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nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - are psykers models?

A: Yes

then they are affected by Mindworm.

Hideously simple.

Exactly.

Btw, like i asked before, what are the odds anyway of it failing?

Furiouso Librarian in a Stormraven.

Stormraven is destroyed, Furiouso disembarks.

Must the Furiouso take a Pinning test?

Pinning tests are taken by models when they are forced to disembark, models can only take a pinning test if they have a Leadership value, Furiousos have a Leadership value for all psychic purposes, Psykers fall under the category of models that must take a pinning test, so the Furiouso has to take a pinning test?

Two things are wrong with your side of the argument, nos/Mann/Formosa:

1) Mind Worm specifically states that it only affects models with a Leadership characteristic, and Furiousos do not have one.
2) Mind Worm is not a "psychic purpose". You don't have to be a psyker to be affected by it.

somerandomdude wrote:Furiouso Librarian in a Stormraven.

Stormraven is destroyed, Furiouso disembarks.

Must the Furiouso take a Pinning test?

Pinning tests are taken by models when they are forced to disembark, models can only take a pinning test if they have a Leadership value, Furiousos have a Leadership value for all psychic purposes, Psykers fall under the category of models that must take a pinning test, so the Furiouso has to take a pinning test?

Two things are wrong with your side of the argument, nos/Mann/Formosa:

1) Mind Worm specifically states that it only affects models with a Leadership characteristic, and Furiousos do not have one.
2) Mind Worm is not a "psychic purpose". You don't have to be a psyker to be affected by it.

... sigh

its not the furioso were talking about, its the Liby Dread... the one with a LD value (in certain cases)

it bogs down to this

"for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10."

Mindworm affects EVERYTHING, NO EXCEPTIONS, ASLONG AS IT HAS A LD VALUE.... EVERYTHING. PSYKERS ARE INCLUDED IN EVERYTHING... because its... EVERYTHING, there is no need to specify psykers because they are part of EVERYTHING.. simples

is it wargear that affects psykers? No
is it a special rule? Yes
is it a psychic power that requires a ld value? Yes
Does it affect psykers? YES!!!
Counts as LD 10... YES!!

btw im enjoying this debate

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - are psykers models?

A: Yes

then they are affected by Mindworm.

Hideously simple.

Actually no, psykers are not models. Psyker is a special rule that a model has. Saying a psyker is a model is like saying Titanic Might on Marneus Calgar is a model, or Power through pain on dark eldar is a model. They are not a model, they are a special rule.

Formosa wrote:... sigh

its not the furioso were talking about, its the Liby Dread... the one with a LD value (in certain cases)

Reread my post and then tell me who I'm talking about. First two words are "Furiouso Librarian" (wrong spelling on my part unfortunately). I chose to shorthand it to Furioso from that point on because A) it's one less word to type and B) I can't stand the term "Libby Dread" - don't know why.

it bogs down to this

"for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10."

Mindworm affects EVERYTHING, NO EXCEPTIONS, ASLONG AS IT HAS A LD VALUE.... EVERYTHING. PSYKERS ARE INCLUDED IN EVERYTHING... because its... EVERYTHING, there is no need to specify psykers because they are part of EVERYTHING.. simples

is it wargear that affects psykers? No
is it a special rule? Yes
is it a psychic power that requires a ld value? Yes
Does it affect psykers? YES!!!
Counts as LD 10... YES!!

btw im enjoying this debate

The Mind Worm effect on psykers is as incidental as the pinning effect on psykers (which you didn't address). Without specifying "psykers" it just affects models (some of which may in fact be psykers). I see what you are saying, and I understand why you say that, but Mind Worm doesn't say it affects psykers.

somerandomdude wrote:

Formosa wrote:... sigh

its not the furioso were talking about, its the Liby Dread... the one with a LD value (in certain cases)

Reread my post and then tell me who I'm talking about. First two words are "Furiouso Librarian" sorry dude my bad (wrong spelling on my part unfortunately). I chose to shorthand it to Furioso from that point on because A) it's one less word to type and B) I can't stand the term "Libby Dread" - don't know why. now you mention it, yeah it is kind of "odd"

it bogs down to this

"for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10."

Mindworm affects EVERYTHING, NO EXCEPTIONS, ASLONG AS IT HAS A LD VALUE.... EVERYTHING. PSYKERS ARE INCLUDED IN EVERYTHING... because its... EVERYTHING, there is no need to specify psykers because they are part of EVERYTHING.. simples

is it wargear that affects psykers? No
is it a special rule? Yes
is it a psychic power that requires a ld value? Yes
Does it affect psykers? YES!!!
Counts as LD 10... YES!!

btw im enjoying this debate

The Mind Worm effect on psykers is as incidental as the pinning effect on psykers (which you didn't address). Without specifying "psykers" it just affects models (some of which may in fact be psykers). I see what you are saying, and I understand why you say that, but Mind Worm doesn't say it affects psykers.

pinning does not happen as it does not fit into the criteria under the "for be affected by psychic powers" pinning is not a psychic power
mind worm is a psychic power that needs a ld ability, under the FaQ it "counts as ld 10" when being targeted by psychic powers that affect psykers AND require a LD test, mind worm is both.
I see your argument, but i fail to see how "affects EVERYTHING" does not include psykers, as they are part of everything.

if not, then ANYTHING with a diferent rules, such as montrous creature, would be unaffected by this power, as it does not specifically state "affects MC's"

Libby dreads cannot be pinned, as walkers are vehicles and vehicles are unable to go to ground.

Are models with the "psyker" attribute still models? Yes
Then they can be affected by mind worm

I seriously did not expect to have to type that out, I thought it was abundantly clear. My apologies for expecting more....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Libby dreads cannot be pinned, as walkers are vehicles and vehicles are unable to go to ground.

Are models with the "psyker" attribute still models? Yes
Then they can be affected by mind worm

I seriously did not expect to have to type that out, I thought it was abundantly clear. My apologies for expecting more....

i know what you mean lol, give us DA players something cool dammit!

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - are psykers models?

A: Yes

then they are affected by Mindworm.

Hideously simple.

Models can have the special rule: Psyker, but special rule: Psyker is not a model, it is a special rule.

"being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers"

As per the FaQ it has to specify that it targets psykers for the dread Librarian's LD value to come into play.

By your interpretation, since you say you can use Mindworm on Dread Librarians, you should also claim that Shackle soul can be used on Dread Librarians...

Shackle soul says 'psychic shooting atttack, autohits an enemy unit within 12". until the end of its next turn, the target unit must pass a LD test each time it wishes to move, run, shoot, or assault- if the test is failed, the action cannot be performed.' paraphrased

But this is incorrect. It has to affect Psykers for the Dread to use its LD for Psychic purposes. Special rule: Psyker is not a Model/Unit it is a special rule.

to quote you nos:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Hideously simple.

Psykers with the special rule are models, yes. However as the FAQ has pointed out, only those abilities that state they affect models with the psyker special rule (or just psykers as they are often worded) will affect the Furioso librarian for leadership purposes.

Let's look at the Furioso Librarian Dreadnought stats

WS- 6
BS- 4
S- 6

Armour
F- 13
S- 12
B- 10
I- 4
A- 2(3)

I see no leadership in that profile. So you're going to force the dreadnought to make a test on something that is not in the profile? It can't test on leadership because it does not have one. Strike one, it has no leadership so mind worm does not work. We see however that it does have a special rule that grants it a leadership in certain circumstances, which one of those is a psychic attack that effects psykers and requires a leadership value. Does mind worm target psykers, no it does not. It targets models. It will work on a model without the psyker rule, it will work on a model with the psyker rule if it has a leadership value. However, it will not work on a vehicle as a vehicle has no leadership value to test against. You are attacking the model, not the model's special rule as the FAQ points out.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I seriously did not expect to have to type that out, I thought it was abundantly clear. My apologies for expecting more....

Talking to other people as if they were children doesn't win debates. Pointing out one side of the argument and backing it up with actual rules does as well. Don't try to inflate your own importance please, try to stick to the points at hand.

Nos and Formosa have it.

The FAQ answer asks if the power or wargear in question affects psykers, and requires a LD score.

It does NOT ask if the power or wargear in question ONLY AFFECTS or SPECIFCALLY ONLY TARGETS psykers. That's where people are going wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I seriously did not expect to have to type that out, I thought it was abundantly clear. My apologies for expecting more....

This is unnecessary and does not help anyone in this discussion. I'd appreciate it if you would contribute to the debate with some sort of civility.

FWIW, I don't know of any rule that says Vehicles can not be pinned, but that wasn't the point of my post:

DeathReaper wrote:By your interpretation, since you say you can use Mindworm on Dread Librarians, you should also claim that Shackle soul can be used on Dread Librarians...

This was the type of example I was getting at with the pinning post above.

Mannahnin wrote:Nos and Formosa have it.

The FAQ answer asks if the power or wargear in question affects psykers, and requires a LD score.

It does NOT ask if the power or wargear in question ONLY AFFECTS or SPECIFCALLY ONLY TARGETS psykers. That's where people are going wrong.

The problem is that by saying it affects them, every piece of wargear and every rule that requires ANY unit to take a leadership test will affect the dreadnought. That means that ANY piece of wargear that forces a model or unit to take a leadership test will affect a librarian. An example is those I listed earlier Direswords, Death Masks, and Obsidian Orbs. You mean to tell me that I payed to have a vehicle that could use leadership for psychic purposes (which has to affect the psyker portion of the model, not the model itself), and is now affected by single piece of wargear or BRB rule that mentions taking a leadership affects the librarian?

The librarian dreadnought does not have a leadership on the profile. So Mind worm has no affect because there is no leadership and nothing in the description of the power that activates the psyker portion of the rules on the dreadnought forcing it to have a leadership value.

mind worm Specifally effects... Everything.. psykers are included in everything, it also requires a ld value, to which the special rule and the FAQ gives it, this is 10.

the point where everyone is getting mixed up is assuming some sort of immunity because it is a vehicle, this is irrelevent, as it has a LD value for the purposes of psychic attacks/special rules/wargear that affect psykers, mind worm 100% does affect psykers (Ref: EVERYTHK!!1!1)
and that ld value is all mind worm needs.

as the rules itself states
"Can affect any creature with a leadership value"
this leadership value may be "temporary" but its still there

It really, from me, depends on how liberal you read the rules:

Rules -

Psyker is a special rule, not a model.

Mind Worm is a psychic power that affects any model with a Leadership characteristic.

Librarian Dreadnoughts, when effected by psychic powers, special rules, or wargear that effect Psykers, they count as Leadership 10.

Librarian Dreadnoughts, being a vehicle, which is a model, does not have the Leadership characteristic.

Questions -

Can Mind Worm target a vehicle or a model without a Leadership characteristic? Yes.

Can Mind Worm target a vehicle or model with a Leadership characteristic? Yes.

Can Mind Worm target a Psyker? No.

Is Mind Worm a psychic power? Yes.

If a Llibrarian Dreadnought is affect by a psychic power, does it gain a Leadership characteristic? Yes.

Can Mind Worm affect Psykers? Yes. (While you can not target Psykers, you can target and affect models that are Psykers)

Can Mind Worm target a Librarian Dreadnought? Yes.

Reasoning -

A Librarian Dreadnought does not have a Leadership characteristic but psychic powers (nor Mind Worm) does not care about if it can target models with/without a Leadership characteristic. But Mind Worm does say that it can only affect (not target) models with a Leadership characteristic. So once Mind Worm targets a Librarian Dreadnought, the Leadership characteristic kicks in, giving it a Leadership of 10 which satisifies Mind Worms affect portion.

I say yes, it can target it most definitally, and by the FAQ, can affect it.

EDIT:

After rereading the FAQ and some other posts, now I am not so sure. According to the FAQ, it sounds like if a piece of Wargear could target a model and they must pass a Leadership test or run, then it could target a Librarian Dreadnought. But unless vehicles are Fearless (or some other rule), this does not quite make any sense (unless they think Librarian Dreadnoughts now fear mortality which gives them their link to use psychic powers) to have vehicles run in fear.

When the FAQ says "...affects Psykers, they count..." we have no way of knowing if they mean affects Psykers as a specific clause or affects Psykers in general. Using the ONLY argument does provide a small hint in that things that ONLY affect Psykers, which Mind Worm most definitally affects beyond only Psykers so Mind Worm can target but not affect the Dreadnought (because it never triggers the FAQ). With that argument, I can agree that sense it does not state ONLY, Mind Worm can target and affect because Mind Worm can affect Psykers.

cheers zyllos for putting it in a way my bad english could not.

Formosa wrote:mind worm Specifally effects... Everything.. psykers are included in everything, it also requires a ld value, to which the special rule and the FAQ gives it, this is 10.

the point where everyone is getting mixed up is assuming some sort of immunity because it is a vehicle, this is irrelevent, as it has a LD value for the purposes of psychic attacks/special rules/wargear that affect psykers, mind worm 100% does affect psykers (Ref: EVERYTHK!!1!1)
and that ld value is all mind worm needs.

as the rules itself states
"Can affect any creature with a leadership value"
this leadership value may be "temporary" but its still there

It targets any model on the table in range and LOS, true. It only affects models with a leadership value, true. It affects the SPECIAL RULE (not model, rule) psyker, false. It affects a unit if they have a leadership characteristic, but does the dreadnought have a leadership characteristic? No, it has a special rule. Unless it states that it affects that special rule (A la Hammer of Witches, Crucible of Malediction, any rules concerning the Culexus Assassin, Most of the wargear in the Witchhunters Codex, and others) called psyker, it is treated as a regular dreadnought with no leadership value. There are a plethora of psychic powers, wargear, and special rules that affect psykers, and SPECIFY that they affect models with the rule. Mind worm says any models with a leadership, but because it has no effect on the psyker rule itself, the dreadnought does not have a leadership value.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Formosa wrote:mind worm Specifally effects... Everything.. psykers are included in everything, it also requires a ld value, to which the special rule and the FAQ gives it, this is 10.

the point where everyone is getting mixed up is assuming some sort of immunity because it is a vehicle, this is irrelevent, as it has a LD value for the purposes of psychic attacks/special rules/wargear that affect psykers, mind worm 100% does affect psykers (Ref: EVERYTHK!!1!1)
and that ld value is all mind worm needs.

as the rules itself states
"Can affect any creature with a leadership value"
this leadership value may be "temporary" but its still there

It targets any model on the table in range and LOS, true. It only affects models with a leadership value, true. It affects the SPECIAL RULE (not model, rule) psyker, false. It affects a unit if they have a leadership characteristic, but does the dreadnought have a leadership characteristic? No, it has a special rule. Unless it states that it affects that special rule (A la Hammer of Witches, Crucible of Malediction, any rules concerning the Culexus Assassin, Most of the wargear in the Witchhunters Codex, and others) called psyker, it is treated as a regular dreadnought with no leadership value. There are a plethora of psychic powers, wargear, and special rules that affect psykers, and SPECIFY that they affect models with the rule. Mind worm says any models with a leadership, but because it has no effect on the psyker rule itself, the dreadnought does not have a leadership value.

Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for
all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood
and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10.

show me where in there is says
"must be able to SPECIFICALLY target psykers"

it says "for being affected by psychic power, special rules or wargear that AFFECT psykers AND require a ld test"
there is really no 2 ways about this, like i said earlier its cut and dry, it affects the dread, it take a test and ....

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Formosa wrote:mind worm Specifally effects... Everything.. psykers are included in everything, it also requires a ld value, to which the special rule and the FAQ gives it, this is 10.

the point where everyone is getting mixed up is assuming some sort of immunity because it is a vehicle, this is irrelevent, as it has a LD value for the purposes of psychic attacks/special rules/wargear that affect psykers, mind worm 100% does affect psykers (Ref: EVERYTHK!!1!1)
and that ld value is all mind worm needs.

as the rules itself states
"Can affect any creature with a leadership value"
this leadership value may be "temporary" but its still there

It targets any model on the table in range and LOS, true. It only affects models with a leadership value, true. It affects the SPECIAL RULE (not model, rule) psyker, false. It affects a unit if they have a leadership characteristic, but does the dreadnought have a leadership characteristic? No, it has a special rule. Unless it states that it affects that special rule (A la Hammer of Witches, Crucible of Malediction, any rules concerning the Culexus Assassin, Most of the wargear in the Witchhunters Codex, and others) called psyker, it is treated as a regular dreadnought with no leadership value. There are a plethora of psychic powers, wargear, and special rules that affect psykers, and SPECIFY that they affect models with the rule. Mind worm says any models with a leadership, but because it has no effect on the psyker rule itself, the dreadnought does not have a leadership value.

While I agree with Mind Worm can not AFFECT targets without a Leadership characteristic, can Mind Worm TARGET a model without a Leadership characteristic? I think Mind Worm is a psychic ability that targets a model, then the affected model, if it has a Leadership characteristic, takes the test. The Librarian Dreadnought does have a Leadership characteristic when it is targetted by a psychic power.

Of course, like I said earlier after an edit, this also opens up the Librarnian Dreadnought to wargear, psychic abilities, and special rules that make it take Leadership tests (even if it does not make sense). I think this FAQ, honestly, broke their own rules by allowing a vehicle take a Leadership test due to wargear, psychic abilities, and special rules.

EDIT:

Another thing is what do they mean by "...affects Psykers..."? Mind Worm can affect Psykers, but can not target Psykers. But if it said "...targets Psykers..." then this whole mess would have been alliveated because Mind Worm can not target Psykers.

i think we can all agree on this

GW mess's with its own rules far too much

If we want to really get technical, nothing affects psykers unless the weapon/rule/psychic power/book/whatever says it does. The reason is Psykers are a rule, not a model. I can use mind worm on a Farseer because it has a leadership characteristic on it's profile, and is a model. I can use it on a land raider, but it does nothing because it has no leadership characteristic on its profile even though it is a model. It can be USED on a librarian dreadnought, but it does nothing as the librarian dreadnought has no leadership on its profile. To give that librarian dreadnought a leadership something must state it affects psykers, not just something that blankets every model in existance. There is nothing in the power that states it works on models with psykers, only that it works on models with a leadership value which a librarian furioso dreadnought, does NOT have.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zyllos wrote:
While I agree with Mind Worm can not AFFECT targets without a Leadership characteristic, can Mind Worm TARGET a model without a Leadership characteristic?

Yes

Zyllos wrote:I think Mind Worm is a psychic ability that targets a model, then the affected model, if it has a Leadership characteristic, takes the test. The Librarian Dreadnought does have a Leadership characteristic when it is targetted by a psychic power.

It has no leadership value listed on the profile. No leadership, but it has a special rule. The rule only kicks in when it affects the special rule on the model, Psyker, not the model itself. It must target the special rule, not target the model itself to give the dreadnought a leadership value.

Formosa wrote:

Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for
all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood
and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10.

show me where in there is says
"must be able to SPECIFICALLY target psykers"

it says "for being affected by psychic power, special rules or wargear that AFFECT psykers AND require a ld test"
there is really no 2 ways about this, like i said earlier its cut and dry, it affects the dread, it take a test and ....

Bold and underlined.

Does mindworm say it affects Psykers? (I.E. does it single out models with the Special Rule: Psyker?)

Lone Dragoon wrote:...nothing affects psykers unless the weapon/rule/psychic power/book/whatever says it does. The reason is Psykers are a rule, not a model...
It has no leadership value listed on the profile. No leadership, but it has a special rule. The rule only kicks in when it affects the special rule on the model, Psyker, not the model itself. It must target the special rule, not target the model itself to give the dreadnought a leadership value.

This is well said.

It comes down to the poorly written "For Psychic Purposes"

the FaQ does little to help, but it still stands that if Mindworm states it affects Psykers then it does, and if it doesn't states it affects Psykers then it does not.

since Psyker is s a special rule.


If you go the other way, and say mindworm affects Psykers, then Shackle soul would have to affect Psykers as well. as well as many other LD requirement wargear, powers, and abilities.

Something like hammer of the witches out of the witch hunters codex would affect a Dread Librarian because the power states it does.

"Hammer of the witches is a psychic power used in the shooting phase... roll a D6 this number of enemy psykers must pass a LD test or suffer a perils of the warp attack..."

And mindworm affects psykers, or are you saying psykers are immune to the effects of mindworm DR?

Mindworm does not affect things with the Special Rule Psyker. It affects models. there is a difference.

Lone Dragoon wrote:
...nothing affects psykers unless the weapon/rule/psychic power/book/whatever says it does. The reason is Psykers are a rule, not a model..

If the power does not specifically say that it affects models with the special rule psyker and require a leadership test, then the Furioso doesn't have a leadership value.
Psyker is not a model type nor a unit type. It is a special rule that models can have. The FAQ for the furioso states specifically that if the conditions "affects psykers and requires a leadership test" are met, then the Furioso has a LD value.
Mind worm CAN affect psykers, but the power doesn't specify that it affects models with the psyker special rule, therefore it doesn't satisfy the conditions of the FAQ ruling.

It seems you guys will not be convinced that is the case, so we can definitely agree to disagree.

So mindworm is a psykic power, which effects psykers... but it doesn't effect some psykers because?.....

ChrisCP wrote:So mindworm is a psykic power, which effects psykers... but it doesn't effect some psykers because?.....

It is not affecting the psyker(s) rule, it is affecting models with leadership. Psyker (for the Librarian dread) is a special rule that provides a leadership value, if something affects the special rule Psyker(s) then the dreadnought has a leadership.

Does mind worm target any model in range and LOS? Yes
Does mind worm specifically say that it affects the psyker rule? No
Does this mean that mind worm does not work on a Farseer? No, the farseer is a model with a leadership value. It is not affected because it is a psyker, it is affected because there is a listed leadership characteristic in the farseer's profile whether or not it has the special rule psyker. Any unit that has a leadership value can be affected.

So Mind worm can target a furioso dreadnought, but what makes a librarian furioso different than a regular one? The psyker special rule. As it is a special rule and not a type of model, nor does the special rule give the libby dread a leadership at all times. Only at certain times.
Shouldn't mind worm work on the libby dread then and force him to take a leadership? Is there a leadership characteristic in the dreadnought's profile? No there is no LD value. There is the rule psyker. Does mind worm specify that the unit it is being used on affects the psyker special rule? No, it affects a unit with a leadership value. The fact that you can target some models that have the psyker rule with the attack does not mean you can use it to attack the psyker rule. Those models are affected because of a leadership value, not the psyker rule.

Essentially it boils down to something must target the psyker rule, not necessarily the model, for the librarian dreadnought to have a leadership.

"Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership value, they are counted as being Leadership 10."

So you are saying Mindworm doesn't affect psykers?

Or
"Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership value, they are counted as being Leadership 10."
Or psykers they aren't affected by psychic powers?

He is saying:

"Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership value, they are counted as being Leadership 10."

Notice that is one big run on sentence, so it has to be a psychic power that affects the Special Rule: Psyker specifically as noted in the FaQ, and not just any psychic power that targets models that may or may not have the Special Rule: Psyker.

I'm saying that Mind Worm does not affect the psyker rule. The term psyker is used by most people to mean a model with the special rule psyker, but it only refers to the rule psyker not the model itself. One half of the argument (The half I'm not part of) is using the term psyker to mean a model with the special rule. Unless something affects the special rule the librarian dread does not have a leadership value.

It's like saying is mind worm affecting infiltrators? No, it is affecting the model not the rule. As I said, people bandy about the term psyker and use it to refer to the model, when it is actually referring to the special rule that allows the model to make psychic attacks. It's the same as a lot of people saying if I rapid fire a bolter can I... Bolters do not rapid fire, rapid fire is a type of weapon that allows you to shoot 2 shots if you are within 12" it is not a firing mode. You don't assault shoot a meltagun, you shoot. You don't target the psyker rule, you don't affect it.