Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

No problem, deployment is by far the fuzziest section of the rule book (they could really do with some proof readers that haven't been playing the game for years).

It's worth remembering that transports are very flexible now, compared to previous editions. For example, you can get a squad of terminators with a dedicated land raider. You have the terminators in reserve (to deep strike) whilst deploying the landraider. It can't have another squad in it for deployment as it's a dedicated transport but they can start next to it and embark on T1.

Also, the only "discounted" DTs are assault squads that give up their jump packs - their free transports work out slightly cheaper.

Eyesedragon wrote:Not really I already knew that taking a wave sepant with unit would save me pts its just the rules get implied not defined so..... Thank you for taking the time to break it down

You keep talking about saving points.

You do realize that Falcons and Wave Serpents might look the same, but they certainly aren't, right?

oh damn it doest save me pts lol sorry bout that

Going back to the OP, I think you can bring the unit on, even if you say it started embarked in the vehicle, you would simply have to roll for them separately. In the WWP rules description it states, "From then on, any of your units arriving from reserve may move on from the portal's edge instead of entering as normal (it does not matter whether these units were intending to deep strike, outflank, simply move on from their own table edge, and so on)

Now the last line states that vehicles cannot enter play through a WWP (shame they changed that ), however, it does state that it doesn't matter how they were originally going to deploy, so IMHO I feel that you could decide to deploy them in the Raider at the beginning of hte game, and then if you get a really good WWP placement, you can change that and you would have to roll separately for both the unit and their transport.

And now someone can list the rule for me that says otherwise, because I am under the assumption that specific rules in the codex override the general rules in the BRB.

Galador wrote:Now the last line states that vehicles cannot enter play through a WWP (shame they changed that ), however, it does state that it doesn't matter how they were originally going to deploy, so IMHO I feel that you could decide to deploy them in the Raider at the beginning of hte game, and then if you get a really good WWP placement, you can change that and you would have to roll separately for both the unit and their transport.

At what point would you start rolling separately? At the point where you've decided to change how they're placed in reserve?

The WWP rules give you no permission to do so. The squad is embarked on the transport and is being rolled for together. Vehicles are forbidden to enter the portal. No further rules are required.

Galador wrote:"From then on, any of your units arriving from reserve may move on from the portal's edge instead of entering as normal (it does not matter whether these units were intending to deep strike, outflank, simply move on from their own table edge, and so on)

This is telling you that you may use the portal from reserve regardless of the method chosen to enter play. It does not give you permission to change how units have been placed in reserve, nor does it tell you how to handle this.

Scott-S6 wrote:This is telling you that you may use the portal from reserve regardless of the method chosen to enter play. It does not give you permission to change how units have been placed in reserve, nor does it tell you how to handle this.

Well, you CHOSE to enter play on the transport, now you are changing how you want to enter play. Seems like a choice to me. As I said, this is my perception on it. Doesn't mean I see it like you do, but its the way I read it.

Galador; when you prepare your reserves(in the BRB page 90, it's own section under reserves) this is when you decide whether you are placing your unit inside the transport, or if it will be walking on. This is also where you decide if the unit will be deploying via outflank or Deepstrike should those options be available.

Now as a non-vehicle unit, when the WWP gets dropped, units not in transports may enter through the WWP even if the declaration had already been made that they would be deployed via Deepstrike or outflank.

Models in vehicles are not given explicit information to disembark while in reserves and enter via the Portal, and vehicles are Explicitly denied entrance via the portal.

The portal choice is very specific on what options can be reset to the portal; arriving in your transport is not one of them.

Galador wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:This is telling you that you may use the portal from reserve regardless of the method chosen to enter play. It does not give you permission to change how units have been placed in reserve, nor does it tell you how to handle this.

Well, you CHOSE to enter play on the transport, now you are changing how you want to enter play. Seems like a choice to me. As I said, this is my perception on it. Doesn't mean I see it like you do, but its the way I read it.

So answer the question: At what point would you start rolling separately? At the point where you've decided to change how they're placed in reserve?

"And so on" is not very specific. In fact, to me, that says that no matter how they are reserved they can be changed. To me, that says that they put "and so on" in there because they didn't have the room on the page to list everything.

However, I don't push this issue whenever I do use the WWP, which I have only used a handful of times. I usually won't start anything that has a Dedicated transport in reserves when I am using a WWP, and I ususally only have one or two Raiders in my WWP list, simply because in my WWP lists, everything is massively assaulty, and the WWP can be put down close enough that you can get into assault in the turn you come out of it.

Also, the words "instead of entering as normal" tell me that I can negate any rules of how I was originally deploying. Hence why I said I can decide not to come in on the Raider. But that is also why I said that you would have to roll for them seperately, as they are now two different units, one coming on from the table edge or Deep Striking if you have the right upgrades(Raider), and one coming through the portal(unit that was inside the transport).

Edited for spelling errors.

Galador wrote:Also, the words "instead of entering as normal" tell me that I can negate any rules of how I was originally deploying. Hence why I said I can decide not to come in on the Raider. But that is also why I said that you would have to roll for them seperately, as they are now two different units, one coming on from the table edge or Deep Striking if you have the right upgrades(Raider), and one coming through the portal(unit that was inside the transport).

You're allowed to come in through the portal instead of as normal but there is no permission to ditch the transport. And again, at what point would you start rolling separately?

At the point that you changed their deployment option, aka the coming in "instead of as normal". Once you decide they aren't coming in on the transport, they are two separate units.

GW left it very ambiguous with the "and so on" at the end, so honestly, this argument could go on forever and never be resolved.

Galador wrote: "And so on" is not very specific. In fact, to me, that says that no matter how they are reserved they can be changed.

The "and so on" only refers to the method of arrival. Re-read the 2nd paragraph under "Preparing Reserves" on page 94 BGB and you find that you must explain clearly how your reserves are orgnized.
The organization of your reserves is in 3 parts:
1 - which units are in reserve
2 - how they are held in reserve (joined with an IC, embarked, etc)
3 - how will they arrive from reserve (move from table edge, deep strike, outflank, etc)

Now the WWP entry says that when your units arrive they may enter form the portal instead of entering as normal.
This only overrides the last step, #3. Before this happens, you must have already selected a unit that had been held in reserve (#1) and other units that may have been joined to it, like ICs or being in a transport, whether dedicated or not (#2) and rolled for them to arrive.

Galador wrote:Also, the words "instead of entering as normal" tell me that I can negate any rules of how I was originally deploying. Hence why I said I can decide not to come in on the Raider. But that is also why I said that you would have to roll for them seperately, as they are now two different units, one coming on from the table edge or Deep Striking if you have the right upgrades(Raider), and one coming through the portal(unit that was inside the transport).

The only rule that is 'negated' is how the unit will arrive from reserve. There is nothing in the rules for webway portals that gives permission to change the organization of your reserves. That is done when the units are placed in reserve well before before any reserves are rolled for. The key here is the quote you cited. "...instead of entering as normal..." that method of entering is the only thin the WWB may change.

time wizard wrote:

Galador wrote: "And so on" is not very specific. In fact, to me, that says that no matter how they are reserved they can be changed.

The "and so on" only refers to the method of arrival. Re-read the 2nd paragraph under "Preparing Reserves" on page 94 BGB and you find that you must explain clearly how your reserves are orgnized.
The organization of your reserves is in 3 parts:
1 - which units are in reserve
2 - how they are held in reserve (joined with an IC, embarked, etc)
3 - how will they arrive from reserve (move from table edge, deep strike, outflank, etc)

Now the WWP entry says that when your units arrive they may enter form the portal instead of entering as normal.
This only overrides the last step, #3. Before this happens, you must have already selected a unit that had been held in reserve (#1) and other units that may have been joined to it, like ICs or being in a transport, whether dedicated or not (#2) and rolled for them to arrive.

Galador wrote:Also, the words "instead of entering as normal" tell me that I can negate any rules of how I was originally deploying. Hence why I said I can decide not to come in on the Raider. But that is also why I said that you would have to roll for them seperately, as they are now two different units, one coming on from the table edge or Deep Striking if you have the right upgrades(Raider), and one coming through the portal(unit that was inside the transport).

The only rule that is 'negated' is how the unit will arrive from reserve. There is nothing in the rules for webway portals that gives permission to change the organization of your reserves. That is done when the units are placed in reserve well before before any reserves are rolled for. The key here is the quote you cited. "...instead of entering as normal..." that method of entering is the only thin the WWB may change.

Actually there is something. If you reread the same section you told me to reread, but the next paragraph, you will see that in the same section, it states that you must also declare to your opponent that a certain unit is deepstriking, outflanking, or has the scout rule. and the last line of the same section states that this decision may not be changed later. But the WWP overrules that by changing the decision. Hence, why I say you can change ALL the deployment rules, because in the WWP rules description, it has the line :From then on, any of your units arriving from reserve may move on from the portal's edge instead of entering as normal (it does not matter whether these units were intending to deep strike, outflank, simply move on from their own table edge, and so on)". It covers the deep strike and outflank specifically, but then adds the "and so on", negating the line from the BRB that states you can't change this later.

Once, again, but more in depth, this is why I say that you can do it. Honestly, the "and so on" part of the rule makes it very unclear and it needs to be FAQed. But until then, everyone will have their own views on it.

Galador wrote:

time wizard wrote:

Galador wrote: From then on, any of your units arriving from reserve may move on from the portal's edge instead of entering as normal (it does not matter whether these units were intending to deep strike, outflank, simply move on from their own table edge, and so on)". It covers the deep strike and outflank specifically, but then adds the "and so on", negating the line from the BRB that states you can't change this later.

The "and so on" cover things like Drop Pod Assault, Necrons teleporting in from reserve through a Monolith portal and others. It's put like that to avoid covering every codex specific special rules to arrive from reserves either past, present or future.
You can declare at the start of the game, "I'm joining this Archon to this unit of Wyches, putting them in reserve and they will enter from the table edge."
Then later if you have a WWP and after the Archon with the Wyche unit have rolled to arrive declare, "I'm bringing the Archon and Wyches in through the WWP instead of bringing them on from the table edge."
But once you have joined the Archon and the Wyches together and placed them in reserve, you can never declare, "I'm now separating the Archon from the Wyches and rolling for them separately to arrive."
You can't even split them the first turn they arrive, but that has no bearing on the organization of the reserves.
You would have to cite a specific rule that says "The player can now change the organization of reserves, splitting (or joining) units and rolling separately (or together) for them to arrive." See how confusing that would become?

time wizard wrote:The "and so on" cover things like Drop Pod Assault, Necrons teleporting in from reserve through a Monolith portal and others. It's put like that to avoid covering every codex specific special rules to arrive from reserves either past, present or future.
You can declare at the start of the game, "I'm joining this Archon to this unit of Wyches, putting them in reserve and they will enter from the table edge."
Then later if you have a WWP and after the Archon with the Wyche unit have rolled to arrive declare, "I'm bringing the Archon and Wyches in through the WWP instead of bringing them on from the table edge."
But once you have joined the Archon and the Wyches together and placed them in reserve, you can never declare, "I'm now separating the Archon from the Wyches and rolling for them separately to arrive."
You can't even split them the first turn they arrive, but that has no bearing on the organization of the reserves.
You would have to cite a specific rule that says "The player can now change the organization of reserves, splitting (or joining) units and rolling separately (or together) for them to arrive." See how confusing that would become?

Why, oh why (and this should be good ), would they put the "and so on" text in the DARK ELDAR codex under WWP rules to cover any other armies deployment rules??? There is absolutely no reason in the world that the "and so on" would talk about other armies deployment types UNLESS the WWP changed the OPPONENTS deployment, which it does not. So care to try and explain the "and so on" part of the rule again?

And I did site a specific rule, the WWP rule. It states that it doesn't matter what they were going to do before, they can now come on using the WWP. (hence the line about deep striking, outflanking, table edge, AND SO ON.)


Edited for spelling errors and to add the second part.

Galador wrote:Why, oh why (and this should be good ), would they put the "and so on" text in the DARK ELDAR codex under WWP rules to cover any other armies deployment rules??? There is absolutely no reason in the world that the "and so on" would talk about other armies deployment types UNLESS the WWP changed the OPPONENTS deployment, which it does not. So care to try and explain the "and so on" part of the rule again?

Nope, ya got me, can't explain the 'and so on'. But explain to me how you can use "...instead of entering as normal..." to change how your reserves are organized.
And I did site a specific rule, the WWP rule. It states that it doesn't matter what they were going to do before, they can now come on using the WWP.

time wizard wrote:Nope, ya got me, can't explain the 'and so on'. But explain to me how you can use "...instead of entering as normal..." to change how your reserves are organized.

Easily, because if you read the section on preparing reserves that you referred me to, it states that while preparing (organizing) your reserves, you have to declare to your opponent that something is going to Deep Strike, Outflank, Infiltrate, and so on. The WWP rules then say that it doesn't matter what you said they were doing, they are going to come on through the portal instead. But the first section of preparing (organizing) your reserves states that your decision cannot be changed later. But the WWP rules once again state that even though you declared it earlier, you can change it and have them come through the portal.

time wizard wrote:It doesn't state that it doesn't matter what they were doing before, it specifically talks about moving onto the board, nothing more, nothing less. Key part you keep missing, "From then on, any of your units arriving from reserve may move onto the board...".

It does state that it does not matter what they intended to do before, hence where I am getting my logic. You can't take just part of a rule, you have to read the whole thing. I understand where you are talking about moving on to the board, but in the wider context of the whole rule, the moving on to the board simply is stating that they can come on from the portal, instead of the normal way they were coming in.

time wizard wrote:When do units arrive? After they have been rolled for.
Can you roll for units that were joined together when placed in reserve separately? No, because right from the main rulebook;
You must specify if any independent character is joining a unit in reserve, in which case they will be rolled for and will arrive together.
You must also specify if any transport vehicle is carrying any infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve and they will again be rolled for and will arrive together.

This part is correct, but if I decide before I roll for my first reserve turn that I am going to have the unit in the transport come on through the WWP, it is again going back to the "It doesn't matter" and the "and so on" section of the WWP rule in parenthesis. This is also covered under preparing reserves, along with the Deep Strike and Outflank decisions, that I talked about above.

time wizard wrote:After this step, the units arrive from reserve moving on from the controlling player's table edge (or deep strike or outflank).
It is at this step that the WWP gives permission to change the manner of moving on, whether it be from your table edge, outflank, deep strike and come in from the edge of the WWP instead.
So, why, oh why, would they put "...any of your unit arriving from reserve may move onto the board from the portal marker's edge instead of entering as normal..." if they meant that you could split joined units apart and re-organize the way your units were placed in reserve in the first place. Why didn't they say that after you place the portal that , "From then on, you may roll for arrival of reserves in any manner you wish joining or separating units as desired."?

Because if I roll for the arrival of my units anyway that I wish, I will simply set my dice on the board with the "6" side of it up and say I passed my reserve roll? Sorry, had to joke a bit to lighten this all up, but you know someone would try that!!!

Also, just to add a bit more to contradict this, it states that "From Then On" after you drop the portal, any units arriving from reserve, so I go back to as I said when cutting this apart into multi-quotes, how can you ignore some of the decisions that you can't change from the BRB, but not all of them when you add in the "and so on"? When the last line of the section that you gave us earlier is "This decision may NOT be changed later", and this section includes all of the things that we have discussed (Deep Strike, Outflank, Table Edge, Transport, IC Joined to a unit), and then the WWP rule goes on to state that "it does not matter whether these units were intending to deep strike, outflank, or simply move on from their own table edge, and so on.

That last line is word for word what it says under WWP in the parenthesis. I understand where you are talking about I can't change it, and honestly as I said in a previous post, it is way too vague to ever come to a conclusion where everyone will agree until it is FAQed, but honestly, I interpret that GW meant it to cover the whole part of reserves, but they didn't have the page space cause they decided to put a picture on it and still had to add in the wychsuit rules, so they shortened it to "and so on", in the hopes that everyone would understand. But they should have known that perception is different for everyone, but you can't really blame them for not spelling out every rule in absolute detail, cause then that would take alot of the fun out of the game.

Galador wrote:At the point that you changed their deployment option, aka the coming in "instead of as normal". Once you decide they aren't coming in on the transport, they are two separate units. .

And when do you decide this? Before or after the webway portal is deployed?

If you decide it before then you may separate them but the webway portal never gets deployed. This is clearly in breach of the rules.

Or are you only allowed to decide after the portal is deployed?

The reason that none of this is covered in the WWP rules is quite simple - the portal refers only to the method of arriving, it does not refer to how they are held in reserve.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Galador wrote:At the point that you changed their deployment option, aka the coming in "instead of as normal". Once you decide they aren't coming in on the transport, they are two separate units. .

And when do you decide this? Before or after the webway portal is deployed?

If you decide it before then you may separate them but the webway portal never gets deployed. This is clearly in breach of the rules.

Or are you only allowed to decide after the portal is deployed?

The reason that none of this is covered in the WWP rules is quite simple - the portal refers only to the method of arriving, it does not refer to how they are held in reserve.

How does the WWP never get deployed???

and I never said that you wouldn't hold them in reserve as the single unit you first declared, I simply said that you would change how the unit embarked on the transport, as they are still a separate unit, (as I believe you mentioned in another thread about how they are separate units or else you would have to stay in coherency with the vehicle the whole game) would be deployed, which is exactly what the WWP does.

Basically, so that noone is getting confused by what I am suggesting, let me lay it out:

You decide that Duke Sliscus and 9 Warriors are starting in Reserve abord a Raider. Your Haemy with a WWP starts on the board inside a Raider. Turn one the HAemy Raider moves 12" forward, he disembarks and drops the portal. You go through the rest of yoru turn and your opponents. At the start of turn two, you decide that you don't want Duke and his Warriors to come on the board in the Raider from the table edge, you want to bring him and his Warriors in through the portal (which, according to the WWP rules, you can do, even though the BRB states that the deployment decision cannot be changed later.) You can do this two ways, whichever works best for your opponent and yourself. You can either A) Roll them as two seperate units, one Roll for Duke Sliscus and the Warriors and one Roll for the transport, or B) one roll for both, and the Transport comes on from the edge while Duke Sliscus and the Warriors come on from the portal.

Either way, you are fulfilling the rules as stated, all except for the one in preparing reserves about how the decision cannot be changed later, because that is overruled by the WWP rules. I simply said the rolling for the two units separately because it seems quite unfair to me to roll once for the unit and their transport, and then you all of a sudden have two units from reserve on the table from one die roll. So to be fair, that is why I suggest rolling separately for each if you are going to change how Duke Sliscus and the Warriors (as a separate unit from the Transport) are going to arrive on the table, a.k.a. through the WWP. Nothing that I just suggested breaks any rules or goes against what the WWP allows, as I am changing how the Duke and Warriors arrive, which the WWP rules state you can do.

Hope that clears up exactly what I am trying to say.

Galador wrote:I simply said that you would change how the unit embarked on the transport

The problem is, you have no permission to do this. You are told that a unit in reserve can enter through the portal from reserve regardless of whether it was going to be outflanking, deep striking, etc. You are also told that vehicles may not.

You are reading way too much into that "so on" if you believe it gives permission to re-arrange your units in reserve.

Example - you have a squad with IC on a transport. You assert that they can be separated in reserve so that the squad can use the portal. Can the IC be left on the raider? Can he be assigned to a different squad or a different transport? If the permission to re-arrange reserves was present in the WWP rules then it would really need to spell it out as there are far more consequences to that than you seem to realise.

Yeah, even after the explanation you aren't understanding what I am saying.

I am not rearranging HOW they are ARRANGED in reserve. I am rearranging how they ENTER FROM RESERVE, which I am given explicit permission to do.

The unit can be held in reserve any way you want, embarked on a transport, deep striking, outflanking, upside down in a glass of water, suspended in the air with telekinesis, eating a ham and cheese sandwich, WHATEVER. My point is, that once your roll for the reserve, the infantry portion of that unit can come on through the portal if you wish, because they are a separate unit from the transport.

I am changing how they ARRIVE. I was stating that you roll for them separately simply to be fair. I feel that it is not fair to roll one die for all 3 of the units suggested in the scenario above, but hey, if you don't get what I'm trying to say, then that's easy. you roll one die for the whole unit, and then the transport ARRIVES from the board edge, and the Duke and Warriors ARRIVE from the portal.

I am not reading to much into that "and so on", I am using logic to see that they didn't have enough room to write everything out on the page because they still had to list the wychsuit rules, and were almost at the bottom of the page, so had to shorten it, or else make a whole page for nothing but the wychsuit rules, which would have been stupid and cost-prohibitive.

There is no changing how they are ARRANGED in reserve. just how they ARRIVE.

Edited for spelling and grammar errors.

So guys, since I'm slow and get lost in all of these "arguments" (damn John Cleese and Michael Palin. They are all I can hear in these threads ) nevermind the arguments and syllogisms, just "MakeDaCall":

Bob decides to put two Wyche units, and their Raiders in Reserve. "Both wyche units are in Reserve, but *not*, Fran, I repeat Not in their transports."

Fran: "So, either the wyches are entering through the WebPortal you'll inevitably drop or *walk* on, UNembarked?"

Bob: "DISembarked, Fran. Yeah, if the WWP doesn't look good to me, the girls will walk on."

Fran: "Okay, so do both come in from Reserves on a separate die roll or the same?"

Bob: "Well, it's a little fuzzy, but the guys on dakka said, ... "

Roll for both the wyches and their transport come in on the same die roll, but the vehicle comes in fromt the edge and the girls either walk in on the edge or use the WWP, as per the WWP's special rule. Izzat about right?

Yes or No?

No, I understand exactly what you're saying. Look at the list of examples in the WWP rules "whether these units were intending to deep strike, outflank, simply move on from their own table edge, and so on"

All methods of entry. Nothing about unit attatchments, transports, etc. Nothing was stopping them from putting "embarked on a transport" on that list and it would have been a highly important one to mention.

Galador wrote:I am not reading to much into that "and so on", I am using logic to see that they didn't have enough room to write everything out on the page because they still had to list the wychsuit rules, and were almost at the bottom of the page, so had to shorten it, or else make a whole page for nothing but the wychsuit rules, which would have been stupid and cost-prohibitive.

So your argument is that there wasn't room to put "embarked on a transport" in the list so they put "and so on" in order to save 14 characters worth of space?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brothererekose wrote:Bob decides to put two Wyche units, and their Raiders in Reserve. "Both wyche units are in Reserve, but *not*, Fran, I repeat Not in their transports."

Roll for both the wyches and their transport come in on the same die roll, but the vehicle comes in fromt the edge and the girls either walk in on the edge or use the WWP, as per the WWP's special rule. Izzat about right?

Yes or No?

No, the squad and transport are separate units and are rolled for separately. Reserves are rolled per unit (check the definition on P3 if you're fuzzy on this - a squad and it's transport are separate units). If the squad is embarked on a transport then you are told to make only one roll for the two units - see P94, paragraph 6.

Scott-S6 wrote:So your argument is that there wasn't room to put "embarked on a transport" in the list so they put "and so on" in order to save 14 characters worth of space?

Actually, yes, that is one of my arguments. Go look at the page. If they had left out the picture of the little bug thing, and the info about the Kabal of the dying Sun, they would have had ample room to write out what they meant by "and so on." However, because they put those in there, there is no room left, because there is literally one line of space between the end of the WWP rules and the wychsuit rules, and hte wychsuit rules are at the end of the page, and stop right above the lower print border. Consider it weak, consider it whatever you wish, we have all seen GW do dumber things than that. And how is it only 14 characters??? The and so on covers more than one deployment type. It can also affect how Kheradruak is deployed if you wish, or any other way you can come up with that units in the Dark Eldar codex can be deployed, including embarked in a transport. As a matter of fact, if the only way that they cound change was the three that are listed, why would they even add the "and so on" part if there were no other ways that it could effect deployment???

Embarked on a transport coming on from your table edge is a method of entry, is it not??? If its not, I would love to know how that unit is going to get onto the table then. They cannot come onto the table if they are not embarked on the transport, right?? Hence, I am changing the way they are ENTERING from reserve, as I stated in the last post. You have yet to give me a feasible argument of why I can't, since arriving from reserve embarked on the transport was there NORMAL way of coming on the table, and I am changing that, as is specifically allowed as per the WWP rules, hence the "instead of entering as NORMAL" part.

Scot-S6 wrote:

Brothererekose wrote:Bob decides to put two Wyche units, and their Raiders in Reserve. "Both wyche units are in Reserve, but *not*, Fran, I repeat Not in their transports."
Roll for both the wyches and their transport come in on the same die roll, but the vehicle comes in fromt the edge and the girls either walk in on the edge or use the WWP, as per the WWP's special rule. Izzat about right?
Yes or No?

No, the squad and transport are separate units and are rolled for separately. Reserves are rolled per unit (check the definition on P3 if you're fuzzy on this - a squad and it's transport are separate units).

I know. Just so *you* know, I've 6 years 40k experience and make most rule calls accurately. (not being snarky here).

Scot-S6 wrote: If the squad is embarked on a transport then you are told to make only one roll for the two units - see P94, paragraph 6.

Correct, normally, but WWP kinda fuzzy's *that* with this whole thread ketara has brought up, but yeah, I think you're right. Separate rolls.

Otherwise, is "Bob" playing it as it should be done?

P3 gets referred to really often - there seem to be a lot of people still confused by the difference between an FoC choice and a Unit.

Yep, other than that, Bob is playing it right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Galador wrote:Actually, yes, that is one of my arguments. Go look at the page. If they had left out the picture of the little bug thing, and the info about the Kabal of the dying Sun, they would have had ample room to write out what they meant by "and so on." However, because they put those in there, there is no room left, because there is literally one line of space between the end of the WWP rules

So the little picture of the bug is more important than the rules?

Galador wrote:Embarked on a transport coming on from your table edge is a method of entry, is it not??

No, entering from your table edge is a method of entry, as is deep striking, outflanking, etc.

Unit attachments are not methods of entry.

Exactly my point, it is a method of entry, which I am changing for the unit of Warriors and Duke Sliscus, as per the WWP rules. they were originally ENTERING the table embarked on the transport, however, they are now ENTERING the table from the WWP, while the Transport(a separate unit) is entering still from the table edge.

Galador wrote:Exactly my point, it is a method of entry, which I am changing for the unit of Warriors and Duke Sliscus, as per the WWP rules. they were originally ENTERING the table embarked on the transport, however, they are now ENTERING the table from the WWP, while the Transport(a separate unit) is entering still from the table edge.

You still have a fundamental flaw in your argument. You keep saying that entering embarked in a transport is a method of entering. This is incorrect. Coming on from the table edge, deep striking, outflanking, teleporting are all examples of different methods of arriving from reserve.
As I pointed out in previous posts, arriving from reserve happens after rolling for reserves (which happens on the second and onward turn of the game) which occurs after the units are placed in reserve at the start of the game.
Refer to page 95 BRB under 'Arriving from reserve' and it says, "When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unless it's deep striking or outflanking)." Does it say unless deep striking, outflanking, riding in or embarked in a transport? Of course not.
There is nothing in any rule, codex, errata or FAQ that gives you specific permission to split up units that were held in reserve. Continuing to argue that "and so on" is blanket permission to change the organization of your reserve force is ridiculous. For that to happen, you would need a specific rule that says you can do so, and you haven't shown one, quoted one, or cited one.
I have cited a number of rules that support my argument. Please come up with something better than just repeating the words "and so on" or giving your opinion as to how the typesetter put together a page in a codex as definitive support of your position.

time wizard wrote:You still have a fundamental flaw in your argument. You keep saying that entering embarked in a transport is a method of entering. This is incorrect. Coming on from the table edge, deep striking, outflanking, teleporting are all examples of different methods of arriving from reserve.
As I pointed out in previous posts, arriving from reserve happens after rolling for reserves (which happens on the second and onward turn of the game) which occurs after the units are placed in reserve at the start of the game.
Refer to page 95 BRB under 'Arriving from reserve' and it says, "When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unless it's deep striking or outflanking)." Does it say unless deep striking, outflanking, riding in or embarked in a transport? Of course not.
There is nothing in any rule, codex, errata or FAQ that gives you specific permission to split up units that were held in reserve. Continuing to argue that "and so on" is blanket permission to change the organization of your reserve force is ridiculous. For that to happen, you would need a specific rule that says you can do so, and you haven't shown one, quoted one, or cited one.
I have cited a number of rules that support my argument. Please come up with something better than just repeating the words "and so on" or giving your opinion as to how the typesetter put together a page in a codex as definitive support of your position.

Ok, then in your opinion, from the way I am perceiving it, if coming onto the board embarked on a transport from reserve is not arriving from reserve, how are the models coming out of reserve??? Because if they are not arriving from reserve embarked on the transport, then they aren't arriving on the board, hence they cannot disembark, shoot, assault, essentially they don't exist, from what you are saying. Hence, why did you bother to put them in the transport then?? Cause I know that if my models didn't exist because I gave them a transport, I know I would never bring transports.

As I stated earlier, I only suggested rolling for them as a separate unit to be fair, because I think it is quite unfair for me to have something embarked on a transport, roll one dice, and then decide that Duke and the Warriors are coming through the WWP instead of the transport. But hey, you wanna get down to brass tacks, I can do that according to the WWP. I have stated a specific rule, the WWP rule, for how I can do it. You and Scott keep saying I am reading too much into the "and so on" part, but I say that you and Scott are totally ignoring it, because according to what you have both said, the only ways to deploy from reserve, according to the BRB, is Deep striking, Outflanking, or moving on from the table edge, which the rules for the WWP specifically cover. So why, if those are the only three ways to arrive, would you even bother writing "and so on" at the end? There would be no point for it, except if you were trying to state that you can change how ANY infantry unit Monstrous creature, or jetbike arrives from reserve.

Also, one last caveat. You state that coming onto the table embarking on a transport is not arriving from reserve, but if you read under preparing reserves (as you so pointed me to earlier), it states that they will arrive together. It states they will be rolled for together and arrive together. It never states that they arrive as "one unit", just that you roll for them together. Hence, they are arriving whatever way you determine, be it from the board edge, deep striking, outflanking, whatever way you choose. So, as that is the case, the only thing that says anything about them arriving is where it says the decision cannot be changed later, which is also in reference to declaring the outflanking and deep striking. And the WWP states that it can be used to enter from the portal edge INSTEAD of entering as normal. Normal in this case would be whichever way they were first coming onto the table, ex. embarked on the transport from the table edge. Since they are rolled for together (not as one unit, but together), they are still actually 3 separate units, so if I wanted to, I can bring Duke Sliscus through the WWP and leave the Warriors on the Raider coming on from the board edge, or I can bring Duke Sliscus and the Warriors on from the portal and bring the Raider on from the board edge, or I can leave them in the Raider and bring them on from the board edge, the choice is up to me, There is nothing that says that I have to decide to keep them in their dedicated transport, and instead using the board edge to bring them all on, except that last line in the BRB section of "Preparing Reserves" that says this decision cannot be changed later. Yet, according to the same section, Deep Striking and Outflanking are also determined at the same time, and hence are subject to that same line!!!! So why can I change them, and not the other???

You have asked me to show you a specific rule, and I just did.

Now, if you can show me somewhere that it states that they are one unit, then I will gladly concede this argument and say your right. But if you cant show me that it is one unit so it has to deploy together in exactly the same way, then you still don't have a leg to stand on, IMHO.

Galador wrote:Now, if you can show me somewhere that it states that they are one unit, then I will gladly concede this argument and say your right. But if you cant show me that it is one unit so it has to deploy together in exactly the same way, then you still don't have a leg to stand on, IMHO.

BRB page 94 under 'Preparing Reserves' 4th paragraph, "Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together."
So first part, you must roll for the transport and any unit is is carrying together.
When can you split them up?
BRB page 66 under 'Embarking and Disembarking', "Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the Movement phase."
Now if you have a raider in reserve carrying a unit of warriors, you roll for the raider and the warriors to arrive at the same time.
Once the raider has moved onto the board, the warriors may disembark and leave the transport.
Not before.