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Detonator wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:I think it's a popular misconception that BS doesn't matter alot to blast weapons. It matters a whole lot. One inch to the left or right can be the difference between a direct hit, and just showering the enemy with useless shrapnel. It's not as obvious, this is true, but look at it this way.

With no BS reduction, you have a 1/3 chance of scoring a direct hit. With BS3, you have a 1/4 chance that even if you scatter, you will scatter 0 inches, leading to grand total of a 5/12 chance of not scattering at all. Reducing that BS3 to BS1 changes that chance of not scattering to only 1/3.

Actualy it is only Ordnance weapons tha are effected. if it just says blast you do not have to roll the scatter die. Only when it says Ordnance must you.

That was true in 3rd edition, but it is not true any more.

I suggest you read page 30 of BGB for details on how to resolve blast weapons.

ChrisWWII wrote:With no BS reduction, you have a 1/3 chance of scoring a direct hit. With BS3, you have a 1/4 chance that even if you scatter, you will scatter 0 inches, leading to grand total of a 5/12 chance of not scattering at all. Reducing that BS3 to BS1 changes that chance of not scattering to only 1/3.

Please, Chris, for my sake. if you're gonna throw out percentages, have them make sense. With BS3, you have a 25% (1/4) chance to scatter zero inches? I think not. With 2D6, you see the percentage chances of rolling each below...


Dice Score---Result exactly
2-------------------2.77
3-------------------5.55
4-------------------8.33
5-------------------11.11
6-------------------13.88
7-------------------16.66
8-------------------13.88
9-------------------11.11
10-----------------8.33
11-----------------5.55
12-----------------2.77

Even counting the Scatter Die's 1/3 chance of rolling a "hit", you still end up with a 56-ish% percent chance to scatter.

Chris, this idea is fine, but it still promotes Mech, not demotes them. Make the chart more brutal, and I might get behind the idea.

Which is fully acceptable with the idea that BS3 combined with the chance of rolling a 'hit' on the scatter die has a roughly 1/4 chance of landing directly on target, and reducing the scatter by even an inch or 2 can be a a major difference.

I personally find this list much more brutal on me already, adn I run mech Guard about half the time. It has the chance that my reansports will take their cargo with them, which already makes me worry a lot more about taking a pure mech force. I have to deal with the fact that even the lightest glancing hit may silence my big guns for a turn, and several other factors. You want more brutal, tell me what you want more brutal? How would you make it? To me, it seems like it's more than fine.

ChrisWWII wrote:Which is fully acceptable with the idea that BS3 combined with the chance of rolling a 'hit' on the scatter die has a roughly 1/4 chance of landing directly on target, and reducing the scatter by even an inch or 2 can be a a major difference.

I personally find this list much more brutal on me already, adn I run mech Guard about half the time. It has the chance that my reansports will take their cargo with them, which already makes me worry a lot more about taking a pure mech force. I have to deal with the fact that even the lightest glancing hit may silence my big guns for a turn, and several other factors. You want more brutal, tell me what you want more brutal? How would you make it? To me, it seems like it's more than fine.

The vehicle movement one is sketchy - I wasn't gonna move my Leman Russ/Artillery anyway, it's got two table lengths of range.

If I had to make a table like this....I'm actually somewhat OK with most of it. Annihilated is wacky and complicated. Just make the explosion more brutal (Maybe S6 AP -, so it wounds almost everything on 2+). It's also funny that you swapped "Shaken and Stunned" from the standard rulebook (effects 3 and 4), but it's whatever. Not really an issue.

My modified table (based on yours) -

2- Gunner Stunned: One weapon (chosen by the firer) may not fire in the vehicle's next shooting phase. (modified slightly to show the shooter picks what gun doesn't fire)
3- Crew Shaken: No weapons may be fired in the vehicles next shooting phase. (Changed from effect 4)
4- Crew Stunned: The vehicle can neither move nor shoot in its next turn. (Changed from effect 5)

5- Targeting Systems Destroyed: The vehicles targeting systems are wrecked, and the vehicle must fire with -2 BS to all weapons for the rest of the game. Note: BS can not be reduced to less than 1. For Blast weapons, the blast always scatters. (Changed to hurt blast weapons more, and moved to 5).
6- Crew Members Injured: The vehicle must declare what level of movement it is moving at (Combat, Cruising, Flat out), and roll 1D6 per level. This indicates it's maximum speed. It always moves at the declared speed, regardless of how far it moves. It may choose to remain stationary. Further, one less weapon than normal can be fired for the rest of the game (chosen by the vehicle's owner each time it shoots). (New rule)
7- Weapon Destroyed: A weapon chosen by the firer is destroyed, and can no longer fire in this game. (Changed to clearly show shooter picks the gun)
8- Immobilized: The vehicles tracks are destroyed, and the vehicle can no longer move.

9- Vehicle Destroyed: The vehicle is knocked out, and can no longer move or fire weapons. It counts as difficult and dangerous terrain. (Remained the Same)
10- Vehicle On Fire: The vehicle is destroyed as explained above, but now counts as impassable terrain. Additionally, each turn roll a d6, on a 1-4 nothing happens, on a 5-6 the vehicle explodes as described in the 'vehicle explodes' result. (Changed to be a D6 and took out "Annihilated")
11- Vehicle Explodes: The vehicle explodes, and all models withing d6 inches take a S3 AP- hit. All models within the vehicles take a S4, AP- hit. Remove the Model.(Remained the Same, but made sure to take the model off the table, like in the rules)
12- Vehicle Annhilated: The vehicle is completely and utterly destroyed in a violent explosion. All models 1d6 inches away from its hull take a S5 AP- hit, and models being transported by the vehicle are destroyed. Remove the model. (Removed the displacement and changed the damage. Also removed the part about a possible second explosion for the vehicle.)

Vehicle Damage Table Modifiers:
Open-Topped: +1
AP -: -1
AP 1: +2
Glancing Hit: -2

AP 1 should bring it higher up the scale, I feel, and the rest are the same.

This is my counter-offer. I generally made it more damaging and grouped 5 in the with rest (permanent vehicle damage).

I find Crew members injured to be interesting, and may find a way to work that into the chart. However, as for the movement, remember that not all vehicles your shooting at are Lemans our Basilisks. A much more common opponent would be Wave Serpents, Chimeras, Rhinos, etc. etc. All of those vehicles would suffer immensely from not only being able to move a mere d6 inches, and may suffer more by being forced to drive in a straight line (getting carried into difficult terrain, driving past cover, etc.) Your rules hurt Bassies and Lemans more yes, but I'm more worried about the Chimeras and Vendettas than the Basilisks and Lemans.

Also, bear in mind, that I am not making this to be the new permanent rules in 6th edition. In all honestly, the multiple explosions was an oversight, and I'll be adding an ammendment. However, I am making it with the assumption that people will not try and rules lawyer. In 40k it's always the damage causer who picks which weapon is destroyed, and I assumed most people woulf follow that same streth of logic without it having to be spelled out to them.

The only one I really disagree with is the -2BS result. It's frankly almost as good as a "triple" weapon destroyed result, since it makes all the weapons permanently worse (to the point that they might as well be destroyed).

What I would recommend is either -1BS to all weapons (for each result, min BS1), OR -2BS any time the vehicle wishes to fire more than one weapon; further results would contribute to Weapon Destroyed.

EDIT: Or a combination: -1BS to all weapons, and -2BS (non-stacking) when firing more than one. Extra results contribute to Weapon Destroyed.

That way it's not quite as good as Weapon Destroyed, but still much more permanently harmful than any stunned result. As it stands now, I'd much rather get that result than a Weapon Destroyed.

Perhaps I could combine that rule with Red Army's 'Crew Injured' rule? -1 BS + Can Fire One Less Weapon than normal?

Ok. I'm seeing a lot of "straight" tables, where things go from nothing to a brew-up. Essentially, its the normal table doubled in size.

To everybody who has such a table, have you not taken statistics? Do you not know what a bell curve is?

Damage tables should not be sequential. They should factor in that 6,7, and 8 are the statistical most likely outcomes.

Which is why the 'vehicle damaged' results are in the middle, and the vehicle destroyed and vehicle inconvenienced results are on the opposite ends of the curve. You can make a chart sequential while still taking into account the fact that you get a bell curve with 2d6.

OK well after a pretty hefty armor on armor test game we found the chart actually prettyfun, and with alot more uncertainty.
with the following forces tossed against each other,
Imperial Guard.
3 Leman Russ Vanquishers
2 Leman Russ Demolishers
4 Leman Russ standard Config.
2 Leman Russ Executioners
4 Chimera's with a mech inf platoon ( 1 hq, 2 squads, 1 hev weapon squad (lascannon)
1 Basilisk

Tau Empire.
6 Hammerheads Railgun config.
1 Hammerhead Ion cannon
2 Devilfish w/ 10 firewarriors
1 Devilfish w/ 8 pathfinders

We really did not go point for point just went with what was available.
Battle field was 6X8ft with medium sparse terrain.

And it was a blast
the end result was
Imperial Guard.
3 Leman Russ Vanquishers ( all 3 destroyed 2 with explosions, and 1 burned for 4 turns )
2 Leman Russ Demolishers ( 1 imobilized and targeting destroyed with its lascannon gone, the other survived )
4 Leman Russ standard Config. ( 2 survived with weapons destroyed 2 blown up and burning )
2 Leman Russ Executioners ( 1 unscathed, and one immobilized )
4 Chimera's with a mech inf platoon ( 1 hq, 2 squads, 1 hev weapon squad (lascannon) ( 4 chimera's destroyed, 2 with all hands lost the HQ, and heavy weapon )
1 Basilisk ( did well until its weapon was destroyed, and then it was sad )

Tau Empire.
6 Hammerheads Railgun config. ( 3 destroyed, with 2 burning, 1 weapon destroyed , and 2 survived intact , one of those accounted for 4 kills by itself )
1 Hammerhead Ion cannon (killed by a lucky side hit by a Executioner )
2 Devilfish w/ 10 firewarriors ( 1 blown up with everyone inside, the other survived with 8 firewarriors )
1 Devilfish w/ 8 pathfinders ( Devilfish imobilized, and 4 pathfinders survived )

We really had a good time with the new table, and had alot of ups and downs throughout, we will likely fight this one again this weekend with the standard rules.

The only changes we did from ChrisWWII's chart was the -4 for glance, it seemed to play out pretty evenly, and we had plenty of nasty AT on the battlefield.

Well at any rate thats our first test IG: 6 survivors out of 16
Tau: 5 survivors out of 10

Morale victory Tau....ouch

I like but would like to add in some modifiers

-2 AP -
-1 AP 5 or 6
0 AP 3 or 4
+1 AP2
+2 AP1

So hit me all you want with your scatterlasers and heavy bolters but give a little bonus to lascannons on effect.