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I also like to get critiques as to points in which i could improve them, but i'm not lowering their points guys!, and @Fexor this unit doesn't contradict any fluff. There was even a sculptor who made al his art using this virus.
But all in all i think 25 points a model is not overcosted, as it is the statline of a wrack with a hexrifle which cost 10 and 15 points. Further more i have only added stealth and infiltrate. And i am thinking of removing stealth. Anyone else with a serious opinion on them, not just having some misplaced hate for Dark Eldar?

The combination of FNP and Stealth feels like it is making them too durable (getting close to Terminator survivability assuming any cover). I agree with Kanluwen that the unit doesn't make a whole lot of sense, considering Hexrifles are very rare in the army. IMO, you may want to restrict unit size and/or tie them to Ancients like was suggested.
Definitely need some tweaks, but not a horrible idea I guess. Honestly though, I think Snipers are the LAST thing the DE army list needs, tbh.

0-1
may only be included if your army includes an Haemonculus Ancient
(generic Dark Eldar Sniper name)
Elite
2 to 5

stats Ws4 bs4 s3 t4 w1 i4 a1 ld8 sv 6+

Wargear
Gnarlskin
Hexrifle
close combat weapon

special rules
Power from pain
Night Vision
Altered Physique
Infiltrate

Removed Stealth as Magister187 pointed out that made them to survivable.
Made them Haemonculus Ancient only. As Mandor Suggested

I don’t think a size restriction is necessary; not for fluff reasons or game play. The hexrifle is just a gun that fires the glass plague – it’s not really a very extricate piece of equipment like power weapons and plasma rifles that would be difficult to produce. The ammo is just the virus itself, it’s not like it would be a hard thing to cultivate. It really is just a modified splinter rifle in design and function when you think about it. I just don’t see the need to impose a number restriction on such a unit aside from having them as an elite chose and requiring a haemonculus.

Certain armies, perhaps the majority of them, would not be affected at all by the turn to glass rule. Only armies with monstrous creatures or squads of multi wound creatures (I am not counting generals who don’t place their IDs in squads, they deserve what they get). In those circumstances all they are giving you is a sniper shot – something ratlings can give guard for less than half the price. For units with multiple wounds like crisis suits it tends to break even. “I just shot your 2 wound crisis suit guy with a sniper shot that has a 2/3 chance of killing him outright if he is wounded”; verse “I just shot your crisis suit guy with two sniper shots”.

I would play test them as you have them first posted which some changes kept in the back of your mind. Like I said above I would consider taking away infiltrate and stealth for a reduction in price; or perhaps reduce the price to 20 points and let the unit purchase stealth and infiltration for 5 point a model as a unit wide upgrade. That way you can introduce one set of rules to your friends and actually playtest the unit using the two different incarnations.

Kanluwen wrote:

Warboss Gutrip wrote:This unit is nowhere near OP.

Looks very well made, though a pts drop may be in order.

Yeah...no.

When you're already well-below the points cost of the base setup...

Then you tack on USRs like candy--you don't get a points drop.

compare them to Eldar Rangers
Rangers cost 19 points instead of 25 points
Rangers have -1WS and T
Rangers have better armor but no FNP
Rangers have ranger rifles which are AP 1 if you roll a 6 to hit.
Rangers have move through cover, something I think this unit should have.
Rangers are troops, which makes them easier to get and scoring.
These guys have Assault 1 weapons so they can move and fire.
Both have rending, so AP2 if they make a 6 to wound
Both have infiltrate
Both have stealth
Both have a 36" range sniper rifle.

Now I fail to see how you think this unit is OP? Is it the extra toughness? The FNP? The ability to move and shoot? Your claim that the special rules are what does it is clearly wrong as Rangers have stealth, infiltrate and move through cover and cost less while being troops.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:So it's "trolling" to say you came up with a bad idea?

Huh. Here I was thinking you wanted comments and criticisms, not just "Good job!".

Next time, don't post it on a public forum. Keep it within your gaming group if you want awkward congratulations for coming up with a fanwank unit loaded with USRs.

Anyways: welcome to ignore. You clearly don't want any kind of input other than people fawning over your unit idea.

its trolling when you clearly dont know what you are talking about. Other units have the same or more special rules without FNP or more specifically PfP, which just about all DE units have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SM scouts have Strength and Toughness 4, 4+ armor, Frag and Krak Grenades, and LOADs of USR: Scouts, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, ATSSNF, Combat Tactics. They are also only 13 points and TROOPS.
They can have camo cloaks, which gives them stealth, and then they only cost 16 points.

Now I know they dont have BS4 or WS4 and they have to take a sergent by default but your claim that the special rules alone make them too expensive is nuts.

Exergy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Warboss Gutrip wrote:This unit is nowhere near OP.

Looks very well made, though a pts drop may be in order.

Yeah...no.

When you're already well-below the points cost of the base setup...

Then you tack on USRs like candy--you don't get a points drop.

compare them to Eldar Rangers
Rangers cost 19 points instead of 25 points
Rangers have -1WS and T
Rangers have better armor but no FNP
Rangers have ranger rifles which are AP 1 if you roll a 6 to hit.
Rangers have move through cover, something I think this unit should have.
Rangers are troops, which makes them easier to get and scoring.
These guys have Assault 1 weapons so they can move and fire.
Both have rending, so AP2 if they make a 6 to wound
Both have infiltrate
Both have stealth
Both have a 36" range sniper rifle.

Now I fail to see how you think this unit is OP? Is it the extra toughness? The FNP? The ability to move and shoot? Your claim that the special rules are what does it is clearly wrong as Rangers have stealth, infiltrate and move through cover and cost less while being troops.

The FNP, the ability to gain Fearless and Furious Charge (on their first turn, mind you, if a Haemonculus joins the unit) and then the high WS, Toughness on par with Marines factor of Wracks coupled with Stealth and a unit filled with weapons which can potentially instagib(via Rending courtesy of the Sniper special rule) the units which are meant to counter Wracks(high wound monstrous creatures/characters).

Rangers are fine as is because they're using a weapon which does not allow them to 'move and fire'. They're also not an assault unit which someone is trying to force to be a sniper unit just because they have a weapon which has the sniper special rule.

I agree with Kanluwen!

The Unit isn't very good as it can possinly instant death C'tan, Wraithlords, Carnifexes and the such like from 36" away all for 125 pointsish!

Thats poor form >.<

>

Maybe a small side note, I wouldn't mind it if I played against you, but if we play at another location, I don't think they are very happy about it.
Isn't there another unit that can fullfill the sniper role, without being custom made?

Yeah there is, but i'm trying to make some units to fit in with the campaign we are going to play.. I'm also working on some IG Commando snipers if you want to know, so we can have sniper missions

loner wrote:Maybe a small side note, I wouldn't mind it if I played against you, but if we play at another location, I don't think they are very happy about it.
Isn't there another unit that can fullfill the sniper role, without being custom made?

Eldar Rangers, quite frankly, could.

Rangers are welcome in the Craftworlds, Exodite Worlds, Corsair Fleets, and Maiden Worlds by all accounts. They're "outcasts" from the main Eldar society, so it's not entirely unfeasible that some may be working for a Corsair who's been hired on by a Kabal.

I can't see the Corsairs or Rangers working for a Haemonculi though.

But within the Dark Eldar codex proper?
Scourges, Trueborn, Dark Eldar Warriors can all feasibly field weapons which emulate the effects of 'sniper' weapons available to other armies.

Just give them Splinter Snipers...

Normal Sniper Rules that Rend on a 5+ Due to the Corrosive Toxins employed by the Haemonculi!

Bloodhorror wrote:I agree with Kanluwen!

The Unit isn't very good as it can possinly instant death C'tan, Wraithlords, Carnifexes and the such like from 36" away all for 125 pointsish!

Thats poor form >.<

>

Cheaper units of dark eldar troops can gun down those units with more reliability than 5 of Tmonster's snipers.

Kanluwen wrote:

Tmonster wrote:nope, since those players ignore the players from our town, i let Dakka decide since Dakka is much smarter.

And Dakka is saying your idea is bad.

If you really want a 'sniper' unit, then use Kabalite Trueborn or Scourges as the base. And don't give them Hexrifles.

Seeing as how Hexrifles are the only Sniper weapon in the DE army, what else would you propose they use?

3 Kabalite True Born with Dark Lances!

Saldiven wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Tmonster wrote:nope, since those players ignore the players from our town, i let Dakka decide since Dakka is much smarter.

And Dakka is saying your idea is bad.

If you really want a 'sniper' unit, then use Kabalite Trueborn or Scourges as the base. And don't give them Hexrifles.

Seeing as how Hexrifles are the only Sniper weapon in the DE army, what else would you propose they use?

"Sniper" weapon doesn't necessarily mean that it is a sniper's weapon though. Antimaterial rifles like the Barrett .50 are employed by sniper teams; but not classified as "sniper rifles" by anyone outside of the media/video games industry.

The only reason it was given "sniper", in my opinion, is simply because it's described as 'needing to hit bare flesh' to be most effective. Some semblance of accuracy is needed, but at its core--it's just a Splinter Rifle with unique ammunition. And Splinter Rifles sure as heck are not "sniper rifles".

Again, i Agree with Kanluwen!

He is the only chappy making any sense in this Fu**storm of confusion at the moment.

Sniper means pinpoint accuaracy in my opinion, and i'm fairly certain people could snipe with all sorts of random gak like a Dark lance, sniping the fuel tanks on the back of a Land Raider. Doesn't make it a Sniper gun does it?

The fact it needs to come into contact with bare flesh means it wouldn't be much good having some Average Joe becoming Trigger Happy and trying to gun someone down with a HexRifle now would it?

You'd need someone Accurate. Someone Skilled enough to make PinPoint shots and get into Eye Visors and through Neck slits. Bring in...

THE SNIPER!

Bloodhorror wrote:I agree with Kanluwen!

The Unit isn't very good as it can possinly instant death C'tan, Wraithlords, Carnifexes and the such like from 36" away all for 125 pointsish!

Thats poor form >.<

>

they could instantdealth one, but C'tan have 4-5 wounds right, Carnifexes have 4 wounds. The instant death on hexrifles is a wounds test, which things with 4 wounds only fail 33% of the time. They also get an armor save most of the time.
If the instantdeath part is too powerful remove it from the unit. Make the instant death special to the character versions only. Give the unit a sergant that can upgrade his rifle to one that can cause instant death for 5-10 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
The FNP, the ability to gain Fearless and Furious Charge (on their first turn, mind you, if a Haemonculus joins the unit) and then the high WS, Toughness on par with Marines factor of Wracks coupled with Stealth and a unit filled with weapons which can potentially instagib(via Rending courtesy of the Sniper special rule) the units which are meant to counter Wracks(high wound monstrous creatures/characters).

Rangers are fine as is because they're using a weapon which does not allow them to 'move and fire'. They're also not an assault unit which someone is trying to force to be a sniper unit just because they have a weapon which has the sniper special rule.

Furious charge is not very good on a unit of 25 points per model, 1 attack, str 3 with no grenades or other CC gear. If charging with FC this unit would hit about as hard as an equal strength unit of tactical marine(who dominate CC?) except even tac marines have grenades, a better save, and cost a whole lot less.
Fearless would require 2 extra pain tokens, and again would not be very useful for a squad that doesnt want to get into close combat.

How do you figure monstrous creatures counter wracks? Wracks have a pair of 4+ posioned weapons. The last thing a MC wants to do is assault Wracks. An MC is unlikely to dish out more than 3 wounds against anything while a decent unit of Wracks is very likely going to hang 4+ wounds on anything with a toughness value. For models that costs 10 points that is not a very good trade.

This DE sniper unit would suck pretty bad in CC on the other hand.

Again look at SM scout squads. They have high strength and toughness as well. They also have almost all the same special rules and pretty good armor built in. And they cost half as much as the unit we are proposing. 2 sniper shots at BS3 is a lot better than 1 sniper shot at BS4 that might, just might instant kill. 2 toughness 4 wounds with a 4+ save is better than 1 toughness 4 6+ FNP wound.

Kanluwen, since you seem to be the leader of my opposition, one question for you. Would you mind them much if they wouldn't get FNP start of the game?

Tmonster wrote:Kanluwen, since you seem to be the leader of my opposition, one question for you. Would you mind them much if they wouldn't get FNP start of the game?

Keep the unit as you originally had them. The unit seems perfectly balanced as is. Maybe a tad on the expensive side, but whatevs, lol.

Your original idea was spot on if anything else.

Kanluwen wrote:
But within the Dark Eldar codex proper?
Scourges, Trueborn, Dark Eldar Warriors can all feasibly field weapons which emulate the effects of 'sniper' weapons available to other armies.

Since when can any of those options pin a target? In game terms none of those fufill the sniper role which is to attempt to pin enemy soldiers

I wouldn’t remove their starting pain token that’s a big part of being wracks. Don’t operate on the amount/intensity of opinions expressed, but the degree of evidenced presented. It’s not a popularity contest that will offer insight into a purposed rule, but a conclusion based on rational deduction and rule comparison – well that and most importantly playtesting.

If you want some idea about their capabilities just mathhammer them against other units of snipers (marine scouts, eldar pathfinders , ratlings) in terms of damage they inflict on varying units and how they absorb enemy retaliation. This might be a good idea just so you have some statistics to support your unit, and to shield them against unwarranted criticism.

Ratlings (with more than twice the model count for the same price) are better at killing 4 wound, 3+ or 2 + armor save monstrous creatures, pathfinders are better at popping MEQs, and marine scouts possess more tactical flexibility. It sounds like you have a fairly open gaming group, with everyone producing their own proposed units; so I don’t think you will have a problem convincing people to play against your snipers. It’s my bet that once you start gaming you will find that you have them overpriced; but then you never know until you start actually playing them.

Possible name: Obsidian Marksman

Tmonster wrote:Kanluwen, since you seem to be the leader of my opposition, one question for you. Would you mind them much if they wouldn't get FNP start of the game?

You're missing the entire point of my biggest issue and what I've been hammering home for multiple posts.

The fact that you seem to think you 'need' to create a unit for an ambush scenario while playing Dark Eldar...

It tells me that people need to step back and actually read the background of their armies better. Dark Eldar don't field snipers, they don't need "hexrifle bearers" or any kind of snipers to begin with.

Their entire method of war hinges upon swift strikes, layered ambushes, and completely crippling their enemies before they can respond.

Snipers really don't fit into that kind of methodology.

If you need an "ambushing unit", then use Wyches, Scourges, Mandrakes, Trueborn, or any number of the Kabal units. They're where you'd see the ambushes coming from, not the bloody Haemonculi Covens--whose methodology of warfare is less of the "swift stroke" and more of the "tide of meatpuppets doped up on combat drugs".

Im with Kanluwen, dark eldar are all about the swift raids and ambushing.... not sitting tight and waiting well who knows what could sneak up on them.
And besides i would not mind facing your "sniper" unit since theres so many things that can pop out and go "wassup! your dead....". And to reiterate what Kanluwen said read up on your armeis background, it will make making custom units alot.... less painfull in the criticism you'll recieve

I'm scared of Kanluwen.

Tremble before the Lord of the Fleet!

From a fluff perspective, Kanluwen would be right.

From a balance perspective, disregarding Kanluwen's point for the moment, the unit is undercosted (base of 40 would be closer to accurate) for what it can do relative to other units in the codex and accounting for the premium that needs to be placed upon massing fire in a unit. This is one thing that 40K does very poorly, as they typically charge the same points for an upgrade across the board (like, say, 20 points for an Agoniser no matter who is using it, be it a 1-attack Beastmaster or a 5-attack Archon) rather than accounting for effectiveness in their pricing. One hexrifle is one thing; 10 is entirely different.

Exactly how is this unit unfluffy?

The hexrifle is something GWS produced, not Tmonster; how is using the hexrifle as the weapon is intended against the fluff? Wracks that serve a haemonculus joined willingly out of reverence to the haemonculus and his craft, I don’t see them rejecting the armaments of their masters when they are all emulating the haemonculi. The wracks already have access to haemonculus wargear; they can take liquifer guns and their sergeant figure has access to an assortment of equipment including the hexrifle. Saying that it is wrong to give wracks a hexrifle ignores the blaring fact the GWS did just that. Also suggesting that it is somehow against the dark eldar mindset to shoot down a target from a stationary distance ignores multiple statements from the codex and other sources that are in complete contradiction to that concept. The dark eldar standard armament is a rapidfire weapon and they place heavy weapons within their squads; whereas the hexrifle is an assault weapon. It is does not prevent rapid movement to be fully utilized like the splinter rifles, dark lances, and splinter cannons do. It is more inline with the concept of an assault driven army than the typical weaponry of the dark eldar.

Math Hammer Time:
When firing at a carnifex with 3+ armor and with all four of its wounds.

Ratling: average wounds per ratling firing: 0.250
Eldar Pathfinder: average wounds per pathfinder firing: 0.389
Dark Eldar sniper; average wounds per firer including wounds generated by insta-kill:
0.438 (carnifex at starting wounds)
0.353 (three wounds left on carnifex)
0.313 (two wounds left on carnifex)
0.250 (one wound left on carnifex)

When you create units of comparable point cost vs carnifex:
10 ratlings (100 points)------2.5 wounds
5 pathfinders (120) ----------1.95 wounds
5 DE snipers (125)------------2.19 wounds if at starting wound count. Number drops if target has lost wounds previously. At three wounds, average is then less than pathfinder’s score. If firing at 1 wound MEQs, wounds generated are one half of the ratlings’ score or 1.25 wounds.

Grunt13 wrote:Exactly how is this unit unfluffy?

The hexrifle is something GWS produced, not Tmonster; how is using the hexrifle as the weapon is intended against the fluff? Wracks that serve a haemonculus joined willingly out of reverence to the haemonculus and his craft, I don’t see them rejecting the armaments of their masters when they are all emulating the haemonculi. The wracks already have access to haemonculus wargear; they can take liquifer guns and their sergeant figure has access to an assortment of equipment including the hexrifle. Saying that it is wrong to give wracks a hexrifle ignores the blaring fact the GWS did just that. Also suggesting that it is somehow against the dark eldar mindset to shoot down a target from a stationary distance ignores multiple statements from the codex and other sources that are in complete contradiction to that concept. The dark eldar standard armament is a rapidfire weapon and they place heavy weapons within their squads; whereas the hexrifle is an assault weapon. It is does not prevent rapid movement to be fully utilized like the splinter rifles, dark lances, and splinter cannons do. It is more inline with the concept of an assault driven army than the typical weaponry of the dark eldar.

This issue at hand is simpler than that.

The OP wants to refine a unit he made up for his local group. He doesn't need people coming here telling him to change his idea completely. It doesn't matter if he made a unit of Grotesques that carry roses and pink paint, and fight by spreading love. His group approves of the idea, and he only wants to refine the unit for fairness. Why people are trying to completely change his idea into something they want is beyond me.

As I have stated before, as a Dark Eldar expert, and a 40k expert in general, the unit as presented in the original post is just fine. It doesn't matter if the Snipers wear purple pants and have Slaneesh demons as pets.

Tmonster asked if the unit is OP. The answer is an easy hells no. Pay 250 points for 10 of them. Enjoy