't claim to be anything close to an expert. I speak about what I know. But even from my relatively "metaphysically unenlightened" athiest point of view, Dawkins can be a bit of a tool doing more harm than good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/28 14:00:28


   
Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

Ouze wrote:I don't think god exists, but if you show me a god, I'd believe in him\her\it.


But that is Dawkins' position as laid out in the God Delusion and elsewhere. He doesn't believe in god but he wouldn't pretend one doesn't exist if actually shown one.

If you could actually show atheists a god then they would all have to accept it or face the problem of maintaining a belief contrary to available evidence. Even Richard Dawkins has said that he would believe in god if supplied with proof, because that's what a scientist should do. Dawkins has said that he could be considered very agnostic in the sense that he's as atheistic as meaningfully possible without going as far as to make a declaration of faith in saying that god is an impossibility. No one can really say that because you can very rarely prove a negative, only that the vast majority/dearth of evidence suggests it is the case. He's not closed to evidence to change his position on the existence of god should it come along, but the fact is there isn't anything remotely close to proof of god as we stand. I would believe in god if one was proven to exist but it's a pretty big hypothetical we're talking about here.

If there was definitive evidence for a god and you decided to remain an atheist then you'd be choosing to maintain a position as a denier of scientific fact making you no better than a person who believes six day creationism or denies the existance of global warming and the holocaust.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Manchester UK

Is Dawkins really all that much of a firebrand? I think he comes across as pretty reasonable.

Now, Hitchens...

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Albatross wrote:Is Dawkins really all that much of a firebrand? I think he comes across as pretty reasonable.

Now, Hitchens...


Yeah, Hitchens and Harris (no Sam, you're not Thomas Payne, and he isn't really worth emulating anyway) are worse. That said, I have respect for a man that can make money as a public speaker while also showing up sauced to the majority of his engagements.

Anyway, the thing about Dawkins is that he has the tendency to whine about the oppression of atheists, which is very annoying when no such condition exists. I mean, if you wear your beliefs on your sleeve, people are going to comment if they hold dissenting beliefs; that's the way of life, and why religion is one of those things most people are instructed to leave out of polite conversation.

Also, he simply isn't a very good philosopher, and it gets old watching The God Delusion held up as some sort of atheist bible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/28 14:51:37


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

The more I come on here the more I become convinced we cant agree on anything.

And Frazz has managed to almost single handedly make me go from a republican to a democrat in less than 6 months.

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

mattyrm wrote:The more I come on here the more I become convinced we cant agree on anything.


Not even the agreement that you will disagree?

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

mattyrm wrote:The more I come on here the more I become convinced we cant agree on anything.

And Frazz has managed to almost single handedly make me go from a republican to a democrat in less than 6 months.


Then my work here is done.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

Frazzled wrote:
mattyrm wrote:The more I come on here the more I become convinced we cant agree on anything.

And Frazz has managed to almost single handedly make me go from a republican to a democrat in less than 6 months.


Then my work here is done.


What work?

If your work involved convincing anybody even remotely on the fence that the followers of the Republican party are utterly incapable of fair play or independant thought, then yes mate, you have done a tremendous job.

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

mattyrm wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Then my work here is done.


What work?




Troll-modding matty, Frazzie has reverted to his old tricks and deleted the posts he doesn't like. While leaving pro-IRA comments intact in the previous thread, which happened to be on religion, then locks the thread so those not in that argument can't get back on topic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/28 16:08:06


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Orlanth wrote:
mattyrm wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Then my work here is done.


What work?




Troll-modding matty, Frazzie has reverted to his old tricks and deleted the posts he doesn't like. While leaving pro-IRA comments intact in the previous thread, which happened to be on religion, then locks the thread so those not in that argument can't get back on topic.

Exactly. My ouiji board told me that the thread would change from atheist vs. churcher death match to Irish bash on page 13, so I waited patiently, biding my time muahahah!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mattyrm wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
mattyrm wrote:The more I come on here the more I become convinced we cant agree on anything.

And Frazz has managed to almost single handedly make me go from a republican to a democrat in less than 6 months.


Then my work here is done.


What work?

If your work involved convincing anybody even remotely on the fence that the followers of the Republican party are utterly incapable of fair play or independant thought, then yes mate, you have done a tremendous job.


Exactly. Wait, you thought I was a Republican didn't you...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/28 16:16:11


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Frazzled wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
mattyrm wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Then my work here is done.


What work?




Troll-modding matty, Frazzie has reverted to his old tricks and deleted the posts he doesn't like. While leaving pro-IRA comments intact in the previous thread, which happened to be on religion, then locks the thread so those not in that argument can't get back on topic.

Exactly. My ouiji board told me that the thread would change from atheist vs. churcher death match to Irish bash on page 13, so I waited patiently, biding my time muahahah!



Well unlock it, there were atheists being wrong on there !!!

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

   
Made in us
Nigel Stillman





Seattle WA

I didn't care for the article, I feel as though the author made some questionable arguments and gave stupid examples to back them up.

For example,

I disagree with pretty much everything in number 3,

First of all...

"Well, at the very worst, the atheists are just applying the same common sense, real-world troubleshooting to the God question. At the creation of the universe and in the heart of mankind, they expect to find the same physical, tangible answers they'd find inside a burnt transmission. If they're wrong about God, they're only wrong in that they've taken the tried-and-true troubleshooting we all practice one step too far."

I see no reason why the universe should not be logical. Also I wonder why he is implying that I am wrong for thinking so.

The second

"Atheists, even if you reject the idea of God completely and claim to live according only to the cold logic of the physical sciences, you all still live as if the absolute morality of some magical lawgiver were true."

So god has a monopoly on morality does he?

I would argue that a person could arrive at very similar moral values to those presented in religious texts by the use of logic. Also what about all these federal and state laws we have? You can't expect me to believe that the only reason people don't murder or steal more is because their faith forbids it. They don't do those things because a "real nonmagical" lawgiver will throw their ass in jail.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
mattyrm wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Then my work here is done.


What work?




Troll-modding matty, Frazzie has reverted to his old tricks and deleted the posts he doesn't like. While leaving pro-IRA comments intact in the previous thread, which happened to be on religion, then locks the thread so those not in that argument can't get back on topic.

Exactly. My ouiji board told me that the thread would change from atheist vs. churcher death match to Irish bash on page 13, so I waited patiently, biding my time muahahah!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mattyrm wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
mattyrm wrote:The more I come on here the more I become convinced we cant agree on anything.

And Frazz has managed to almost single handedly make me go from a republican to a democrat in less than 6 months.


Then my work here is done.


What work?

If your work involved convincing anybody even remotely on the fence that the followers of the Republican party are utterly incapable of fair play or independant thought, then yes mate, you have done a tremendous job.


Exactly. Wait, you thought I was a Republican didn't you...


They should have known better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/28 16:47:35



See more on Know Your Meme 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Howard A Treesong wrote:


I had that cartoon in mind. Hence the multiple exclamation marks.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

Ma55ter_fett wrote:I would argue that a person could arrive at very similar moral values to those presented in religious texts by the use of logic. Also what about all these federal and state laws we have? You can't expect me to believe that the only reason people don't murder or steal more is because their faith forbids it. They don't do those things because a "real nonmagical" lawgiver will throw their ass in jail.


Religion is very closely associated with morality throughout history, but religion has been entwined into culture throughout history. It isn't solely responsible for morality but they have influenced each other both ways. People of different religions share similar morals, and people within the same religion have different morals. For instance, murder is pretty much universally condemned in all societies throughout history. Killing is acceptable in a variety of circumstances like warfare, punishment, sacrifice but generally killing one of your peers is considered to be wrong. That's shared by entirely different cultures that have never even met. Meanwhile you only have to look at say christianity to see there's very little agreement on other matters like abortion and homosexuality for instance. They all read from the same book and yet various people come to entirely different "one true readings" on morality, and all think they are equally correct.

Most people don't take the bible literally for instruction, it's difficult to anyway because it's unclear and conflicting in places. So when you have to debate the intent of certain things in the bible, what do you fall back upon? The bible may provide moral instruction, but it isn't the origin of morality and religion in general does not have the monopoly on it. 'Morality' is age old, we have biologically evolved to be sympathetic and social creatures, and the concept of 'society' has taken millennia to form. People had morals before the bible was written, and if we're honest it was only written by people just like every other religion from that of the Aztecs and Mayans, to the ancient Greeks and Egyptians, or the cargo cults in the Pacific.

Much morality can be arrived at by a degree of empathy and logic, a sense of fairness. Texts like the bible can point things out, but you're free to take it or leave it, and most people do just this on a variety of topics in the bible. To me it seems wrong-headed and offensive to claim that the only reason an atheist has morals is because they are still living as though "the absolute morality of some magical lawgiver were true". That would seem to suggest that a true atheist would naturally be selfish and egotistical and dispense with common decency for the sake of merely pleasuring themselves and their own lives.

This simply isn't the case, and nor is it true that atheists have morals because they are merely following the law of the land. People have opportunities to lie, cheat and steal all the time without any possibility of legal repercussions but they don't choose to commit these acts. It's as silly to claim this as it is to say that a christian only follows their morality because they are afraid of being punished by god. Really? Do any theists really feel that is the only reason they have morality, for fear of angering god? No of course not.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Orlanth wrote:
Well unlock it, there were atheists being wrong on there !!!


Give me a minute. That requires like...effort, which I am opposed to on philosophical grounds.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

dogma wrote:
You can be an agnostic, and a theist. I know tons of agnostic Christians.


Oh, I'm aware of that. Don't ruin my funny joke moment.

Ouze wrote:
Fafnir wrote:Pfff! Agnostics are just atheists without the balls.


Nah, I'm just being reasonable. I don't think god exists, but if you show me a god, I'd believe in him\her\it.


See above.
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Fafnir wrote:Well, that's the tenth poster, boys.

So, logically, if one in ten people is gay, one of us has to be gay.


Logically? Some fuzzy logic going on there
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

IT'S SIMPLE MATH!
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Ulver wrote:
Fafnir wrote:Well, that's the tenth poster, boys.

So, logically, if one in ten people is gay, one of us has to be gay.


Logically? Some fuzzy logic going on there
Gay but in the closet, or gay but doesn't make a big deal out of it?

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Swindon, Wiltshire, UK

Fafnir wrote:IT'S SIMPLE MATH!


Probabilities really do not work like that
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

Don't ask me. I didn't pull that statistic out of my ass. Someone else on the internet did. I just helped pass it along.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Swindon, Wiltshire, UK

Fafnir wrote:Don't ask me. I didn't pull that statistic out of my ass. Someone else on the internet did. I just helped pass it along.


The statistic is fine, you just totally abused mathematics

a 0.1 chance that something is true is nothing more than a ten percent chance, you cannot use it to state absolutes.

Well you can, it's just bs.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Course if there is someone here who is gay, it's probably the person you least expect to be.

So Frazzled, do you have something to tell us?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/28 20:34:52


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

Melissia wrote:Course if there is someone here who is gay, it's probably the person you least expect to be.

So Frazzled, do you have something to tell us?


Are you saying it's time to get the pointy fingers and torches out?
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Fafnir wrote:
Melissia wrote:So Frazzled, do you have something to tell us?
Are you saying it's time to get the pointy fingers [...] out?
... I really don't want to know.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Leman Russ, is gay?!?!?!?!?111ONE??

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

Melissia wrote:
Fafnir wrote:
Melissia wrote:So Frazzled, do you have something to tell us?
Are you saying it's time to get the pointy fingers [...] out?
... I really don't want to know.


Well, let's face it, that sphincter isn't going to relax all on it's own!
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Oh please, we've known that for a while. He was so gay for his brother Lion.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Scotland

Read the headers on the article and i think they are mainly just common sense or things 'A reasonable human being' should agree with. To be fair the article was probably incredibly witty/lulz but i shant read it. I have mushrooms to feed to my animals, i dont have time to read.

Mary Sue wrote: Perkustin is even more awesome than me!



 
   
 
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