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The problem is that people keep comparing GKT to TH/SS terminators.

They're not. They're really not. GKT and GKP are built to fight entire armies, TH/SS terminators are built to fight big ass scary melon-fethers. Two completely different mindsets there.

good thing we are talking about close combat, isnt it?

I really doubt he was talking about close combat only when he brought up Vendettas and lascannons.

Nemesis Warding Staves are in CC only. And cost points.

...and you only get one per unit.

Therion wrote:

Nemesis Warding Staves are in CC only. And cost points.

...and you only get one per unit.

Where does it say that? I mean, I'm just looking at the scandex right now, so nothing official, but it says that any model may exchange their sword for a stave. Sure, it's costly, but it's perfectly fine purchase. I'd probably run 1-1.5 staves for every 5 men.

Grundz wrote:some situations may be:
5 pallies with falchions, hammerhand
25 swings, ~16.5 hits, ~15 wounds, 7 dead terminators, return blows kill 2.5 pallies
5 pallies with falchions, hammerhand, xenos inquisitor
25 swings, ~16.5 hits ~16.5 wounds (2+w/ reroll), 8 dead terminators, return blows kill an average of 1 paladin if the inquisitor didnt get him
Haeriticium inquisitor is slightly less wounds but there's about a 1/2 chance of losing zero pallies

Yep. LC Terminators trump TH/SS Terminators. We've known that for... ever, basically. And yet almost nobody takes them, because they get shot to death, have little value versus vehicles, and quite frankly Preferred Enemy Black Templar Furious Charging LC Terms do it better, and from a lance-immune Land Raider.

Seriously, the things that are being made a big deal of, FNP and customizability, are not new. Nob Bikers are actually as resistent to S3-6 shooting as Paladins, and moreso versus AP2 or ID. TWolf Cav can run with Wolf Lords and SS carriers to bounce stray AP1/2.

Paladins are expensive and horrendously slow, and the only thing that compensates for their speed (a 200+ point transport) compounds their first issue.

Where does it say that?

A lot of things changed for the worse in the actual codex you know?

sourclams wrote:
Paladins are expensive and horrendously slow, and the only thing that compensates for their speed (a 200+ point transport) compounds their first issue.

As long as your comfortable to keep shifting your arguement, okay.

librarian gate, deep striking, a GM giving scout, or a stormraven can also make them rather quick.

Scout is the only thing that actually breaks my argument, and that still has a lot of problems. They lack fleet so they're guaranteed to get shot again, and that's an issue with the 5+ while being conveniently in meltagun range in addition to whatever high S low AP stuff the other guy brought.

Libby has the same problem the Paladins do, i.e. he has to get there before he can yoyo people about.

Stormraven is an aforementioned 200+ point transport.

DS leaves them off the table for at least 1 turn, and quite frankly if DSing Terminators was good, we'd see it with TH/SS and Deathwing Terminators before now. Mordrack is a slight boost with the 1st turn deep strike, but you still have very real problems getting shot to death. on the turn you arrive, far from the rest of your support list.

When DKs were S7/T7 4++ bullet soakers, a GK alpha strike list seemed to have merit, and it still might, but it's simply a large rock and players will find a way around it.

I think my overall argument -- that Paladins are an expensive unit that bring nothing actually new to the game that Nob Bikers, Twolf Cav and BA terminators haven't already shown people for a year -- has been quite consistent. In spite of the efforts of a few to 'kit out' a Paladin squad to deal with everything, they still cost a crap load of points, are slow, and die to all the same shooting that has dealt with Nobz and TWC.

ph34r wrote:The apothecary costs 55+75=130 points

That is absurd. The apothecary doesn't even help you against the weapons your enemy is going to shoot at your paladins: things that instant death them.

This is basically my point. FnP on a measly Plague Marine squad doesnt draw much Heavy weapons fire, because they're cheap enough that you can bring in a good mass of them, rendering shooting them with heavy weapons unfeasable (it's just easier to pump more bolter shells or lasgun fire into them and hope they fail their saves). GKPs however, are 2 wound terminators. First thing that comes to mind is Instant Death. Second thing is AP2. Throw on FnP and you got three reasons why you should divert firepower away from tanks and into this unit. Normal terminators, at best, will attract AP2 weaponry, never S8 (unless it has AP1 or 2 as well). They also bring more attacks to the party and, if the calculations others have made are correct, just the same amount of wounds.

Paladins seem good if you run them without Apothecaries, as it's extra points that seems to be wasted. Statistically you have to force 12 armor saves or 4 Invulnerable saves to kill a single Paladin. If you run them barebones, they're only 15 points more than normal termies and have twice the amount of survivability against small arms fire.

Deathstar units are potential here, but remember: you're paying out the ass for them. A IG heavy weapons squad can field 3 lascannons for the cost of just less than 2 Paladins. They can also field a Basilisk for the cost of just over 2 (which has the potential to ID at least 4 Paladins a turn). This is personally why I started this thread, since after the initial fanboyism wore off, I realised how big of a liability the Apothecary was, and was wondering if anyone could find a use for them for their exorborant cost.

Once again, I see Apothecaries only really making back their value in a Draigo army.

Grundz wrote:good thing we are talking about close combat, isnt it?

Good, but not good enough, because your Falchion terminators have 5++ invulnerable saves in close combat too. Why would you think they would get 4++ using not-swords?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Paladins' main problem is this:

"okay, how does this help me against a mech army"

Just ask yourself that every time you look at your 400 point 5 man close combat squad. You will soon realize that for 400 points you have purchased a squad that costs as much as 2 enemy mech squads, and will never get into combat with them

ph34r wrote:

Grundz wrote:good thing we are talking about close combat, isnt it?

Good, but not good enough, because your Falchion terminators have 5++ invulnerable saves in close combat too. Why would you think they would get 4++ using not-swords?

Probably because I was responding to his example, whein they /did/ have basic wargear (swords)

Grundz wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Grundz wrote:good thing we are talking about close combat, isnt it?

Good, but not good enough, because your Falchion terminators have 5++ invulnerable saves in close combat too. Why would you think they would get 4++ using not-swords?

Probably because I was responding to his example, whein they /did/ have basic wargear (swords)

Try to make up your mind. Your Paladins have a different set of wargear in every example

ph34r wrote:Just ask yourself that every time you look at your 400 point 5 man close combat squad.

I think this is your biggest issue: Assuming that Paladins will be used strictly for assaulting things. While I don't know anything about what kind of wargear they'd get, I'd assume that they get the option to buy some fancy upgrades over their storm bolters. Having a moveable weapons platform which doesn't suck in close combat isn't too bad. The apothecary also makes the Paladins able to wade through Kan wall lists, and last I looked most IG lists rely on autocannons for transport popping, with melta for the heavy stuff. You've got to be pretty close to get melta shots off.

yeah, if the Palidins are in melta and plasma gun range, whatever is shooting them is going to be in combat with them pretty quick.

Sorry, nooby question (I haven't read anything on GK besides what GWS has shown on the website) Why does everyone say they will never get into combat? Do they have slow and purposful? And can't that be easily countered by stciking them in a LR or a stormraven?

They are saying that if they footslog(which no one that plays competitively will do) they won't.

No one is saying (really) that they wont get into cc. Their problem is lack of fast movement (just normal infantry) when they want to get into cc as fast as possible.

The main point seems to be that they are so incredibly good at their job that the opponent will be pointing every weapon they can at them in order to kill them first...

and what else is new?


any really good CC unit is going to be drawing excessive fire. these guys just happen to be really good at ignoring the most effective Termi killer of massed bolter/lasgun/shurikan fire. they are more vulnerable to lascannons then regular terminators simply because of their high cost, but it's the tradeoff.

Sourclams is generally quite good as these paladins seem to suck Grundz is indicating that they use librarians or stormraven thats an additonial 200pts for an easy transport kill 12 12 12 stormravens are lame plus there not all the way out.

Do try and use some basic punctuation.

The Enter key at least to seperate your sentences.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ph34r wrote:Just ask yourself that every time you look at your 400 point 5 man close combat squad.

I think this is your biggest issue: Assuming that Paladins will be used strictly for assaulting things. While I don't know anything about what kind of wargear they'd get, I'd assume that they get the option to buy some fancy upgrades over their storm bolters. Having a moveable weapons platform which doesn't suck in close combat isn't too bad. The apothecary also makes the Paladins able to wade through Kan wall lists, and last I looked most IG lists rely on autocannons for transport popping, with melta for the heavy stuff. You've got to be pretty close to get melta shots off.

Well, If you want to use 315 points of paladins to tote around storm bolters and 2 psycannons, that's your choice. I think the more sane choice is 10 grey knights wielding 4 psycannons for 280 points (purifiers).

Indeed the only way to justify buying Paladins would be to throw them into combat, and even then it's doubtful if they can make back their point costs.

They, however, will draw even more fire than usual, given their 2 wound status and 2+ armor save.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Indeed the only way to justify buying Paladins would be to throw them into combat, and even then it's doubtful if they can make back their point costs.

They, however, will draw even more fire than usual, given their 2 wound status and 2+ armor save.

No, the only way to justify Paladins would be to use both their ranged and close combat prowess effectively.

Grey Knights have always had trouble with maneuverability, this really shouldn't come as a shock.

I never said you couldnt shoot with them. But trying to keep them away from combat is just wasting points.

imweasel wrote:

Bruteboss wrote:I just need to address how ridiculous this example is. You're talking about wounds here, not even shots. Thats 20+ BS 3 lascannon shots at a single unit in cover!

1) What the hell was the idiot GK player in this scenario doing putting paladins in line of sight of 20+ heavy weapons?

and

2) What kind of army can afford to fire 20 or more heavy weapons at a single unit of infantry?

For the vast majority of armies, those 20+ heavy weapons represent their entire firepower, IG included. Name a codex and I can guarantee that competitive lists for it will be around the 15-30 heavy weapon mark. And thats the entire army we're talking about remember.

In reality, the paladins are going to be deploying out of a stormraven or landraider. I'd pick the stormraven because after coming in fast from reserve, they'll probably be able to hit the enemy lines in cc by turn 3-4. Compare the survivability of paladins versus terminators in that scenario and I think you'll see clearly that paladins win. Hence why they are an expensive elite choice for the army and not just troops.

The example is not ridiculous. He didn't say 'put 10 lascannon wounds on them in one turn'. He merely stated that it takes 10 lascannon wounds to kill a paladin squad in cover. You don't think that over 2-3 turns of shooting some lascannons at them you can't genereate 10 wounds?

Vs most of the ranged weapons fire that will be directed at paladins, they are not going to be anymore survivable than regular terminators.

That is the problem with all of his counter examples... Pure rock-paper-scissors... Sounds great in discussions but never equates to the reality of real life play on a table involving good players.

I like the thought of putting 4 Psycannons in a 10 man paladin squad. Stupidly expensive squad but that does let you kill Assault termies with your rending rolls as it would ignore armour and invun saves and also damage land raiders.

I think giving the apoth to a paladin squad is ok. It protects you against other problems like Eldar or Tyranids bringing all those small arm weapons against them.

Psy weapons don't ignore Invulns anymore.

they just add +1Str to the gun.

Grey Templar wrote:Psy weapons don't ignore Invulns anymore.

they just add +1Str to the gun.

Damn. Thought I had something to put down that stupid seer council tactic :(

You do. I6 power weapons and a psychic hood that says 'no Fortune for you'.

obsidianaura wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Psy weapons don't ignore Invulns anymore.

they just add +1Str to the gun.

Damn. Thought I had something to put down that stupid seer council tactic :(

Vindicare. 1st shot the Farseer looses his only save. Then just land a S6+ attack on him. Dead Seer Council.