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My roommate is in love with Vulkan and plays him everytime with like a hundred meltas and flamers (so its more like 18 to 20 meltas, but same difference) and drop pods everyone. No matter what I do I can't do more than tie him. It's just too hard to overcome all those goodies. On top of re-rolling all his misses vulkan is also a beast in close combat...I watched him kill 4 termies in one assault!!! One re-roll on to hit and to wound and hits and wounds on a 3+ as well as having a 2+/3+ save!!! I think he's out of control for 190 points and most certainly quite a bit of cheese. Especially when compared to someone like Shrike whose more expensive.

What do y'all think? I think he should cost at least as much as Sicarius if not more.

he is very underpriced for what he brings to the table, but hey, im one of those people that thinks the sm characters should "unlock" abilities then you have to PAY for them in points. but im just mad

It just seems like a lot of awesomeness for such a low price. I mean coupled with his price you could argue he's as good as Abaddon or the Sanguinor.

Hes priced fairly imo.

true he unlocks good abilities but your friend is simply capitalizing on it to the full extent.
its one thing to get a few bonuses and another to focus an entire army on it.


just like Khan you can outflank a few things or gear your entire army to outflank.


just find some flexibility in your list. stretch his pods thin.


oh yeah i forgot to add. master crafted allows 1 re roll to hit nothing else.
and he needs 2+ to wound terminators because a relic blade is strength 6. unless you have plague terminators =O


oh yeah put a power fist into him he will die instantly haha.

Have you tried giving him first turn and holding your models in reserve to limit what he can shoot at? What about using terrain to your advantage? Wraping your important vehciles with troops? All he does it make two guns twin linked, that's not a big deal really if you know what your doing.

Considering melta and TH/SS are the spam du jour, he is a bit undercosted. His abilities as an individual combat unit are pretty fine for the cost.

still think all SM characters should just unlock abilities and then they have to be paid for in points... stubborn 10pts per unit, for vulken 15 per unit, no more free army wide upgrades !!

Well, look at calgar. 215 points (with terminator armour) for one of the best cc models in the game. Calgar is only 35 more points and has all his amazing rules, including eternal warrior! He can also do some minor shooting as well, AND deepstrike! I play vulkan in every game as well, He is not underpriced for what he can bring to the table. Just remember, it could be worse, it could be mephistan!!!!!

In theory you are still paying for it, your units no longer have Combat Tactics. However, Combat Tactics, for what it's worth, isnt all that useful. Twinlinked Meltas should cost WAAAY more than combat tactics. All of the Chapter Tactics characters take away a moderate special rule and replace it with (usually) an above average or awesome Rule.

In close combat terms Vulkan is nothing special. I mean... for ten more points you could have a full squad of ss/th termies.

It's true he does bring some great army wide special rules but plenty of characters do that your friend is just tooling his list around Vulkan. I've played against some pretty nasty Shrike w/ Vanguard and Lysander w/ Sternguard lists too. Their just capitalizing strengths.

In terms of combat prowess I would argue Kharn is a superior model and for 20 less points.

feth yeah he's undercosted.
Take everything you normally see in a Marine list and make it better. Then make him cheaper than a Chapter Master with comparable gear. Yeah, sounds undercosted to me.

He's not there for "combat prowess" but with his 3++ would last a helluva lot longer than Kharn.

I think some of the C:SM special characters are under costed.

Vulkan is not one of them. I think he is about right.

Now if he had eternal warrior...

Then how do you explain the points of a similarly equipped Chapter Master being more?

Because said chapter master isn't leading a cool chapter like the salamanders
nah actually it's not the smartest thing.. but hey it's GW what are you gonna do.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Then how do you explain the points of a similarly equipped Chapter Master being more?

Because a chapter master sucks?

No wait!
He's more expensive because of this. two words
ORBITAL BONBAONBARDLEMENTS

imweasel wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Then how do you explain the points of a similarly equipped Chapter Master being more?

Because a chapter master sucks?

We're not talking what sucks or doesn't. Just comparing point-for-point. Costwise he's a steal.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:In theory you are still paying for it, your units no longer have Combat Tactics. However, Combat Tactics, for what it's worth, isnt all that useful. Twinlinked Meltas should cost WAAAY more than combat tactics. All of the Chapter Tactics characters take away a moderate special rule and replace it with (usually) an above average or awesome Rule.

Combat Tactics are very useful if you're plannig on using Flamers, Meltas, and Thunder Hammers. You have to get close or lose any benefit you might have otherwise had. Ultramarines can fight at that range thanks to Combat Tactics, and the Emperor's Various Fists can due to Stubborn.

I see Vulkan He'stan as a challenge to deployment: You either want to stand off 18"+, or close and assault. And let's just say the Salamanders ain't the Space Wolves.

All I know is if a vulkan army drops on you before you can respond you're in for a world of hurt. Now if you go second then things are different, but no matter what he's gonna shoot at you first. With sternguard and dreads dropping in front of your power stuff you are gonna lose half your goodies at least. My land raider gets popped first turn every time. Then if they hold vulkan in reserve and bring him in on a weakened enemy it's game over. Vulkan can walk through anything that doesn't have an armor value. It's a perfect combo at an amazing price. Shrike at 195 isn't gonna give you the same advantage or Sicarius at 200.

Also Calgar is 250 or 265 if you take his special armor.

Vulkan is one of the most rediculous characters in the game, especially for what he costs. I watched him wade through plague marines and kill Typhus without suffering so much as a scratch. His durability is pure madness.

As far as the army wide upgrade, that is crap. It makes sense that an army led by the Khan would have outflank because it is a tactic, but for everyone to have crazy weapon upgradse? that is a bit different.

This might seem a bit radical, but I think if you want to use vulcan you better be playing the Salamanders or a successor chapter from them! Same with the Khan and the Scars, Calgar, Shrike, ect. You're already god like, space marines. Ya don't need to go changing lore to be even better.

His only problem is he doesn't have EW. Hit him with Krak missiles, melta, lascannons, and powerfists. One failed save and he's gone.

Ya if he had eternal warrior he would be better than even a Mephiston. The only way I have been able to kill him is with a weapon that causes instant death. His 3 wounds are just too hard to knock off especially if someone is rolling really good that day. And even if you wound with an instant kill weapon its still a 3+ invul save!!!

Son 0f Dorn wrote:His only problem is he doesn't have EW. Hit him with Krak missiles, melta, lascannons, and powerfists. One failed save and he's gone.

You would have to be a complete fool to leave him out in the open on his own an if you did you'd deserve to lose him for doing that.
Most people will place him in a squad usually a TH+SS squad which will soak up anti-tank fire with ease.

Ya though if you obliterate that squad with fire and then he's left out it's not really the controlling players fault. Sheer volume of fire to get to him.

Wound distribution still leaves him vulnerable even if buried in a squad. And if you're in cc, you just allocate all your PF/TH attacks onto him.
Gotta say though. He is a really good leader for the price. I think this evolved more out of the growth of mech in 5th ed. than any intent on designers part.

pbkeeney17 wrote:Ya though if you obliterate that squad with fire and then he's left out it's not really the controlling players fault. Sheer volume of fire to get to him.

Sheer volume of fire is all you need. That's how you beat termies and that's how you'll get him.
If you are shooting 6 or so anti-tank weapon at Vulkan and his squad of 5 TH+SS termies (Peruming that is what he has with him) then not only is that a lot of anti-tank but you aren't gonna take them all out in 1 turn which means you need to spend another turn shooting. Meanwhile the res of the SM army rides up to you in rhinos and sets you the hell on fire with their super flamers and meltas.
If you can kill Vulkan that's nice but you should to it using the same tactics that you would kill TH+SS termies and not with anti-tank weapons. The anti-tank should be shooting at tanks.

But you see, that's the thing. You don't need to shoot termies with anti-tank, you shoot them with anti infantry (aka plasma gun/pistol/cannon). Volume of fire works great too, any kind of standard firearm works too. I tend not to mathhammer as it very RARELY ever works out that way for me. And since most armies are meched out these you only need 3 or 4 melts to deal with their transports.

I used to play Salamanders religiously and I know Vulcan and his termies are not the mega deathstar they seemed to be made out to be here.

Hoodwink10 wrote:Vulkan is one of the most rediculous characters in the game, especially for what he costs. I watched him wade through plague marines and kill Typhus without suffering so much as a scratch. His durability is pure madness.

As far as the army wide upgrade, that is crap. It makes sense that an army led by the Khan would have outflank because it is a tactic, but for everyone to have crazy weapon upgradse? that is a bit different.

This might seem a bit radical, but I think if you want to use vulcan you better be playing the Salamanders or a successor chapter from them! Same with the Khan and the Scars, Calgar, Shrike, ect. You're already god like, space marines. Ya don't need to go changing lore to be even better.

I understand where you are coming from, but the chapter tactics for Vulkan can be looked at in 2 different ways. Either the twin linked and mastercraft comes not from the fact that Vulkan is leading them, but because they are all Salamanders then, meaning that they are all minor artificers so they know how to make their weapons better. Or the twin link doesn't represent their weapons, but the fact that those special weapons are the ones that they primarily train with. I like to keep my Salamander army fluffy by not taking skimmers, because they don't work properly on Nocturne.

warhawkstriker wrote: I like to keep my Salamander army fluffy by not taking skimmers, because they don't work properly on Nocturne.

Should that matter? They aren't fighting on their fortress world are they? They'd need them for where they deploy to other planets.

Nurglitch wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:In theory you are still paying for it, your units no longer have Combat Tactics. However, Combat Tactics, for what it's worth, isnt all that useful. Twinlinked Meltas should cost WAAAY more than combat tactics. All of the Chapter Tactics characters take away a moderate special rule and replace it with (usually) an above average or awesome Rule.

Combat Tactics are very useful if you're plannig on using Flamers, Meltas, and Thunder Hammers. You have to get close or lose any benefit you might have otherwise had. Ultramarines can fight at that range thanks to Combat Tactics, and the Emperor's Various Fists can due to Stubborn.

I see Vulkan He'stan as a challenge to deployment: You either want to stand off 18"+, or close and assault. And let's just say the Salamanders ain't the Space Wolves.

Twin Linked Flamers, Melta Guns, Mastercrafted Thunder Hammers and the like kinda ensures you dont really need to run out of combat. Flamers especially, since they're assault weapons. You kinda wanna charge in. Best case scenario you blow the enemy squad and negate having to deal with a charging squad. Worst case: you avoid being shot at next turn by virtue of still being in combat. There's no way they'd last for three turns, given that they would have suffered casualties from the twin linked shooting (especially the flamer) and then the resulting charge would have wiped the floor with anyone left.

To me Combat Tactics is more or less Hit and Run. In codexes which had veteran skills you could take, Hit and Run-type skills come at about 2 points or so per model. Most dexes that allowed you to take twin-linked weapons tend to have the twin-linking at either 5 points, or making the weapon cost twice as much (basically making you buy a second version of the weapon). The humble flamer is, on average, 5 points, and let's not get started on how much Thunderhammers and Multi-meltas cost.