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Tell me chaps, is it possible to buy a unit of Wyches with a Raider, start the unit off in reserve, and then opt to bring the wyches through the portal, but not the raider that was bought for the squad? How exactly do the rules work in this particular scenario?

Cheers!

The rules say that a unit on board a transport and that transport "will arrive together". There is no option to separate them again.

You have to make the decision before the game. As you decide at that point if you are going to deploy the transport and unit together or seperate. If you chose to ride in a transport you roll for both a single unit, if you chose to not ride they are seperate units for purposes of rolling when they come in. In other words you wouldn't be able to reserve them in the transport, and then bring them in using the WWB because they must arrive in their vehicle.

Thanks for that gents. I thought that was the case, but then noted an incidence of a chap separating to bring in a unit that had bought a raider through a portal, and wondered if I was missing something.

Ketara wrote:then noted an incidence of a chap separating to bring in a unit that had bought a raider through a portal, and wondered if I was missing something.

Buying a raider doesn't require you to deploy in it. He must choose whether or not they're on board when he puts them into reserve though.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Ketara wrote:then noted an incidence of a chap separating to bring in a unit that had bought a raider through a portal, and wondered if I was missing something.

Buying a raider doesn't require you to deploy in it. He must choose whether or not they're on board when he puts them into reserve though.

So choosing to keep both in reseve, deploy them separately, and bring the uni through the webway and the vehicle on like normal is fully legal then?

When you put them into reserves you have to declare if the unit is embarked or not. pg. 94 preparing for reserves, 4th paragraph

If they are put into reserves together they have to deploy together. If they are put into reserves separately you'll roll for them separately and the unit may not deploy embarked even if they come on at the same time.

I think what he's getting at is that the wychs took the vechicle as a dedicated transport for a smaller price , then tried to seperate them before bringing them in from reserve. That from my knowledge is illegal

Eyesedragon wrote:I think what he's getting at is that the wychs took the vechicle as a dedicated transport for a smaller price , then tried to seperate them before bringing them in from reserve. That from my knowledge is illegal

No, it isn't. You do not have to start in your dedicated transport. The only restriction is that no-one else can start in it.


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Ketara wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Ketara wrote:then noted an incidence of a chap separating to bring in a unit that had bought a raider through a portal, and wondered if I was missing something.

Buying a raider doesn't require you to deploy in it. He must choose whether or not they're on board when he puts them into reserve though.

So choosing to keep both in reseve, deploy them separately, and bring the uni through the webway and the vehicle on like normal is fully legal then?

Exactly.

But if you choose to come on normally then they cannot come on embarked in the raider, even if they both arrive on the same turn.

That makes no sense. If a unit starts the game in a transport whether or not it starts on the board or in reserve it is part of the unit. I would argue that in any game that someone tried to pull that crap. Because you are getting a transport for a "discounted" price , ( oh you want to seperate that ? well how much does the troop discount the transport ? oh 20 pts ? Judge! his list is over pts by 20.....

Eyesedragon wrote:That makes no sense. If a unit starts the game in a transport whether or not it starts on the board or in reserve it is part of the unit. I would argue that in any game that someone tried to pull that crap. Because you are getting a transport for a "discounted" price , ( oh you want to seperate that ? well how much does the troop discount the transport ? oh 20 pts ? Judge! his list is over pts by 20.....

And you'd be wrong. See Rulebook, page 94, "Preparing reserves", fourth paragraph.

Eyesedragon wrote:That makes no sense. If a unit starts the game in a transport whether or not it starts on the board or in reserve it is part of the unit. I would argue that in any game that someone tried to pull that crap. Because you are getting a transport for a "discounted" price , ( oh you want to seperate that ? well how much does the troop discount the transport ? oh 20 pts ? Judge! his list is over pts by 20.....

A squad and their transport are not a unit. If they were the squad would have to stay in coherency with it (they don't) would have to shoot at the same target (they don't) and wouldn't be able to embark (they can).

I suggest you go back and read the definition of a unit on P3.

As for the discount, most dedicated transports are not available to buy separately and, when they are, are almost never discounted.

It says the transport can be empty but does not imply that you can "take " the unit out .

" Remember that a dedicated transport can only be deployed ,and consequently can only be kept reserve , either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with ( plus any IC's)

Just to agree with Mandor and Scott-S6.

page 94 is very clear on this issue. Units do not have to be put into reserve embarked on their dedicated transport. But if they are put into reserve embarked, they will arrive embarked. And if they were not put into reserve embarked they cannot arrive embarked.

A dedicated transport can only transport the unit it was bought for. Which is very different from saying that it has to be deployed or put into reserve carrying the unit it was bought for.

okay well until you can tell me the EXACT paragraph that it says "take the unit out of the transport" im sticking to my guns

I think you are missing an important distinction, Eyesedragon.

Eyesedragon wrote:That makes no sense. If a unit starts the game in a transport whether or not it starts on the board or in reserve it is part of the unit.

That is somewhat correct. If a unit starts in its transport, it is indeed connected in the way that units and their transport are. Meaning that when kept in Reserve they will come in on a single roll and the transported unit cannot enter through a WWB while the transport comes in from the table edge.

BUT

If the unit does not start in their transport (and are kept in Reserve), they are rolled for separately and can enter separately (the unit through the WWB and the transport from the board edge).

A unit is never forced to begin the game, in Reserve or not, inside their transport.

Okay by that description if a unit can be " removed" from its transport then ill go ahead and run three elite spots and give them all wave serpents and save 75 pts and bring them in seperately .
Is that fair? no I don't think so

What is this "removed" you keep referring to? You seem to imply that a unit that buys a transport HAVE to deploy inside it at the beginning of the game. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, you can take three Elite choices, give them Wave Serpents (assuming the Elite choices have that option) and then deploy them separately.
I don't know what 75 points you are saving. Please explain.

I really don't see the issue here. Can you elaborate a bit

Eyesedragon wrote:okay well until you can tell me the EXACT paragraph that it says "take the unit out of the transport" im sticking to my guns

page 67 box on dedicated transports "when it is deployed it can only carry", not it must carry.
page 92 under 'Multiple Unit Choices' "apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects"
page 94 under "Preparing Reseves' "the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the of the"

Now it's your turn. Where is the rule that says a unit has to be deployed embarked in its dedicated transport?

Well in the ruling it does not impy where the unit that would be in a transport goes.. Thats what im saying . It does not imply that it can be removed from it either. It says it can be emty ... And i assumed that all dedicated transports gave discounts ..

Steelmage99 wrote:
I don't know what 75 points you are saving. Please explain.

I assume he's only just realized that he could have been buying Wave Serpents at 90 points a pop instead of Falcons at 115 points a pop.


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Eyesedragon wrote:Well in the ruling it does not impy where the unit that would be in a transport goes.. Thats what im saying . It does not imply that it can be removed from it either. It says it can be emty ... And i assumed that all dedicated transports gave discounts ..

It goes wherever a unit would go if you'd never bought a transport for it! The unit and the transport are two separate units.

It does not say either that it has to be in the transport or that you can in fact take the unit out of the transport .

What is this "removed" you keep referring to? You seem to imply that a unit that buys a transport HAVE to deploy inside it at the beginning of the game. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, you can take three Elite choices, give them Wave Serpents (assuming the Elite choices have that option) and then deploy them separately.
I don't know what 75 points you are saving. Please explain.

I really don't see the issue here. Can you elaborate a bit

Yes I am saying that a unit that has paid for a transport (discounted or not ) is deployed with it . It does not say anywhere that you can" choose" to remove the unit from the purchased dedicated transport even though they are seperate units., though it does say you can have an" empty" transport not " disembarked " transport. What i'm trying to get at here is that it's not fair for example for me to choose 3 elite spots ( which can choose a ws for a discount of 25 pts) just so i can get the ws's on the board for cheaper.

Eyesedragon, please take the time to write exactly what you mean. Keep in mind that I cannot hear the tone of your voice or where you put the emphasis in a given sentence.

Eyesedragon wrote:Yes I am saying that a unit that has paid for a transport (discounted or not ) is deployed with it .

If you mean that a unit MUST start the game deployed in their dedicated transport, then I am afraid that you are mistaken.
The wording is important. While you can start the game inside your dedicated transport, you are not forced to. That would, in the context of the 40k rules, require the use of "must" or "are required to".

It does not say anywhere that you can" choose" to remove the unit from the purchased dedicated transport even though they are seperate units.

There you go using "remove" again. As we are discussing the rules, you should attempt to stick to the wording used in the rules.
Either a unit is "deployed" in the transport (happens in the beginning of the game during Deployment) or it "embarks" (happens during the game).
In order to leave the vehicle, the unit have to "disembark" (either voluntarily during the Movement Phase or involuntarily during the enemy Shooting Phase*)

There is no use of the word "remove" in these rules. "Remove" is used for a different purpose in a different section of the rules.

, though it does say you can have an" empty" transport not " disembarked " transport.

This is rather important.

What i'm trying to get at here is that it's not fair for example for me to choose 3 elite spots just so i can get the ws's on the board for cheaper.

You might not think it is fair, but that is the rules. Space Wolves/Blood Angels uses this to field "Razorspam"-armies and Imperial Guard uses it to field loads of Chimeras.

( which can choose a ws for a discount of 25 pts)

A discount of 25 points? Compared to what? Where do you EXACTLY get this point discount from. Please be very specific and answer me like I am a six-year old.


Also I apologize for cutting your sentence apart, but it makes answering a lot easier.

*There are further exceptions but they aren't really relevant for the purpose of this thread.

My wave serpant normally costs 115 pts without any upgrades or taking a main weapon. Choosing an elite from my codex lets me take a dedicated transport for 90 pts which saves me 25 pts and a elite spot ( wave serpant in my codex is an elite ) Which means for me I can run 3 infantry elites with 3 transport s at a discount of 75 points which is good for me because eldar are have expensive units.
If the agreed idea is that you can seperate a unit from its transport in reserve then I guess you can . Im just screaming that it does not actually say that .

Eyesedragon wrote:Yes I am saying that a unit that has paid for a transport (discounted or not ) is deployed with it . It does not say anywhere that you can" choose" to remove the unit from the purchased dedicated transport even though they are seperate units., though it does say you can have an" empty" transport not " disembarked " transport. What i'm trying to get at here is that it's not fair for example for me to choose 3 elite spots ( which can choose a ws for a discount of 25 pts) just so i can get the ws's on the board for cheaper.

Yes you can and should be doing that.

Cheers.

Eyesedragon wrote:My wave serpant normally costs 115 pts without any upgrades or taking a main weapon.

It seems like you are accidentally mixing up Falcons (which are taken as a Heavy Support choice) and Wave Serpents (which can only be fielded as a Dedicated Transport bought alongside another unit).

Keep in mind that these are two different vehicles with separate rules and options.

Which means for me I can run 3 infantry elites with 3 transport s at a discount of 75 points which is good for me because eldar are have expensive units.

Yes, you can.

If the agreed idea is that you can seperate a unit from its transport in reserve then I guess you can . Im just screaming that it does not actually say that .

I am trying to say, that in the context of the rules, it doesn't have to. I am not saying that your are disembarking while in Reserve. I am saying that the unit isn't embarked to begin with.
The natural state for a unit is to be outside its transport. We are then told how they get in it, and out of it again.

Because the rules for embarking talks about it happening in the Movement Phase, GW had to make a set of rules allowing units to start the game in Reserve inside their transport.
This is an option given to us. Not a requirement.

You should be happy. Your Eldar are now better than you previously thought.

Eyesedragon wrote:My wave serpant normally costs 115 pts without any upgrades or taking a main weapon. Choosing an elite from my codex lets me take a dedicated transport for 90 pts which saves me 25 pts and a elite spot ( wave serpant in my codex is an elite ) Which means for me I can run 3 infantry elites with 3 transport s at a discount of 75 points which is good for me because eldar are have expensive units.

There is no discount. Wave serpents are 90pts and purchased only as dedicated transports. Falcons are 115 points and may not be purchased as dedicate transports.

Eyesedragon wrote: If the agreed idea is that you can seperate a unit from its transport in reserve then I guess you can . Im just screaming that it does not actually say that .

Actually, the rules say that explicitly. I would refer you to P94 "Remember that a dedicated transport can only be deployed, and consequently can only be kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it was was selected with."

There is no rule whatsoever which says the a unit which purchases a dedicated transport must be deployed in it. If you believe that this is the case then please offer some rules to backup this point - so far you have offered nothing.

Not really I already knew that taking a wave sepant with unit would save me pts its just the rules get implied not defined so..... Thank you for taking the time to break it down