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Galador might well be right.

"Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together"

"Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later."

"Units arriving from reserve may move on from the portal marker's edge instead of entering normally"

So for an embarked unit 'arriving normally' would be embarked on their transport - or entering from the table edge, outflanking or deepstriking & as per the BRB FAQ "Q: Does a unit being transported by a vehicle that has arrived by Deep Stike that turn also count as having arrived by Deep Strike? (p95)
A: Yes."

The stipulation in the BRB of "Rolled for together and will arrive together" just furthure reenforces this position of they are indeed arrviing from reserves in 'XXYY' fashion, "Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later."

Webway grant the permission needed to break the deadlock as an embarked unit is a unit and does arrive from reserves.

time wizard wrote:BRB page 94 under 'Preparing Reserves' 4th paragraph, "Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together."
So first part, you must roll for the transport and any unit is is carrying together.
When can you split them up?
BRB page 66 under 'Embarking and Disembarking', "Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the Movement phase."
Now if you have a raider in reserve carrying a unit of warriors, you roll for the raider and the warriors to arrive at the same time.
Once the raider has moved onto the board, the warriors may disembark and leave the transport.
Not before.

As I said, they are rolled for together, but they are not the same unit. And its still a change in their deployment, because they are coming out of the webway portal, and you arrive from reserve and move onto the table in your Movement phase. So, since I am coming on at the beginning of the movement phase (otherwise I can't move onto the board, because the movement from reserve, whether deep strike, outflank, or table edge, is the units movement phase) I can disembark before the vehicle moves, and according to the BRB on pg 67, "if a vehicle has not yet moved, the passengers may disembark and move normally. The vehicle can then also move normally. The disembarked models can shoot(counting as moving) and assault normally." So, according to that, I can disembark on the reserve turn before the vehicle moves onto the board, and come in through the WWP. as I can enter NORMALLY, and the WWP lets you arrive through it instead of entering NORMALLY. The arrival of reserves is the beginning of the movement phase, not its own separate phase, otherwise, I could move my units on from reserve and then move them again as a regular movement.

As far as when I can split them up, it states they are rolled for together and arrive together, not that they have to arrive embarked on the transport. I can have them both arrive together by having the Raider come on from the table edge, or deep strike if I wish to use Duke's special rule, and I can have the infantry and Duke come through the portal. Hence, they were rolled for together and arrived together, so I am fulfilling the terms of that rule.
You still have yet to show me where it says I can't bring them in through the portal instead. I can't bring the vehicle through, that I knopw, but I am still waiting to see where it says they have to stay embarked instead of coming through the portal. I have shown you how I can separate them, as per the special rules of the WWP that allows infantry units to come through it "instead of entering normally." Normal, in this case, would be from the table edge, aboard the transport. I am changing that normal to through the WWP, as it states I can do.In fact, the only spot that it says you have to move onto the table embarked on the transport is in the outflank section. It says in the preparing that you have to state its carrying them, and that they have to arrive together, but nowhere does it state that they have to arrive together still on the transport. in fact, they are never said to be "embarked" on the transport at all! So if we really wanna devolve this even more, its basically just getting a unit for free without having to roll for it! I mean, that is really stretching it, but it seems as if you really wanna go severely strict into the RAW with this (as it seems you do), so there is how I can separate them. According to the RAW, they are never actually embarked, they are just being carried by it, so since they were never "embarked" as per RAW, they don't have to start in the transport.

Is that sticking directly to the text enough for you, or can we have some common sense on this to see the difference? The "and so on" is there for a reason, and I really can't think of any other type of deployment it would change, especially not for the Dark Eldar, because the only three ways our units deploy is by Deep Striking, Outflanking with Mandrakes, or coming on from our table edge, so why, if those are the only three ways we deploy, and they are all covered in the WWP rules specifically, would you put the "and so on" after covering all three of those??? The only other change to our deployment would be starting in a transport..........


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:Galador might well be right.

"Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together"

"Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later."

"Units arriving from reserve may move on from the portal marker's edge instead of entering normally"

So for an embarked unit 'arriving normally' would be embarked on their transport - or entering from the table edge, outflanking or deepstriking & as per the BRB FAQ "Q: Does a unit being transported by a vehicle that has arrived by Deep Stike that turn also count as having arrived by Deep Strike? (p95)
A: Yes."

The stipulation in the BRB of "Rolled for together and will arrive together" just furthure reenforces this position of they are indeed arrviing from reserves in 'XXYY' fashion, "Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later."

Webway grant the permission needed to break the deadlock as an embarked unit is a unit and does arrive from reserves.

You just became my new best friend......

Galador wrote: I can disembark before the vehicle moves, and according to the BRB on pg 67, "if a vehicle has not yet moved, the passengers may disembark and move normally. The vehicle can then also move normally. The disembarked models can shoot(counting as moving) and assault normally." So, according to that, I can disembark on the reserve turn before the vehicle moves onto the board, and come in through the WWP.

In order to disembark, each model deploys with 2" of on of the vehicle's access points. Care to show me where the vehicle's access point is if it is not on the board yet? Are you actually saying you can disembark from a transport that is off the table? off the table? Are you telling me you are going to hover the raider off the table to deploy the infantry onto the table?

Galador wrote: but I am still waiting to see where it says they have to stay embarked instead of coming through the portal.

And I'm still waiting for you to show me where it says that a unit embarked in a transport in reserve can disembark or otherwise separate from the transport before it moves onto the board.

time wizard wrote:

Galador wrote: I can disembark before the vehicle moves, and according to the BRB on pg 67, "if a vehicle has not yet moved, the passengers may disembark and move normally. The vehicle can then also move normally. The disembarked models can shoot(counting as moving) and assault normally." So, according to that, I can disembark on the reserve turn before the vehicle moves onto the board, and come in through the WWP.

In order to disembark, each model deploys with 2" of on of the vehicle's access points. Care to show me where the vehicle's access point is if it is not on the board yet? Are you actually saying you can disembark from a transport that is off the table? off the table? Are you telling me you are going to hover the raider off the table to deploy the infantry onto the table?

Galador wrote: but I am still waiting to see where it says they have to stay embarked instead of coming through the portal.

And I'm still waiting for you to show me where it says that a unit embarked in a transport in reserve can disembark or otherwise separate from the transport before it moves onto the board.

I did. You wanted exact RAW rules showing where they can disembark while off the table and so on, and I showed you were, according to RAW, they aren't actually embarked, unless they are outflanking, and seeing as Mandrakes can't take a dedicated transport, we have nothing that according to RAW that can "embark" upon a transport in reserve, we can only "carry" our models on the transport. Since they aren't RAW "embarked" they don't need to be disembarked, so that should cover what you wanted.Didn't wanna devolve it this far for what I see as a simple issue, but hey, you asked for specifics.

Also, look up at ChrisCP's post, that might help clarify things for you a bit.

And as far as the hovering it off the table, well.... it is a anti grav skimmer, so it does hover.........

Galador wrote: I did. You wanted exact RAW rules showing where they can disembark while off the table and so on, and I showed you were, according to RAW, they aren't actually embarked, unless they are outflanking, and seeing as Mandrakes can't take a dedicated transport, we have nothing that according to RAW that can "embark" upon a transport in reserve, we can only "carry" our models on the transport. Since they aren't RAW "embarked" they don't need to be disembarked, so that should cover what you wanted.Didn't wanna devolve it this far for what I see as a simple issue, but hey, you asked for specifics.

So according to you, I can have a truck with a squad of boys in it, roll for it to arrive from reserves, and then move the truck on from the table edge and then move the boys on from the table edge, because you are saying that, according to RAW, the boys aren't actually embarked, they are just being carried by the truck and so they can disembark while off the table. Correct?

Galador wrote:And as far as the hovering it off the table, well.... it is a anti grav skimmer, so it does hover.........

So anti grav skimmers arriving from reserve can hover off the table? Interesting! So I don't have to move the skimmer completely onto the table from reserve.

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

So this FAQ is wrong too?

time wizard wrote:

Galador wrote: I did. You wanted exact RAW rules showing where they can disembark while off the table and so on, and I showed you were, according to RAW, they aren't actually embarked, unless they are outflanking, and seeing as Mandrakes can't take a dedicated transport, we have nothing that according to RAW that can "embark" upon a transport in reserve, we can only "carry" our models on the transport. Since they aren't RAW "embarked" they don't need to be disembarked, so that should cover what you wanted.Didn't wanna devolve it this far for what I see as a simple issue, but hey, you asked for specifics.

So according to you, I can have a truck with a squad of boys in it, roll for it to arrive from reserves, and then move the truck on from the table edge and then move the boys on from the table edge, because you are saying that, according to RAW, the boys aren't actually embarked, they are just being carried by the truck and so they can disembark while off the table. Correct?

Basically, according to RAW, as it seems you want to be dead on exactly what the text says, and unless its specifically stated, the word can mean nothing else, then yes you can, because they were never "embarked" in the first place. And technically, if you wish to continue to follow the exact wording, they dont have to disembark, because they were never "embarked" and you only have to disembark a vehicle you were embarked upon.

time wizard wrote:

Galador wrote:And as far as the hovering it off the table, well.... it is a anti grav skimmer, so it does hover.........

So anti grav skimmers arriving from reserve can hover off the table? Interesting! So I don't have to move the skimmer completely onto the table from reserve.

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

So this FAQ is wrong too?

Who said anything about not moving completely onto the board?? I believe I stated that it would move on from the board edge, as per how it was originally supposed to deploy, hence fulfilling the skimmers rules for deployment from reserve. So how is it not moving completely making it onto the board?

But I think I understand the mis-communication, I will refrain from trying to joke and lighten the mood in the future, as you didn't seem to understand the quip.

Galador wrote: Basically, according to RAW, as it seems you want to be dead on exactly what the text says, and unless its specifically stated, the word can mean nothing else, then yes you can, because they were never "embarked" in the first place. And technically, if you wish to continue to follow the exact wording, they dont have to disembark, because they were never "embarked" and you only have to disembark a vehicle you were embarked upon.

I just want to be clear as to where we are here. You are saying that, according to RAW, when a transport is "carrying" a unit, the unit is not "embarked" on the transport?

Galador wrote:But I think I understand the mis-communication, I will refrain from trying to joke and lighten the mood in the future, as you didn't seem to understand the quip.

Hey, don't take me the wrong way, please. Joking and lightening the mood is something I try to do as well. I enjoy rules debates, and try to keep my tone civil. If I came across as something of a harda$$, not my intent. Sorry.
So now look again at the above, balls back in your court.

time wizard wrote:

Galador wrote: Basically, according to RAW, as it seems you want to be dead on exactly what the text says, and unless its specifically stated, the word can mean nothing else, then yes you can, because they were never "embarked" in the first place. And technically, if you wish to continue to follow the exact wording, they dont have to disembark, because they were never "embarked" and you only have to disembark a vehicle you were embarked upon.

I just want to be clear as to where we are here. You are saying that, according to RAW, when a transport is "carrying" a unit, the unit is not "embarked" on the transport?

Yes, if you get into the exact grammatical wording. However, so we don't go any deeper into 10th grade English class(it has been too many years for me to remember back that far, and my English teachers would shoot me for all I've forgotten) let's go back to ChrisCP's post for a seccond. He posted in the ruling from the BRB FAQ about how units aboard a deepstriking transport count as deepstriking. So why is it that they count as deepstriking if they aren't allowed to deepstrike??? According to the BRB, you have to have the ability to deep strike if your going to deeps strike, and last I knew, vehicles didn't confer their abilities onto units, it was the other way around, and that was only with Infiltrate and Scout. So why would GW rule this way??? Because if the transport is coming in via Deep Strike, obviously the passengers are deep striking in also, correct??? But you said that they are arriving via transport, which would mean they AREN'T deepstriking in, because they are embarked on the transport. All transports that deep strike count as moving at cruising speed, so I could then disembark, shoot or fleet, and then assault with a unit in my open topped Raider that has just Deep struck onto the board. That is, if the method of arrival was embarked on a transport only. But its not. Its embarked on a transport that is deepstriking, so the infantry is deepstriking also, according to GW. So if that is the case, the logic would suggest that if I have a transport with the outflank rule, and it is outflanking with a unit embarked on it that doesn't have the rule, then the unit would still count as outflanking, because the vehicle lets it, correct??(I know that no vehicles can outflank or confer things, but just go with me on this tangent for a bit ok?? I promise, its a wild ride!! ) Now, the unit can't outflank, but if we go with the deep strike ruling laid down by GW, that would mean that the unit is arriving by outflank because they are embarked on the transport that can outflank. Now then, if I move the transport on from the board edge, then the unit would be arriving from the board edge also, correct? Even though its embarked on the transport, its still arriving from the board edge. Now then, which one of those does the WWP rules change??? All of them! Now granted, I would no longer be deep striking/outflanking/moving on from the table edge with the vehicle, but I am still arriving on the board in the turn that I rolled their reserve roll, and I am still fufilling all the requirements that the arriving from reserves asks for, aka that the unit and the transport arrive together. Nowhere in the arriving from reserve does it state that they must arrive embarked upon the transport, it just states they have to arrive together. Now, in outflank, it states that they can come on with their transport, but they must do so embarked upon it. But other than that, there is nowhere in arriving from reserve that it says I have to be embarked on the transport when I come in, just that I have to arrive on the same turn as it, aka "together."

time wizard wrote:

Galador wrote:But I think I understand the mis-communication, I will refrain from trying to joke and lighten the mood in the future, as you didn't seem to understand the quip.

Hey, don't take me the wrong way, please. Joking and lightening the mood is something I try to do as well. I enjoy rules debates, and try to keep my tone civil. If I came across as something of a harda$$, not my intent. Sorry.
So now look again at the above, balls back in your court.

No harm done, I think I misunderstood you just as you me, possibly. Its so hard to read tone and intention through a computer screen!!

Ball is once again in your court.

First off, the FAQ about a unit arriving in a deep striking transport counting as arriving via deep striking was necessary for a number of issues in the deep strike section. It affirms that units arriving in a deep striking transport:
Treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain, and cannot assault even if they have fleet or the transport is open-topped.

The part of the outflank rule you refer to is there for the following reason.
Any dedicated transport can be placed in reserve either empty or transporting the unit is was selected with.
Scouts confer their scout ability to transports they are deployed in.
The scout rule confers the outflank ability.
If the outflank rule didn't specify what it did, players would think they could place a unit of scouts in reserve, place their dedicated transport in reserve empty, and then on subsequent turns outflank the scouts and their empty dedicated transport. That's why the rule says to outflank the scouts must move onto the table embarked in their transport, the transport can't outflank empty.

Galador wrote: Nowhere in the arriving from reserve does it state that they must arrive embarked upon the transport, it just states they have to arrive together.

It doesn't have to say they must arrive embarked in the transport, because a number of rules cover this already, as follows;
A transport 'carrying' a unit means the unit is embarked - page 66
A unit can only voluntarily disembark in the movement phase - page 67
A unit disembarks by deploying within 2" of an access point or the hull if the transport is open topped - page 67 and page 70
If a transport is carrying a unit, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together - page 94
When the reserve unit arrives it moves on from the controlling player's table edge (unless deep striking or outflanking) - page 94
Units arriving through the webway protal may move onto the board from the portal's edge instead of the table edge (or deep strike or outflank) - Codex DE page 62

So if you have (for example) a unit of warriors in a raider and they are held in reserve with the warriors embarked;
You roll for the raider and embarked warriors together.
They arrive together either moving on from the board edge or deep striking.
Once they arrive, the warriors may disembark from the raider by deploying within 2" of the hull.

The warriors cannot disembark from the raider before they and the raider arrive because there is no way to measure to the hull of a vehicle that is not on the board, and you can only disembark in the movement phase, not before you have arrived on the board.
That's why we don't need a rule that says you must arrive from reserve still embarked in your transport, it's because we have all these other rules detailing exactly how and when we may disembark from a transport.

Ok, I will address your whole post after I get back from work (on my lunch break right now) but you have yet to answer my other question I posted a few posts back.

Why would they put the "and so on" part in the WWP rules if they had already covered the only three things that the WWP could effect?? Seems kinda pointless, doesn't it??

And yes, even though it states they are rolled for together and arrive together, but you still have to show me where it says that the unit MUST arrive on the board aboard the transport. Even though I had them on it in reserve, there is nothing forcing them to arrive on it. they would disembark simultaneously with their arrive, because arriving is done at the start of the movement phase, as can disembarking, so if I want, I can disembark them into the portal that they would then come out of. After all, who knows if they are within the 2" of the portal when they disembarked?? The WWP bends space and time to make an instantaneous transport across massive distances, so maybe they were standing right next to it and decided to hop off and run through cause it would get them there faster??? I do so love theorizing lol. Gotta go back to work, will continue this later!

Galador wrote: Why would they put the "and so on" part in the WWP rules if they had already covered the only three things that the WWP could effect?? Seems kinda pointless, doesn't it??

Very good question! I don't know why. We could ask them but I don't think we'll get any kind of official answer.

Galador wrote:And yes, even though it states they are rolled for together and arrive together, but you still have to show me where it says that the unit MUST arrive on the board aboard the transport.

Nope, you have to show me where is says they don't have to arrive deployed in the transport.

Galador wrote:The WWP bends space and time to make an instantaneous transport across massive distances, so maybe they were standing right next to it and decided to hop off and run through cause it would get them there faster??? I do so love theorizing lol. Gotta go back to work, will continue this later!

Looking forward to it.

So galador: after dropping a webway portal I can remove my "watever" unit from the table and deploy them via the portal?

This fully fits within your "and so on" interpretation that as it is undefined we can make up whatever definition we want.

We are never given permission to disembark units from a transport until it is on the table. You embark during the "preparing reserves" step and cannot then disembark until the transport is on the table.

Kommissar Kel wrote:So galador: after dropping a webway portal I can remove my "watever" unit from the table and deploy them via the portal?

This fully fits within your "and so on" interpretation that as it is undefined we can make up whatever definition we want.

We are never given permission to disembark units from a transport until it is on the table. You embark during the "preparing reserves" step and cannot then disembark until the transport is on the table.

Home for a sec, still don't have time to address you, wizard, but I will get there, but Kommisar Kel, no you can't, because the WWP rules state anything arriving from reserve. So if the unit was already deployed, it can't arrive from reserve, now can it??

I am simply stating that the and so on is dealing with other instances of arriving from reserve, a.k.a embarked on a Raider/Venom. There must be a reason to put the "and so on" in there, otherwise there would be no need for it. The only other way that I know that a Dark Eldar character can come on from reserve is embarked, hence where my logic stems from.

You are also never given permission to change a units deep strike or outflank once you have declared it, EXCEPT when you deploy a WWP as it specifically overrides this.

Galador wrote: The only other way that I know that a Dark Eldar character can come on from reserve is embarked, hence where my logic stems from.

Or by deep strike!

Galador wrote:You are also never given permission to change a units deep strike or outflank once you have declared it, EXCEPT when you deploy a WWP as it specifically overrides this.

Now that I agree with 100%!

And time, I guess I do have the time to address you right now!

Lets change tac just a bit. Instead of focusing on the "and so on" portion, lets look a few words earlier, to where it says:

It does not matter and it then lists the three options we have been discussing, and adds the "and so on" clause.

So my newest twist to the argument: If you take the whole sentence into context, instead of just a piece, it breaks down into that it doesn't matter how they intended to come on to the board, they can now choose to come through the portal instead. So I once again go back to the fact that with the way the page is laid out, they were unable to list out every possibility of arriving from reserves, hence, the "and so on" ending to the sentence, to give a blanket to all deployment types available to the Dark Eldar, including arriving embarked (or carried ) on a transport.

So to sum it up: It does not matter where I was in reserves, because the portal is laid down, your opponent looks at you and says, "I'm changing it." And honestly, that is the simplest form of logic I can bring out to cover this, and I honestly can't see any new way you can dispute that once you add in the front 4 words of the sentence, because I can continue to look at you, and say that taking the context of the whole sentence as it is, instead of chopping it apart, that It does not matter and I can change the deployment as long as they aren't a vehicle trying to come through, which I have never stated they were trying to bring through.

Ball is back in your court!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

time wizard wrote:

Galador wrote: The only other way that I know that a Dark Eldar character can come on from reserve is embarked, hence where my logic stems from.

Or by deep strike!

We had already covered that a Dark Eldar unit could deeps strike! You forgetting what we already covered cause we've been going back and forth for so long??

I agree with the breakdown back on page 2.

When declaring our reserves we have three things we need to determine.

1. What units are in Reserve.
2. How those units are organized- ICs attached to which squads, which units are in which transports.
3. The method of arrival for each unit- DS, Outflank, or table edge.

The WWP gives explicit permission to change your mind about 3, and have the unit come out of the WWP instead of its declared method, but says nothing about overriding 1 or 2.

There are no guidelines or instructions given in the WWP for taking a unit in Reserve out of their transport, detaching ICs or attaching them, or otherwise rearranging the organization of units in reserve. And such explicit instructions would be needed to override the main rulebook's clear instructions, which make very clear that you cannot change these decisions once they've been made and the game has commenced.

Mannahnin wrote:I agree with the breakdown back on page 2.

When declaring our reserves we have three things we need to determine.

1. What units are in Reserve.
2. How those units are organized- ICs attached to which squads, which units are in which transports.
3. The method of arrival for each unit- DS, Outflank, or table edge.

The WWP gives explicit permission to change your mind about 3, and have the unit come out of the WWP instead of its declared method, but says nothing about overriding 1 or 2.

There are no guidelines or instructions given in the WWP for taking a unit in Reserve out of their transport, detaching ICs or attaching them, or otherwise rearranging the organization of units in reserve. And such explicit instructions would be needed to override the main rulebook's clear instructions, which make very clear that you cannot change these decisions once they've been made and the game has commenced.

But the WWP does make it clear, if you reread my previous post, it's the first 4 words, once again....

It does not matter how it was intended, the WWP is changing it.

And Mannahin, I ask you the same question as I ask to Time, why would they put the "and so on" in there if they had already covered all three ways that Dark Eldar can arrive from reserve???

Because you can arrive from reserve embarked in a transport, hence the "and so on" and the it does not matter you you first intended them to come on.


And just for the record, whenever I run my WWP armies, I only have two transports, and they both start on the board with the two WWP bearers in them, so no, I haven't tried this, but it might be useful in an one - of situation, but doubt it would be useful alot. It would be more likely a rare occurrence that you would need to even try this. Mostly keeping the thread going cause time and I are enjoying the debate

Galador wrote: It does not matter and it then lists the three options we have been discussing, and adds the "and so on" clause.

So my newest twist to the argument: If you take the whole sentence into context, instead of just a piece, it breaks down into that it doesn't matter how they intended to come on to the board, they can now choose to come through the portal instead. So I once again go back to the fact that with the way the page is laid out, they were unable to list out every possibility of arriving from reserves, hence, the "and so on" ending to the sentence, to give a blanket to all deployment types available to the Dark Eldar, including arriving embarked (or carried ) on a transport.

So to sum it up: It does not matter where I was in reserves, because the portal is laid down, your opponent looks at you and says, "I'm changing it." And honestly, that is the simplest form of logic I can bring out to cover this, and I honestly can't see any new way you can dispute that once you add in the front 4 words of the sentence, because I can continue to look at you, and say that taking the context of the whole sentence as it is, instead of chopping it apart, that It does not matter and I can change the deployment as long as they aren't a vehicle trying to come through, which I have never stated they were trying to bring through.

Okay, I can see that. But now look at the sentence that precedes that one. It says, "From then on, any of your units arriving from reserve..." and the point that I still maintain is that rolling for your units to arrive happens before they move onto the board.
You still have to roll for the unit's arrival as per the reserve rules, and that means that an embarked unit and the transport it is embarked in roll together and arrive together.
You can only change the manner of arriving on the table, but unfortunately not for vehicles since they can't come in through the portal.
All the webway portal does is give you a chance to bring non-vehicle units in somewhere else on the board instead of having to footslog across the whole board. That's why, if I have a WWP in my army, I'll leave a unit of warriors or wyches in reserve without a transport and will deploy the WWP on the first turn.

Galador wrote:We had already covered that a Dark Eldar unit could deeps strike! You forgetting what we already covered cause we've been going back and forth for so long??

I could just be forgetting because I'm so old!

I run WWP too; my Haemonics with WWPs either in Venoms with Trueborn or on foot with Harlies.

Arriving from reserve in a transport is not a method of arrival. A unit in a transport can arrive via any of the three normal methods- table edge, DS, or Outflanking, depending on its special rules.

Whether a unit in reserves is in a transport is part of how reserves are arranged/organized. The same as whether ICs are attached. To take back the Deployment Phase declaraction about whether a unit is in a transport you'd need some specific instruction; just the same as if you wanted to change whether a character was attached or not. It's the same thing.

As for the "and so on...", I think it's a generic coverall intended to cover special scenarios where units could arrive some other way (there was an Adepticon Gladiator scenario last year where units could come out of tunnel markers, and I think there's an Apocalypse strategy or something which does this too). Also maybe a coverall just in case future Forgeworld or Apoc books give a new way to arrive on the table out of Reserve.

time wizard wrote:Okay, I can see that. But now look at the sentence that precedes that one. It says, "From then on, any of your units arriving from reserve..." and the point that I still maintain is that rolling for your units to arrive happens before they move onto the board.
You still have to roll for the unit's arrival as per the reserve rules, and that means that an embarked unit and the transport it is embarked in roll together and arrive together.
You can only change the manner of arriving on the table, but unfortunately not for vehicles since they can't come in through the portal.
All the webway portal does is give you a chance to bring non-vehicle units in somewhere else on the board instead of having to footslog across the whole board. That's why, if I have a WWP in my army, I'll leave a unit of warriors or wyches in reserve without a transport and will deploy the WWP on the first turn.

Ok then lets take that sentence before it, like you said, but lets once again take the whole sentence, not just part of it.

"From then on, any of your units arriving from reserve may move onto the board from the portal marker's edge, instead of entering as normal." Now, I know that for an infantry unit, entering as normal covers a broad array of things... Deep striking, Outflanking, moving on from the board edge, and embarked in a dedicated transport. Or are you going to tell me that arriving on your dedicated transport is not normal?. It states nothing in this sentence about arriving, it says entering the board. There is nothing there that said you don't arrive as normal, A.k.a embarked on the transport. It says that you enter the board from the portal's edge. And to get really technical, a squad is not on the board when it is embarked in a transport, as they are removed from the table when they embark the transport. So once again, they are still fulfilling the rules of the deployment, by arriving as normal, a.k.a rolling with the transport and arriving with the transport, they are simply entering the board in a way that is not normal, which is allowed by the WWP rules. and then we get to those 4 favorite words of mine......

it does not matter....

Back in your court once again, time.....

Edited for spelling cause I was typing to fast with carpal tunnel.... I hate getting old!!!

Galador wrote:Ok, then in your opinion, from the way I am perceiving it, if coming onto the board embarked on a transport from reserve is not arriving from reserve, how are the models coming out of reserve???

No, that isn't at all what he's saying.

Entering from your board edge is a method of entry from reserves. You are entering by that method regardless of whether you are embarked on a transport or not.

Entering on foot from your board edge is not a different method of entry from entering on a transport from your board edge which is what you are arguing for.

Galador wrote: "From then on, any of your units arriving from reserve may move onto the board from the portal marker's edge, instead of entering as normal." Now, I know that for an infantry unit, entering as normal covers a broad array of things... Deep striking, Outflanking, moving on from the board edge, and embarked in a dedicated transport. Or are you going to tell me that arriving on your dedicated transport is not normal?. It states nothing in this sentence about arriving, it says entering the board. There is nothing there that said you don't arrive as normal, A.k.a embarked on the transport. It says that you enter the board from the portal's edge. And to get really technical, a squad is not on the board when it is embarked in a transport, as they are removed from the table when they embark the transport. So once again, they are still fulfilling the rules of the deployment, by arriving as normal, a.k.a rolling with the transport and arriving with the transport, they are simply entering the board in a way that is not normal, which is allowed by the WWP rules. and then we get to those 4 favorite words of mine......

it does not matter....

In the first place, the rule does say "units arriving from reserve" and "may move onto the board" so once again the unit must first arrive from reserve and (not to beat the dead horse) the unit, transport and embarked unit, are rolled for and arrive together. And riding to battle embarked in a transport is perfectly normal, the Russian army (and others) did it all the time in WWII!
The main sticking point here is that I continue to maintain that the rules of the web way portal do not give permission to change the organization of reserves, they only give permission to change where the unit moves on from. The units may move on from the edge of the portal instead of from the table edge, or deep striking, or outflanking.

The squad being not "on the table" is reserved for another debate!

Galador wrote:Edited for spelling cause I was typing to fast with carpal tunnel.... I hate getting old!!!

Trust me, it beats the alternative!

Eyesedragon wrote:Yes I am saying that a unit that has paid for a transport (discounted or not ) is deployed with it . It does not say anywhere that you can" choose" to remove the unit from the purchased dedicated transport even though they are seperate units., though it does say you can have an" empty" transport not " disembarked " transport. What i'm trying to get at here is that it's not fair for example for me to choose 3 elite spots ( which can choose a ws for a discount of 25 pts) just so i can get the ws's on the board for cheaper.

I have played Eldar for a long time, and I want to share two things here:

1) It is perfectly fair to buy 3 elite choices and 3 wave serpents for them as dedicated transports, and splitting them up so that they either deploy separately and/or that they are placed in reserve separately. However, most players don't go for this option, as it wouldn't always give you an advantage.
2) Falcon and Wave Serpents, though they look similar, are two completely different vehicles with two completely different roles to play. One is a heavy support, the other is a dedicated transport vehicles.

To say that a Wave Serpent is like a discount for Falcon is like a Razorback is like a discount for Predator.

My Statements were intentionally fallacious.

The point was that Specific permissions are allowed: disembarking from the transport while in reserves in order to enter the table via the WWP is not one of them.

the one, non-specific Permission is also undefined; which means it is absolutely useless.

time wizard wrote:In the first place, the rule does say "units arriving from reserve" and "may move onto the board" so once again the unit must first arrive from reserve and (not to beat the dead horse) the unit, transport and embarked unit, are rolled for and arrive together. And riding to battle embarked in a transport is perfectly normal, the Russian army (and others) did it all the time in WWII!
The main sticking point here is that I continue to maintain that the rules of the web way portal do not give permission to change the organization of reserves, they only give permission to change where the unit moves on from. The units may move on from the edge of the portal instead of from the table edge, or deep striking, or outflanking.

The squad being not "on the table" is reserved for another debate!

Ok, so just so I'm clear, before I go any further in my arguement.... you did just agree with me that entering embarked on the transport is normal, correct?


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Kommissar Kel wrote:My Statements were intentionally fallacious.

The point was that Specific permissions are allowed: disembarking from the transport while in reserves in order to enter the table via the WWP is not one of them.

the one, non-specific Permission is also undefined; which means it is absolutely useless.

Specific permissions are allowed, and so are general permissions, a.k.a. "and so on". Everyone can ignore it all they wish, but the fact it, it is placed in the RULE of the webway portal, not the FLUFF part at the beginning of the description. Hence, it does have bearing on the rule. I am simply determining what the bearing is, IMHO. I don't agree with Mannahin either that it is left open form something in the future, simply because GW usually isn't that forward-thinking to do that, when they can either Errata it later, or release a whole new codex to make more money.

Galador wrote:
Ok, so just so I'm clear, before I go any further in my arguement.... you did just agree with me that entering embarked on the transport is normal, correct?

To the point that being embarked in a transport is a 'normal' game condition that can be exercised by infantry units.
The relationship between an transport and its passengers is a "sometimes they are together and sometimes they are apart" thing.
They move together, but not as one unit, for if they did they would have to move at the speed of the slowest model, in this case the infantry model.
If the transport moves, the embarked unit also counts as having moved so cant fire heavy weapon (unless relentless, etc.).
They can shoot at 2 different targets.
You can target a transpot, but not the passengers.
There are many more but the important one for our debate is that when they arrive from reserve they must be rolled for together and must arrive together.
That may or may not a 'normal' way for them to arrive, but it is the only way they can arrive from reserve (if they were placed in reserve embarked in the transport), by RAW.

time wizard wrote:

Galador wrote:
Ok, so just so I'm clear, before I go any further in my arguement.... you did just agree with me that entering embarked on the transport is normal, correct?

To the point that being embarked in a transport is a 'normal' game condition that can be exercised by infantry units.
The relationship between an transport and its passengers is a "sometimes they are together and sometimes they are apart" thing.
They move together, but not as one unit, for if they did they would have to move at the speed of the slowest model, in this case the infantry model.
If the transport moves, the embarked unit also counts as having moved so cant fire heavy weapon (unless relentless, etc.).
They can shoot at 2 different targets.
You can target a transpot, but not the passengers.
There are many more but the important one for our debate is that when they arrive from reserve they must be rolled for together and must arrive together.
That may or may not a 'normal' way for them to arrive, but it is the only way they can arrive from reserve (if they were placed in reserve embarked in the transport), by RAW.

now see, thats not what you said in the last post... you stated that arriving embarked in a transport is perfectly "normal" , hence the WWP counters it.

Can you show me where it states that arriving embarked on a transport is not normal??? It does not tell you that arriving on the transport is a special way to bring the troops on the board, it states that any unit can arrive on the board in their dedicated transport. Hence, that would make arriving embarked on the transport a "normal" way of arriving on the board.

And would everyone please stop going back to the organization of reserves?? I have said nothing about changing the organization of reserves for a while, I moved on to other points that have yet to be shot down, the organization one was, I admit that. However, them being embarked on the transport or not is the organization part. Them arriving on the transport is *not*. I have not once said that they would not arrive together. I have every time stated that they would arrive on the same turn as the transport, just from different ways.

Note it also states of dedicated transports that they can only be deployed, and consequently kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the units was selected with (plus and independent characters). I am fulfilling both of these actually, as they are kept in reserve in it, and it is being deployed empty.

Nowhere does it state that I can't leave them in reserve embarked, and then have them walk onto the board on the same turn as the transport, as long as I fulfill the requirement of rolling for them together, and that they arrive together, of which I can fulfill both, although I feel that the one roll for both is not fair, but hey, it was shown to me that its only one roll, but hasn't yet been shown where in the arriving from reserves that it states that have to arrive embarked on the transport, simply that they have to arrive together, the condition of which is being fulfilled.

But I state once again, if arriving by transport is normal, then the WWP can change it, as per its rules of "instead of entering as normal." also note, that the "instead of entering as normal" part is before the talk of deep strike or any other way of arriving, but the "and so on" is after the deep strike and other ways of arriving.

and by RAW, they have to arrive together, not embarked.

Back to you again, time!!

Frigging spelling errors!!!

Galador wrote:Nowhere does it state that I can't leave them in reserve embarked, and then have them walk onto the board on the same turn as the transport, as long as I fulfill the requirement of rolling for them together, and that they arrive together, of which I can fulfill both, although I feel that the one roll for both is not fair, but hey, it was shown to me that its only one roll, but hasn't yet been shown where in the arriving from reserves that it states that have to arrive embarked on the transport, simply that they have to arrive together, the condition of which is being fulfilled

Except that you have already specified that they are embarked and you have no permission to disembark prior to the movement phase when they arrive?

You need to show where in the rules it allows you remove them from the transport which you have already specified is carrying them.


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Galador wrote:Nowhere does it state that I can't

Once you have to pull this, it generally signifies the end of your argument.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Galador wrote:Nowhere does it state that I can't leave them in reserve embarked, and then have them walk onto the board on the same turn as the transport, as long as I fulfill the requirement of rolling for them together, and that they arrive together, of which I can fulfill both, although I feel that the one roll for both is not fair, but hey, it was shown to me that its only one roll, but hasn't yet been shown where in the arriving from reserves that it states that have to arrive embarked on the transport, simply that they have to arrive together, the condition of which is being fulfilled

Except that you have already specified that they are embarked and you have no permission to disembark prior to the movement phase when they arrive?

You need to show where in the rules it allows you remove them from the transport which you have already specified is carrying them.

How may times do I have to point to the same rule??? the WWP rule states that I can move onto the board from the portal's edge, "instead of entering as normal."

I feel like a broken record, especially when this part is coupled thw the "it does not matter" and the "and so on" portions of the rule. You need to read the entire rule, not just the sections that fit your interpretation. I have done this, and it shows me that no matter what way I was going to come onto the board, once I have rolled for reserve and passed the roll, I am then onto the arriving part of reserves, and this is where I can change the infantry units arrival.

Should I just copy and paste this a few more times until you actually read the entire rule?? or are you going to continue to tell me that there are only specifics in the rule, and that the "and so on" section of the rule counts for nothing, it was just put in there to waste ink???

I meam seriously, if you need every little detail spelled out exactly for you, maybe you should take up Risk instead of a more complex game?? OR is it that your worried someone is going to start bringing tons of Raiders with units embarked on them then bring them on through a WWP to surprise you??? I think that by now, as much as we have debated this, if it surprises you when they do this, all hope is lost....


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Galador wrote:Nowhere does it state that I can't

Once you have to pull this, it generally signifies the end of your argument.

Galador wrote: Note it also states of dedicated transports that they can only be deployed, and consequently kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the units was selected with (plus and independent characters). I am fulfilling both of these actually, as they are kept in reserve in it, and it is being deployed empty.

That is a classic misuse of the 'either/or' operation!
You can keep the dedicated transport in reserve empty, and deploy it empty
~OR~
You can keep the dedicated transport in reserve with the unit it was selected with embarked, and deploy the transport and the unit onto the table.
If what you were suggesting was true, I could keep a dedicated transport and the unit that selcected it in reserve with the transport empty, roll for them to arrive, and if both arrive at the same time now put the unit in the transport. No can do.

Galador wrote:and by RAW, they have to arrive together, not embarked.

The only way for a dedicated transport and the unit that selected it to arrive together is if they unit is embarked.
If not, they could both be rolled for separately, arrive on the same turn, arrive from the same board edge, but they are not together.