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Yes. He should be at least 190 points, being both a CC beast and having excellent army-wide rules.

I only fought him once, while he was in a 5-man assault termi squad. Wounded my DP on assault (after the DP polished two termies off the board), then died when assaulted by Kharn without fighting back (Player had a crappy saving throw hand).

However, even after his death he was -still- awesome as the rest of the army went about melta-ing everything without ever missing a shot. In the current mech metagame, anything so amazingly anti-vehicle gets upgraded from great to amazing.

A simple modification making it so that you had to pay for the meltas and flamers would be a good solution in making him more "balanced". As a force multiplier his points just gets more underpriced as it goes, since his basic cost remains the same, but you get WAY more twin-linked weapons (especially if you consider that Twin-linked weapons should cost more than Combat Tactics).

Son 0f Dorn wrote:Should that matter? They aren't fighting on their fortress world are they? They'd need them for where they deploy to other planets.

thats true, and i suppose i could, because in the fluff it says that tend to keep few of them because it is hard to practice with them because of the gravity shifts due to Nocturnes moon.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Then how do you explain the points of a similarly equipped Chapter Master being more?

I just ran the numbers.

First off, you should be comparing him to a captain, not master, as he is more like a captain.

A captain with relic blade, storm shield, artificer armor, and digital weapons is 170 points.

So 170<195, however the captain won't have a heavy flamer, bolt pistol, and his relic blade won't be master crafted.

I would say without chapter tactics, he is worth his points. However, IMO he should be 200-210, as his chapter tactics is so powerful (even more than the other SC)

SlaveToDorkness wrote:We're not talking what sucks or doesn't. Just comparing point-for-point. Costwise he's a steal.

Relatively speaking, he's not a steal. At low point totals, he's not even worth taking. At high point totals he can be somewhat of a bargain as long as the ENTIRE army is built around him.

If vulkan didn't do everything he did for his cost, no one would take him.

And what something costs does matter on whether you consider something sucks or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:

Son 0f Dorn wrote:His only problem is he doesn't have EW. Hit him with Krak missiles, melta, lascannons, and powerfists. One failed save and he's gone.

You would have to be a complete fool to leave him out in the open on his own an if you did you'd deserve to lose him for doing that.
Most people will place him in a squad usually a TH+SS squad which will soak up anti-tank fire with ease.

Except if you don't commit him to close combat, he can't be a 'combat monster'.

Massed fire can and will deal with him. I've taken out a rapidly-approaching Logan Grimnar and Wolfguard with First rank, FIRE! Second rank, FIRE! and an autocannon.

Vulkan builds are one of the few competitive builds for C:SM when compared to SW, BA, and other, newer Space Marine codices. Just like 2x Lash 9x Oblits. Everyone knows it's silly, but just let it be. It's all they've got.

Vulkan is one of those dudes that's just a no-brainer for many armies. Not only does he have all the best new wargear for C:SM 5E, he's got it at something of a discount. A kitted captain with combi-flamer, relic blade, stormshield, artificer armor and digital weapons, for 180pts, it's not only an illegal loadout, but it also doesn't get the master crafted CC attacks for its relic blade, doesn't TL melta/flamer weapons or master craft thunderhammers, and has a far weaker flamer weapon. Vulkan is only 10pts more than this illegal loadout and clearly inferior captain, so in that respect alone he's undercosted.

Additionally, you don't even really need an army tailored around him, he makes what most SM armies already usually load up on very good. Most SM armies have those painfully undercosted TH/SS termi's, which Vulkan makes better. Most SM armies rely heavily on melta weapons and typically have at least a some flamer weapons. So if you wanted a fighty HQ, Vulkan is already a no-brainer due to having all the typical SM CC character weapons, and on top of it he makes what you'd already usually take even better. He's just does too much for an irrelevant price increase over a basic HQ guy. He doesn't require any talent to play, he just shows up, if fightier than fighty SM captains, and makes the rest of the army more effective, for basically 20pts more than what you'd probably normally spend on a Captain, acting as a giant crutch for the army, making the army much more effective for a trivial price increase and the loss of a special rule few care about or even use.

And that's why I literally went 12 months without playing against a single SM army that didn't have Vulkan in it once the current C:SM came out.

NO He IS NOT UNDERPRICED!!!!!! He is worth as much as a Tactical squad with a Lascannon and Melta gun and they would whoop him!

I can't really say if Vulkan is overpower by wargear alone, but he improves the already OP TH/SS termies and Melta is already king of the special weapons. He's like Grazghkull, but at least Graz is so expensive that it balances out.

Son 0f Dorn wrote:

warhawkstriker wrote: I like to keep my Salamander army fluffy by not taking skimmers, because they don't work properly on Nocturne.

Should that matter? They aren't fighting on their fortress world are they? They'd need them for where they deploy to other planets.

Way to go using lore and logic. I think its crap when an imperial fist player (for example) is like, 'and Im taking Vulkan'. That's crap i say. I play Yme-Loc eldar and you dont see me with Ulthran. Or my 5th company ultramarines, i don't use, well.. Vulkan.

I'm not sure he's underpriced in the context of the entire army. Cetainly on his own, or compard to SM captains, he seems undercosted, but a lot of what he makes better (TH/SS termies excluded) are arguably overcosted to begin with.

Look, he's a bargain compared to the SM captain, who suck noodles. Captains are overcosted by a solid 30pts, so a direct comparison is misleading.

I think when you look at a vulkan army as a whole, even in 2500pts, it's a pretty balanced list.