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starsdawn wrote:

DAaddict wrote:A SC is just a forced exploit.

Can you please explain how is it forced?

As a player, are you forced to play Vulkan? Or even if you're taking Vulkan, are you forced to spam Melta, TH and flamers? Or are you forced to max your sterns if you have Pedro?

A lot of SCs don't even "dictate" what the rest of your army should look like.

SCs are in the end, tools that you want or want not to use. If you don't like using them, then coolbeans. But there's no reason to get uppity and mad just because someone doesn't like the same stuff as you.

It is a forced expoit in the sense that you are an idiot to pay 100+ pts to field a Vulkan or Pedro and not utilize what it gives you access to. It is forced in the same sense as playing a SW list and not taking advantage of the cheap and effective long fangs units or BA assault marines not taking advantage of exploiting fast cheap razorbacks.

I am not getting mad at anyone for using the means that are available but I am not going to look down on a SM codex player taking Vulkan and front loading his army with flamers and meltas just like I am not going to get mad at a SW play playing 3 long fangs with missile launchers. I am saying that you are going to play to your strengths and if it happens to include use of a codex or a special character sobeit.

PrometheusZero wrote:I suppose I hate the attitude of "Oh, If your playing blah-blah, you have to have xxx-Special Character or you'll just lose."

Along with 'I use net-list blah blah blah with SC blah-blah and I never lose because he pwns everything.'

I want to punch those people so badly my knuckles bleed!

That is true, people can have an overinflated sense of invincibility, but I do not find that it is limited to JUST SC. People will talk about how awsome their Land Raider is or their Thunderwolves or even IG artillery. I feel like most Net lists do not use SC.

Net Lists without SC

Space Wolves: Rasorspam with a Rune Priest, Wolf Star with a Wolf Lord on mount.
Imperial Guard: Mechvets/Leaf-blower/Air-Cav use CCS.
Blood Angels: Razorspam and DoA usually use Librarians, maybe Mephiston, but not a must take.
Orks : Kan-Wall uses 2x KFF Meks
Chaos Space Marines: 2x Lash Princes or Sorcerers.
Tyranids: Tervigon or Prime usually.
Tau: Just a regular Shas'o. When have you ever seen the Space Pope in a net list?
Witch Hunters: Bad special characters, and the HQ's are very cheep.
Black Templar: Terminator command squads are good, and the Emperor's champion does not count as a SC. Plus the specials are not too good.
Necrons: Either a res-lord or Destroyer lord, the C'tan are a ton of points you take out of your phase out limit.


There are a few codii at the moment that seem to rely more heavily on the SC than the others.
1) Space Marines: Vulkan and Kantor are both very good and add a lot of utility to the army for not too many points.
2) Dark Angels: If you want to play Deathwing or Ravenwing you need a SC, and people play Dark angels for the Wings
3) Chaos Demons: Fateweaver is popular in net lists

SCs are generally useless to me in the armies that I play. Considering I play below 2k Pts (Generally 1500), they are just not point efficient or don't take my fancy. With that said, I do not really worry about SCs because most of them are just upgraded counterparts which an all-comer's army can deal with if done correctly. Also for me I like 1500 Pts because you can start to use some of the 'dex toys, but you still need to be as efficient as possible. Bringing a 200ish pt SC is still kind of a big deal at 1500. Now, granted my main armies, (SW, IG, BA) don't really have any SCs that particularly tickle my fancy (except for Marbo). What I think though is that GW should rename some SCs to a more generic game, allowing players to make their own character. Basically give us a wargear/skill layout with XXX pts, and let us make the character ourselves, i.e. Marbo could be renamed Stealthy Squishy IG Spy or something.


Anyway, back to OP, I have no problem with SCs, if people want to use them fine, but using an SC in no way guarantees victory and those who think do are definitely a bit close-minded or horrible generals.

I have Blood Angels, guard and Witch hunters and really when I look at special characters the ones that tend to stick out for me are ones that allow me to do something tactically that otherwise I would not be able to do. Al'Rehem for the reason Alairos mentioned before. Chenkov to really get the feel of men as a resource with conscripts. Astaroth to really build a list off of death company.

As for using them as the said legendary figure I generally tend to rename them. In the case I just refer to him as my Imperial Commando as really while Marbo may be able to slink away my men are going to die when killed.

Cheers,
~Volkan

KingCracker wrote:I think its a rather good tactical discussion. Do you use the SC in your dex? I play Orks, and I have only used Ghaz twice. Yes I know he is a brute and krumps things with ease, but I dont much care for using him. I like the thought of winning, or putting up a hell of a fight, with just the regular Warboss/BigMek. Waht about you DAKKA? Are you the same way? Or do you just rely heavily on special characters and such?

SC can be very useful, but they are not the end-all be-all.
In the Ork codex I rely upon Snikrot quite a bit. In my DE list, I use Vect.

scubasteve04 wrote:
I'm just so sick of the SC hate though. There is a major tournament in my city that is using comp scoring that penalises for SC use. I wish people would get their heads out of their a55 and recognise the current meta.

I know your pain. I had to change my army at the last minute due to a base size issue, and the only army I can use now I have to use a special character. I'm facing massive comp deductions (which are actually a multiplier on your entire score for this tournament) because I'm forced to take a special character for my list to work. It's doubly painful when you consider that my list is probably the furthest thing from competetive, so not only am I unlikely to gain any points from the games themselves, whatever points I do gain will be cut down by a hefty .7 multiplier.

I have absolutely no issue with SC's in general.

Between my Chaos Daemons army and CSM, I often find a nice shiney 200+ point model with his own personal tale of conquest and victory and ETERNAL GLOR-aaaaand its a spawn.

SC's are fun, down my area most people make a new name/fluff for the model and use the stats+rules.

svendrex wrote:Black Templar: Terminator command squads are good, and the Emperor's champion does not count as a SC. Plus the specials are not too good.

Just saying, why would the Emperor's Champion not count as a Special Character? He's every bit as special as Sammael or Belial, isn't he? You can't play Deathwing without Belial, just as you can't play Black Templars over 750 without an Emperor's Champion, so why do you consider Belial an SC but not the Emperor's Champion?

I like it when people take SC's, as long as they're also IC's.

That makes them squig-fodder

Mutter Mutter non-IC SC's...

When I play Daemons or Vanilla SM I run special characters, such as Vulkan, Kantor, Skulltaker and Kairos. As for Blood Angels and Black Templar, I don't: I run Marshals, Chaplains, and Libbies (BA only). I guess if you want to consider the Emperor's Champion a special character, then I do for BT, but he IS forced...I don't have a choice. So, I don't think he really counts.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

svendrex wrote:Black Templar: Terminator command squads are good, and the Emperor's champion does not count as a SC. Plus the specials are not too good.

Just saying, why would the Emperor's Champion not count as a Special Character? He's every bit as special as Sammael or Belial, isn't he? You can't play Deathwing without Belial, just as you can't play Black Templars over 750 without an Emperor's Champion, so why do you consider Belial an SC but not the Emperor's Champion?

There are several reasons I do not consider the Emperor's Champion to be a Special Character.

1) The Fluff: He is not really a "Character" inthe sense that he is one famous individual. He, or rather THEY, are more like a chapter champion chosen on the eve of a battle. The Emperor's champion is like being a Captain or a Marshal or a librarian. It is a title, not a name.

2) The Rules: Since you are required to take one and it is not "optional", i would not call it a special character. Also, he is not a more decked out version of a normal HQ like most specials, but rather something unique.

He does have some unique wargear like a special character, but functions in a very different way.

I don't, especially since my LFGS doesn't allow special charcters in tourni's which is totally acceptable. Personally I think its fair, that way you don't have OTT characters flying around. At the same time though, it makes it unfair for players that like to use SC's to gain the FoC changes, like Pedro Cantor making sternguard scoring, or Belial making termi's troops, and Wazdakka making bikers troops, especially since in these instances your paying for the bonus not excessive combat ability or statline.

I do use upgrade characters though, like Lemartes or Zagstrukk, but that's just on occasion and for the lolz as most are just for fun play.

PrometheusZero wrote:I disaprove of special characters. I feel it's just GW doing what Wizards of the Coast do with M:tG and rare cards.

'If you pay more money, you will have a more powerful force'

I dont like it and I never include special characters. I just name my own (It's not Space Marine Captain, its Captain Bael of the 5th Battle Company, Blood Angels Chapter, circa ~750.M41) and give them a little bit of Mary-sue fluff (Captain Bael once brought a rebel planet back to the Imperial fold all by himself, with only his Lightning Claws and 3 vortex grenades to hand)

There, my own 'special' character with none of the game bending rules that I frown at!

Considering special characters not only cost minor amounts at most more than standard characters, AND you can just convert one from a standard character if you want, I think you need to open your eyes and quit whining.


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Mr. DK wrote:I don't, especially since my LFGS doesn't allow special charcters in tourni's which is totally acceptable. Personally I think its fair, that way you don't have OTT characters flying around. At the same time though, it makes it unfair for players that like to use SC's to gain the FoC changes, like Pedro Cantor making sternguard scoring, or Belial making termi's troops, and Wazdakka making bikers troops, especially since in these instances your paying for the bonus not excessive combat ability or statline.

I do use upgrade characters though, like Lemartes or Zagstrukk, but that's just on occasion and for the lolz as most are just for fun play.

Armies are balanced around special characters existing to allow you to use certain force organizations.

The game is unbalanced if you ban special characters.

I use Eldrad almost 90% of the time when I play my eldar, I use the Avatar a lot as well.

Other than that Not really.

Some SC are great. I really like pedro kantor. Also...Swarmlord is a monster in melee and has really cool rules. some SC are awsome and it seems like the codex are leaning toward a more sC driven game play dynamic.

That you have to use their names and background is just silly. If you like the rules and want to pay for them, then that should be your criteria, just like any other unit. Use your own background if you care about that stuff. Tournaments aren't really the place to expect people to care about fluff, though.

I play Eldar and don't use special characters. If I had some that would let me alter my force org I'd do it all the time. In that respect I understand how C:SM players feel.

On the other hand, Eldar are supposed to be the best psykers and the generic Farseer doesn't come close anymore. Eldrad does, but there are characters, generic and special that can shut him down and that cast better than he does. He does everything normal Farseers do but does it all better and more times. His gear is nuts and he's not much more than a kitted Farseer so I easily understand players who like to run him.

People should run what is fun for them to play and if it's not fun for their friends they should be open with each other and making armies that provide the best gaming possible.

Whenever I don't take a haemonculi list, Duke Sliscus always finds his way into his force. Most of the DE special characters are worth it are normally weakened in some way to balance out their abilities, Lady Malys can be devastating to some armies (especially when the new GK come out) and the Baron is always a good trade off. Elrdrad is an awesome support unit, Ghazzi is a close combat monster. It all depends on your play style in the end, some people enjoy using them and others don't, some people take them for fluffy reasons and others take them for power gaming. It's all about how you build your force and how you play the game

This really, shouldn't be argued.
Refusing to play someone because he does X, makes you a TFG.
Refusing to follow the TO's rules makes you a whiner (you're not required to go after all).
Anything after that is just pointless hatering.

I think that Special Characters are fine.

Personally, I look for my HQs to be a force multiplier for my army.

As an Ork player, Ghazghkull Thraka does something for my army that a warboss doesn't - he makes the whole army fearless for an entire game turn, and turns my normal Waaaugh! into a full 6" movement automatically.

As a Dark Eldar player, Baron Sathonyx has no real fighting ability; no power weapons, no poisoned weapons, no guns....but he gives me +1 to go first, gives the unit he's with stealth, along with offensive and defensive grenades.

Now, if those traits were all built into a stock HQ named "Hellion Commander" I would still take him. Its not the SC I'm after in a list I build, but their ability to complement my army.

As an IG player, I occasionally use Marbo when I have the points to spare...he's quite fun. My Marbo model is more of a commando looking guy anyway than the Rambo-expy we get shown in the codex.

I will aslo occasionally use Creed or Pask just for the hell of it. Though, for each of them I have my own background, and own models for them, instead of using GWs. I just use their ruleset...if there was a 'make your own character' ruleset, I'd love that,but until then I'll keep just doing: 'so, he counts as Creed.'

That's what bugs me.
Hear this GW we demand some "make your own character" rules

I have always liked SC mainly because of how their models look. They always look a lot better than the normal stock troops etc. and add a lot of character to an army. I never win games though, but that is probably because I run an army based on the models that I like then the models that are efficient...

Dashofpepper wrote:As a Dark Eldar player, Baron Sathonyx has no real fighting ability; no power weapons, no poisoned weapons, no guns....but he gives me +1 to go first, gives the unit he's with stealth, along with offensive and defensive grenades.

This is true. He also has Minimum Str 6 on the charge, I6 (PGL so no issues here), 4 attacks and a shadow field.
While never as devastating as old Lilith, when coupled with his other merits, I feel his fighting ability is more than adequate.
*Note: 'No Poisoned weapons' is a bit inaccurate as he has both splinter pods 18" Ass 2 and a S.pistol (I have no clue why as the hell glaive is two handed).

HoverBoy wrote:That's what bugs me.
Hear this GW we demand some "make your own character" rules

I'd agree with that. Something similar to the way building a Hive Tyrant works, but moreso. Massive amounts of options, including special rules.

Yeah, but that works in the opposite direction of the trend GW has been setting.

Back in the day, you had units that had access to endless wargear entries, now it's been simplified to "unit may take X for Y points". Their current special characters rule is the pinnacle of this idea.

ChrisCP wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:As a Dark Eldar player, Baron Sathonyx has no real fighting ability; no power weapons, no poisoned weapons, no guns....but he gives me +1 to go first, gives the unit he's with stealth, along with offensive and defensive grenades.

This is true. He also has Minimum Str 6 on the charge, I6 (PGL so no issues here), 4 attacks and a shadow field.
While never as devastating as old Lilith, when coupled with his other merits, I feel his fighting ability is more than adequate.
*Note: 'No Poisoned weapons' is a bit inaccurate as he has both splinter pods 18" Ass 2 and a S.pistol (I have no clue why as the hell glaive is two handed).

I'm talking about poisoned weapons in assault (wound on a 2+) like venom claws, no power weapon, and while he can theoretically survive a few wounds with the Shadowfield (that I miraculously always fail on the first role) - he's a force multiplier, and I don't like seeing him in combat (because of aforementioned Shadowfield rolling).

I use special characters if I have the points left over (which is rarely), but I prefer to use my own characters instead.

Dashofpepper wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:As a Dark Eldar player, Baron Sathonyx has no real fighting ability; no power weapons, no poisoned weapons, no guns....but he gives me +1 to go first, gives the unit he's with stealth, along with offensive and defensive grenades.

This is true. He also has Minimum Str 6 on the charge, I6 (PGL so no issues here), 4 attacks and a shadow field.
While never as devastating as old Lilith, when coupled with his other merits, I feel his fighting ability is more than adequate.
*Note: 'No Poisoned weapons' is a bit inaccurate as he has both splinter pods 18" Ass 2 and a S.pistol (I have no clue why as the hell glaive is two handed).

I'm talking about poisoned weapons in assault (wound on a 2+) like venom claws, no power weapon, and while he can theoretically survive a few wounds with the Shadowfield (that I miraculously always fail on the first role) - he's a force multiplier, and I don't like seeing him in combat (because of aforementioned Shadowfield rolling).

That's why it was a note
True with Sf saves , one in six is always number two!

With the CC ability however. I feel his jobs 'done' after adding 1 forced them to try and seize. So once he reaches combat, I hope with a squad It's a matter for the opponent to put attacks onto a 2++ or allow his attack to continue, at WS6 while giving the unit LD9 or +1 to normal.

The only special character I've ever used was Mast of the Forge (on a bike) because I like dropping small plates of death from afar.

agnosto wrote:The only special character I've ever used was Mast of the Forge (on a bike) because I like dropping small plates of death from afar.

Hes just an HQ not a special charracter.