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would this be OP to be made a choice in the new Dark Eldar Codex?
My gaming group decided everyone could make one choice
points 25 per model
Hexrifle bearers. Elite choice
3 to 10

stats Ws4 bs4 s3 t4 w1 i4 a1 ld8 sv 6+

Wargear
Gnarlskin
Hexrifle

special rules
Power from pain
Night Vision
Altered Physique
Infiltrate
Stealth

sounds snazzy...

but i can see 10 Hexrifles coming your way being a bit of a bitch :/...

Yeah i know it isn't nice, but having played eldar rangers for a while i would like those... should they cost more points?

Uh, alot more.

You halved the price of a Haemonculus, retained their stats and special rules...then added a 15 pt piece of wargear in(for free) along with Infiltrate and Stealth.

Then, you bumped the unit size up by seven, removed the 0-2 restriction on Hexrifles(which is for the entire 'Coven' of 3 Haemonculi and falls under the 'arcane wargear' options rather than standard weapon options for a reason).

These aren't anywhere near being equivalent to Eldar 'Rangers'. This is like, for lack of a better analogy, Marine Force Commanders coming in groups of 10 and giving them all Terminator Armour and Assault Cannons for free, then halving the basic point cost on them.

If you want Dark Eldar Snipers, you're better off using the Kabalite Trueborn as the basis. The unit size is right, the points cost is right, etc.

Give them the option for Stealth/Infiltrate at around ~2 points each. Allow 'up to four Kabalite Trueborn to replace their Splinter Rifles with Reapers(same stats as an Eldar Sniper Rifle, but with Poisoned added in) for +15 points per model'.

Boom. You've got Dark Eldar Snipers who aren't just Haemonculi with their points costs halved and free options just because.

first off there is no restriction on the amount of hexrifles in a dark eldar army. And their stats are wracks stats who cost 10 points a model. Plus 15 points for a hexrifle.. and then i gave them stealth and infiltrate.

make them 30 or 35 points each maybe?

An Extra 10 points for Infiltrate and Stealth?

Actually, there is a restriction on the amount of Hexrifles in a Dark Eldar army. Read your codex.

They are an option for Haemonculus and Haemonculus Ancients.

Hexrifles are an 'Arcane Wargear' option for said Haemonculi/Ancients--which they can only possess up to two pieces of.

Oh, and for the record: you used the wrong example for Wracks. Wracks cannot purchase Hexrifles. The Acothyst can.

And he's not "10 points". He's 20. Then another 15 for the Hexrifle...

Either way, my point still stands that this is a horribly designed unit. It's undercosted, it's bloated with special rules,

no you can take 2 arcane options per heamonculus not per 3!! you are the one that should read his codex. I am making a new unit, based on the stats of a wrack with a hexrifle.

Tmonster wrote:no you can take 2 arcane options per heamonculus not per 3!! you are the one that should read his codex. I am making a new unit, based on the stats of a wrack with a hexrifle.

Yes, I corrected myself in my second post.

However, you can still only have six Haemonculi per army.

And even taking a full six Troop choices of Wracks allowable by having Haemonculi as HQs(and paying 35 points to have Acothysts with Hexrifles in the units) you can still have a maximum of 12 Hexrifles in your entire army.

To give you a comparison:
Taking 6x units of 3 Wracks with an Acothyst with a Hexrifle in each will come out to 55 points per unit with a single Hexrifle shot.
To get 6 Hexrifle shots, you're paying 330 points.

Then 6x Haemonculi, all with Hexrifles, are going to come out to 390 points.

To get the maximum Hexrifles in your force, you're paying 720 points.

That includes no Stealth or Infiltrate.

By comparison:

You're proposing a unit that allows up to 30 Hexrifles to be fielded, with the Stealth and Infiltrate USRs and costing 10 points less than the unit it's based upon.
And even fully maxxed out...it comes to be just 30 points more than 12 Hexrifles fielded across an entire army?

Something got lost in this idea. There's a reason Hexrifles are restricted to heroes/unit leaders and not just thrown all over the place.

okay, so ill make them a unit of up to 5 and you can only take one unit in your army.

Wasn't there a rule that if you made your own unit that the others decided the points?

nope, since those players ignore the players from our town, i let Dakka decide since Dakka is much smarter.

Tmonster wrote:nope, since those players ignore the players from our town, i let Dakka decide since Dakka is much smarter.

And Dakka is saying your idea is bad.

If you really want a 'sniper' unit, then use Kabalite Trueborn or Scourges as the base. And don't give them Hexrifles.

Shatter Rifles maybe?

Sx AP5 Heavy 1

Always wounds on a 4+

But on a 6
Roll another dice and consult this table

1-2 Takes a Wound with no armour save
3-4 Takes 2 wounds with no armour save
5 Takes a Wound with no saves of any kinds
6 Takes 2 wounds with no saves of any kinds and you lose a model from the unit as the rifle absorbs the Gunners energy

Yeah...no.

Look at any 'unit' of Snipers that exist within the game. They very rarely have any kind of special rules attached to their rifles.

The only unit that, off the top of my head, is a 'sniper' and has special rules attached to their rifle is the Vindicare. Which could only be fielded in small numbers...much like the Hexrifle can.

Yeah but they will carry hexrifles. Just wondered about increases in points not the unit. And i'd like to see other people express their opinions other than just kanluwen. Although you did make me think about them being rare... Maybe ill make them. Only if there is a haemonculus ancient in the army. And they are for a campaign ambush scenario not ordinary 40k. For that i use only the unholy codex of pure evil. Ehm dark eldar

Tmonster wrote:Yeah but they will carry hexrifles. Just wondered about increases in points not the unit. And i'd like to see other people express their opinions other than just kanluwen. Although you did make me think about them being rare... Maybe ill make them. Only if there is a haemonculus ancient in the army. And they are for a campaign ambush scenario not ordinary 40k. For that i use only the unholy codex of pure evil. Ehm dark eldar

Why would they 'carry hexrifles'?

Hexrifles are not 'sniper rifles'. They have the 'sniper' rule not because of them being highly accurate or anything of that nature...but because it's a precision weapon. Read the description. It fires crystalline cylinders that have to be delivered exactly to the bare flesh of a target, otherwise it doesn't work.

Add to it that it's actually an "assault" weapon, it makes for a poor sniper rifle. It's meant to deliver a burst to a target, then the bearer charges into combat.

If you want a sniper rifle?
The Dark Lance, Heat Lance, Disintegrator Cannon, or hell even the Splinter Cannon make better 'bases' to work from.

As it stands though, snipers don't really 'fit' with the methodology of the Dark Eldar. They're raiders first and foremost and even their ranged troops want to get stuck into close combat.

Snipers don't really fit in with that. They require patience, timing, and all kinds of restraint...which the Dark Eldar lack.

If the mission scenario is an 'ambush', you don't need to invent a unit when your entire army's background is about ambushes, raids, and surgical strikes.

Tmonster wrote:would this be OP to be made a choice in the new Dark Eldar Codex?
My gaming group decided everyone could make one choice
points 25 per model
Hexrifle bearers. Elite choice
3 to 10

stats Ws4 bs4 s3 t4 w1 i4 a1 ld8 sv 6+

Wargear
Gnarlskin
Hexrifle

special rules
Power from pain
Night Vision
Altered Physique
Infiltrate
Stealth

This is a very well made squad. It has the usual fragile DE disadvantages. Take 10 of these, pay 250 points, have 3 die, and run off the board due to no leadership tricks. Yeah, you can stick two haemonculi with them, but now you have a 350 point unit that don't do jack versus vehicles, and have most shots just bounce off of MEQs anyway.

I like it. I would even hazard to say these guys might even be too expensive. When compared to the other elite choices in the DE codex, people MIGHT take a squad of these if they were even 20 points each. Personally, I wouldn't, even at 20 points a model. Trueborn are just that good.

Nor does a Fast, Scout, Deep Strike Skimmer-Gunship-Transport that can even deploy its cargo when moving flat out and doesn't even belong to their faction fit the Imperial Guard.

I think the idea for the sniper unit is fine, but I'd change the rules for using them a bit.

For example, you could make the unit a retinue for an Haemonculus Ancient with up to five Wracks. These Wracks can each take one weapon from the Arcane Weaponry section in the codex. This way, you'd bind them to the Ancient, limit their numbers and give them a reason to exist (bodyguards to the Ancient). And it would make sense that an Ancient would equip his bodyguard with the best weapons available. And these could be Hexrifles, but also Liquifiers, etc.

Mandor wrote:Nor does a Fast, Scout, Deep Strike Skimmer-Gunship-Transport that can even deploy its cargo when moving flat out and doesn't even belong to their faction fit the Imperial Guard.

Oh look. A Dark Eldar player complaining about the Guard. How original.

The Vendetta was a last minute addition by the author of the Guard Codex because, supposedly, GW didn't allow the Vulture Gunship in. I will wholeheartedly agree with you that yes, the Vendetta is a terrible fit for the Guard book. It should not have been added, the Valkyrie instead should have been allowed the option of extra Fuel Tanks and allowed to carry Sentinels.
Beyond that though:

Grav-Chutes are a perfectly representative way for deployment, considering the regiment that was iconically connected to the Valkyrie(the Elysian Drop Troops) was known for having used them as such--and the Valkyrie was less of a 'skimmer' and more of a 'flyer'.

And by the by? The Imperial Guard have Valkyries. The only thing is that the crews are supplied by the Imperial Navy.

I think the idea for the sniper unit is fine, but I'd change the rules for using them a bit.

For example, you could make the unit a retinue for an Haemonculus Ancient with up to five Wracks. These Wracks can each take one weapon from the Arcane Weaponry section in the codex. This way, you'd bind them to the Ancient, limit their numbers and give them a reason to exist (bodyguards to the Ancient). And it would make sense that an Ancient would equip his bodyguard with the best weapons available. And these could be Hexrifles, but also Liquifiers, etc.

Once again: hexrifles are not sniper rifles. They're not even really 'designated marksman rifles' like the Guard use on their sniper teams.

They're just bizzare pieces of tech that were given the Sniper special rule god only knows why. They're assault weapons for heaven's sake.

And quite frankly?

If snipers don't make sense for the Kabalite Dark Eldar there's no way in conception that they make sense for the Haemonculi Covens.

Once again: hexrifles are not sniper rifles. They're not even really 'designated marksman rifles' like the Guard use on their sniper teams.

Honest to god, who cares. It works good for this kind of a unit.

Kanluwen is just trying to assist in making a unit that fits in with the lore and ideology of the Army you're trying to make a unit for. There's nothing wrong with him pointing out that he's making a character that's OP and unfitting for the Army design philosophy.

*shrug* He's just trying to help make it fit the fluff as it's written already. Just because you don't like that he's criticizing the unit, it's what you wanted when you brought it in here, it's just that he happens to disagree with a few things.

Tmonster wrote:would this be OP to be made a choice in the new Dark Eldar Codex?
My gaming group decided everyone could make one choice
points 25 per model
Hexrifle bearers. Elite choice
3 to 10

stats Ws4 bs4 s3 t4 w1 i4 a1 ld8 sv 6+

Wargear
Gnarlskin
Hexrifle

special rules
Power from pain
Night Vision
Altered Physique
Infiltrate
Stealth

seems nice to me. The problem is mandrakes are supposed to be the infiltrators in the DE and apparently GW has some unspoken rule that ALL DE infilitrators must be horrible.
I would give them move through cover as well. They are very likely to be moving through cover.

This unit is nowhere near OP.

Looks very well made, though a pts drop may be in order.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:This unit is nowhere near OP.

Looks very well made, though a pts drop may be in order.

Yeah...no.

When you're already well-below the points cost of the base setup...

Then you tack on USRs like candy--you don't get a points drop.

Would anyone care to run some mathammer numbers for these? Considering they have zero utility against vehicles, and take slots away from units that can actually kill armour (trueborn), they don't seem particularly good.

@ Kanluwen -

It may seem silly, but don't forget that, when comparing these to wracks, you are dropping the twin poisoned weapons. You are basically swapping these for infiltrate and stealth, which is a fairly reasonable tradeoff. I don't think I need to highlight how bad this unit is in combat, especially when a 5-man combat squad will tie up this 250pt unit for the whole game. In honesty, it's not like hexrifles have ridiculuous offensive power anyway, in honesty, you might drop one MC or damage a squad of nobz, but you cost 250pts; also, you can't infilitrate anywhere near the enemy for fear of being assaulted and tarpitted; 250pts of waste.

Definitely not OP. Probably drop back to 22/23pts.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:Would anyone care to run some mathammer numbers for these? Considering they have zero utility against vehicles, and take slots away from units that can actually kill armour (trueborn), they don't seem particularly good.

"Considering they have zero utility against vehicles" doesn't matter. This guy clearly isn't going to be running a list where Trueborns are going to be fielded, and Haemonculi Covens aren't exactly suffering against mech lists from what I've seen locally.

@ Kanluwen -

It may seem silly, but don't forget that, when comparing these to wracks, you are dropping the twin poisoned weapons. You are basically swapping these for infiltrate and stealth, which is a fairly reasonable tradeoff. I don't think I need to highlight how bad this unit is in combat, especially when a 5-man combat squad will tie up this 250pt unit for the whole game. In honesty, it's not like hexrifles have ridiculuous offensive power anyway, in honesty, you might drop one MC or damage a squad of nobz, but you cost 250pts; also, you can't infilitrate anywhere near the enemy for fear of being assaulted and tarpitted; 250pts of waste.

Definitely not OP. Probably drop back to 22/23pts.

When comparing them against a unit of Wracks--you're not really doing them a 'good' comparison.

A unit of Wracks would be getting a single Hexrifle shot from the Acothyst(and he still retains his twin poisoned weapons), two Liquifier Gun shots(assuming you use a full 10 man unit)...and that Hexrifle gets to hide within the unit. There's also no Stealth or Infiltration on that unit.

And the Hexrifle is costing 35 points(10 points for the Wrack, 10 points for the Acothyst upgrade, 15 points for the Hexrifle) on the Acothyst...which actually has the same statline as a Wrack, barring an increase of Leadership(+1).
And again...no stealth/infiltration.

So no. Not 22/23 points. There's a problem when you've upped your basic unit's special rules...and fielding 18 more hexrifles than the army limit is somehow just 30 more points than the entire current army limitation of 12.

I like this unit, I think it makes sense for a haemonculi covens. Wracks already possess a BS of 4 and it is not a revolutionary concept of giving them ballistic weapons as their acothyst already has such options – they are just modified dark eldar after all. It would be a particularly helpful to players fielding exclusively haemconculi coven armies who could use a supporting ballistic unit.

Mathhammering would just show that they are basically BS 4 AP 4 snipers that can move and fire with a chance to insta kill multiple wound creatures. I bet that a unit of 24-point eldar pathfinders has a better chance at taking out a carnifex than they do - they would probable be most successful targeting units of multiple wound targets like nob, tyranid warriors, and crisis suits. The hexrifle is just not as powerful in the game as it comes across in the rules. They might get real lucky on a monstrous creature or take an additional wound off a crisis suit unit, but I don’t think their turn to glass effect surpasses the eldar long rifle’s ability to score AP 1 shots 1/3 of the time.

How attached are you to their infiltration and stealth rules? Removing those rules would help separated the unit from other snipers in the game and move them over to a supporting role – units that pepper the enemy with fire as the wracks, talos, and grotesques advance upon them. Also, I would make it so a haemonculus is required to unlock the unit for play. I would set them around 20 points if you removed infiltration/stealth. Keep them at 25 if you keep those rules. Let us know how they playtest when you start using them, I definitely wouldn’t have a problem playing against the unit you created. Oh, and you need to think of a cool name to give them.

Kanluwen wrote:

Warboss Gutrip wrote:Would anyone care to run some mathammer numbers for these? Considering they have zero utility against vehicles, and take slots away from units that can actually kill armour (trueborn), they don't seem particularly good.

"Considering they have zero utility against vehicles" doesn't matter. This guy clearly isn't going to be running a list where Trueborns are going to be fielded, and Haemonculi Covens aren't exactly suffering against mech lists from what I've seen locally.

@ Kanluwen -

It may seem silly, but don't forget that, when comparing these to wracks, you are dropping the twin poisoned weapons. You are basically swapping these for infiltrate and stealth, which is a fairly reasonable tradeoff. I don't think I need to highlight how bad this unit is in combat, especially when a 5-man combat squad will tie up this 250pt unit for the whole game. In honesty, it's not like hexrifles have ridiculuous offensive power anyway, in honesty, you might drop one MC or damage a squad of nobz, but you cost 250pts; also, you can't infilitrate anywhere near the enemy for fear of being assaulted and tarpitted; 250pts of waste.

Definitely not OP. Probably drop back to 22/23pts.

When comparing them against a unit of Wracks--you're not really doing them a 'good' comparison.

A unit of Wracks would be getting a single Hexrifle shot from the Acothyst(and he still retains his twin poisoned weapons), two Liquifier Gun shots(assuming you use a full 10 man unit)...and that Hexrifle gets to hide within the unit. There's also no Stealth or Infiltration on that unit.

And the Hexrifle is costing 35 points(10 points for the Wrack, 10 points for the Acothyst upgrade, 15 points for the Hexrifle) on the Acothyst...which actually has the same statline as a Wrack, barring an increase of Leadership(+1).
And again...no stealth/infiltration.

So no. Not 22/23 points. There's a problem when you've upped your basic unit's special rules...and fielding 18 more hexrifles than the army limit is somehow just 30 more points than the entire current army limitation of 12.

First off your not right Kanluwen, as everybody around you has been trying to explain you they are not OP. Secondly, during the process it has already been mentioned that the maximum number of them will be 5 for your entire army. And third i do use trueborn squads with blaster in all my army lists, and this unit is only for certain scenario's in a campaign. So please stop trolling this thread. And they are just the statline of a wrack not an acothyst, look at the number of attacks.

So it's "trolling" to say you came up with a bad idea?

Huh. Here I was thinking you wanted comments and criticisms, not just "Good job!".

Next time, don't post it on a public forum. Keep it within your gaming group if you want awkward congratulations for coming up with a fanwank unit loaded with USRs.

Anyways: welcome to ignore. You clearly don't want any kind of input other than people fawning over your unit idea.