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I personally think a 2d6 damage table would be a bit more useful for the damage table on vehicles...this is my proposal for what the table should be. This is a random idea, and is completely open to editting.

2- Gunner Stunned: One weapon (chosen by the opponent) may not fire in the vehicle's next shooting phase.
3- Driver Stunned: The vehicle may only move d6 inches in a straight line, regardless of what its usual movement speed is.
4- Crew Stunned: No weapons may be fired in the vehicles next shooting phase.
5- Crew Shaken: The vehicle can neither move nor shoot in its next turn.

6- Targeting Systems Destroyed: The vehicles targeting systems are wrecked, and the vehicle must fire with -2 BS to all weapons for the rest of the game. Note: BS can not be reduced to less than 1.
7- Weapon Destroyed: A weapon chosen by the enemy is destroyed, and can no longer fire in this game.
8- Immobilized: The vehicles tracks are destroyed, and the vehicle can no longer move.

9- Vehicle Destroyed: The vehicle is knocked out, and can no longer move or fire weapons. It counts as difficult and dangerous terrain.
10- Vehicle On Fire: The vehicle is destroyed as explained above, but now counts as impassable terrain. Additionally, each turn roll a d6, on a 1 nothing happens, on a 5 the vehicle explodes as described in the 'vehicle explodes' result. On a 6, the vehicle explodes as described in the 'vehicle annhilated' result.
11- Vehicle Explodes: The vehicle explodes, and all models withing d6 inches take a S3 AP- hit. All models within the vehicles take a S4, AP- hit.
12- Vehicle Annhilated: The vehicle is completely and utterly destroyed in a violent explosion. The model is displaced 1d6 inches in a direction determined by the scatter dice, and any and all models 1d6 inches away from its hull when it lands take a S4 AP6 hit, and models being transported by the vehicle are destroyed. . After resolving that, roll a d6, on a 1 or 2, the vehicle remains as per 'vehicle destroyed.' If it is a 3 or 4, the vehicle remains as per 'vehicle on fire' (Note: Do not roll the d6 each turn. The vehicle can not explode again!) , on a 5 or 6, the model is removed.

Any rolls on the damage table that are lowered to '1' by modifies count as rolling a 2 on the damage table. Any rolls that are raised above 12 count as 12. If you score a glancing hit, and roll a 9, 10, 11 or 12, you must choose another result instead. AP1 and AP - add and subtract from the table as normal.

Now this I can agree on
As is the current damage table makes it entirely unpredictable, there just a likely a chance that you stun it as to destroy it, and if all the shots you fire at it glance you might as well have not fired at all.

Although I personally think Vehicle Annihilated needs to be a little more spectacular.

This sounds quite sane, will the modifiers stay the same for this table as the 1d6 table? (eg: does a glancing hit -2 from a result or will it be more?)

This is something we have been discussing in our gaming group, and am happy to contribute to the brain storming.
so working off your base ..here..we..go!


2- Gunner Stunned: One weapon system (chosen by the opponent) must fire at a -2 BS in the vehicle's next shooting phase.
(edit: one weapon chosen by opponent may not fire in vehicle's next shooting phase) since some armies such as orks cannot really have a -2 to bs or just be reduced to hitting on a 6, so for across the board fairness, just may not shoot. )
3- Driver Stunned: The vehicle may only move d6 inches in a straight line, regardless of what its usual movement speed is.
4- Crew Stunned: No weapons may be fired in the vehicles next shooting phase.
5- Crew Shaken: The vehicle can neither move nor shoot in its next turn.

6- Targeting Systems Destroyed: The vehicles targeting systems are wrecked, and the vehicle must fire with -2 BS to all weapons for the rest of the game. (Note, this stacks with 'Gunner Stunned')
Edit: ( weapon destroyed owner's choice due to the above edit and also why should always your best weapon get destroyed on a random chart. )
7- Weapon Destroyed: A weapon chosen by the enemy is destroyed, and can no longer fire in this game.
8- Immobilized: The vehicles tracks are destroyed, and the vehicle can no longer move.

9- Vehicle Destroyed: The vehicle is knocked out, and can no longer move or fire weapons. It counts as difficult and dangerous terrain.
10- Vehicle On Fire: The vehicle is destroyed as explained above, but now counts as impassable terrain. Additionally, each turn roll a d3, on a 1 nothing happens, on a 2 the vehicle explodes as described in the 'vehicle explodes' result. On a 3, the vehicle explodes as described in the 'vehicle annhilated' result.
11- Vehicle Explodes: The vehicle explodes, and all models withing d6 inches take a S3 AP- hit. All models within the vehicle take a S4 AP- hit.
12- Vehicle Annhilated: The vehicle is completely and utterly destroyed in a violent explosion. All models with d6 inches that a S4 AP6 hit, and any models being carried inside are killed.
Edit: (roll scatter dice and 1d6 place wreck at result, All models within d6 inches are struck with a S4 AP6 hit, and any models carried inside are killed, further roll a d6 on a 1-3 treat as vehicle on fire (as above result 10 ) on a 4-6 remove model and replace with crater or other difficult terrain if available. )

Now that was fun, great idea ChrisWWII

next we need some modifiers for the table, such as for glancing , terrain, and such.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

Although I personally think Vehicle Annihilated needs to be a little more spectacular.

+1

Soo'Vah'Cha

I agree with you on the 'Gunner Crew Stunned' result, one weapon will not be able to fire, and I'll edit the OP to represent that. However, on Targetting Systems Destroyed, I think I'll keep it an a -2 BS for Targetting System Destroyed...that's what it represents, I think. Sights being destroyed, sensors being jammed, etc. etc. It'd be a way to reduce the effectiveness of a vehicle significantly without causing it to permanantly lose function.

Alhough, I see your point about not being applicable to Orks as well....hmm, perhaps change it so that only one weapon could be fired per turn instead?

I DEFINITELY like your ideas for vehicle annhilated, and I think I shall put that change in the OP.

I would not wnat vehicles to be destroyable with glancing hits, so I'd consider changing it to say this:

If you roll a glancing hit, and roll a 9, 10, 11 or 12 on the vehicle damage table, instead of the vehicle being destroyed, you may instead choose any one of the other status effects to apply to the enemy vehicle.

The modifiers (glance and ap1 and such) should stay the same, so glancing can still do some damage and melta isn't king of the special weapons

Just put a Cavet that no to hit roll can ever be reduced to worse than a 6+ ( since the only army that it would really effect is Orks and their targeting systems are not exactly high tech ...welded on sights and such ) but for everyone else its pretty nasty, you could also put in a proviso that such rules as "power of the machine spirit " are displaced by this result, so you can knock out the AI

I like the idea of 2d6 although I think the damage mods and individual results should be different

maybe -4 for glancing
-2 for AP-
+2 for open topped and AP1

When the targeter is destroyed dont modify the BS. Instead make the vehicle reroll to hit. Twinlinked weapons lose their reroll and fire as normal. Stacks. So after 2 you need to reroll twice.

Holy crap Hive Mind!!
I had this exact same discussion with a friend discussing using a 2d6 results table instead of 1d6

Although it messes up linear modifiers, I'd say the weakest outcome should be at '7' and the most devastating ought to be at '2' and '12' since that's in line with its probability.

Jack

Wouldn't making the table in that fashion make vehicles more survivable? And that glances on the table would be more beneficial?

Footsloggin wrote:Wouldn't making the table in that fashion make vehicles more survivable? And that glances on the table would be more beneficial?

Well, in the current system you have a 1 in 3 chance of destroying the vehicle for a penetrating hit. With this 2d6 table you have an 4 in 11 chance of doing the same thing, which means they're slightly easier to destroy. Not to mention, vehicle annhilated means no more 'Squad of Tactical Marines coming out of the Rhino you just blew up'. It actually makes mech a lot less desirable, and allows the damage table to be a little broader. With only 6 results, you'd have a hard time squeezing in all kinds of little damage that is rather fun to have.

I've edited the original post...instead of the standard -2, glances that roll a 9, 10, 11, or 12 on the damage table do not count the vehicle as destroyed, but instead allow the owner to choose any OTHER damage result to apply to the vehicle.

I'm not talking about yours Chris! I like yours, I was refering to was Jackmojo's post above.

Ah ok then. Sorry, misinterpretation there...I have the same opinion as you regarding Jackmojo's idea. It's partially why mine is arranged it is. Roll 2d6, the most likely result is a 6, 7, or 8, which is why those numbers are in the middle for me in terms of damage. Doing barely anything, or completely annhilating the vehicle SHOULD be at the extreme ends.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:Wouldn't making the table in that fashion make vehicles more survivable? And that glances on the table would be more beneficial?

Well, in the current system you have a 1 in 3 chance of destroying the vehicle for a penetrating hit. With this 2d6 table you have an 4 in 11 chance of doing the same thing, which means they're slightly easier to destroy.

Chris, your math is off. Just because 4 of your 11 results are "destroyed" does not mean you have a 4 in 11 probability of rolling it. I refer you to the following chart.



As you can see, I have a 27.76 percent chance of blowing up a vehicle every turn. Far less than 1 in 3 (33%) and even more less than your system. This introduces more randomness into vehicle damage, actually, which only HELPS mech in the long run (particularly if you rely heavily on transports).

It's a novel idea, but I think the glancing hits table making a return actually does far more justice to help tone down mech armies. My suggestion -

Glancing Hits
1 - Shaken
2 - Shaken
3 - Stunned
4 - Weapon Destroyed
5 - Immobilized
6 - Vehicle Wrecked

Penetrating Hits
1 - Stunned
2 - Weapon Destroyed
3 - Immobilized
4 - Vehicle Wrecked
5 - Vehicle Explodes!
6 - Vehicle Explodes!

You can modify it to fit in your new ideas. I think this is a far more useful way to help nerf Mech a bit.

TheRedArmy wrote:
Chris, your math is off. Just because 4 of your 11 results are "destroyed" does not mean you have a 4 in 11 probability of rolling it. I refer you to the following chart.

This does not bodewell for my stats test on Tuesday, yes you're right. I forgot that 2d6 isn't linear, and I even made the point later on that the 2d6 table with minor and extreme results on both ends makes more sense than a purely random table.

I don't want to bring back the old tables for the fact that it makes vehicles too vulnerable to fire. Making vehicles and transports more of a gamble, without nerfing them completely is what i'm trying to accomplish. The point still stands that you're more likely to roll a 6, 7 or 8, and thus inflict damage on the enemy vehicle than any other result.

well we will test out your 2d6 chart today, we have been planning a all armor clash between IG and Tau so it should make a good testbed, and a final addition as the above poster suggested.

Opentopped : +2
Glance : -4
AP 1 : +2

just to keep the overall results to what is currently possible...again this will be a test.

Oh sweet! Tell me how it turns out...I'm curious as to how it's going to work.

I love this idea a lot, and I attempted to get me and my friends to adopt a chart like this a long time ago, but it was very unpopular due to many "useless" scores on vehicles, along with trying to keep track of the many different things that can happen.

The -2 Bs is awful, get rid of it. I have never seen a rule like it [apart from maybe fantasy], this is for a reason. Even a result that blew off a couple points of armour would be preferable. The rest is alright you just need to neaten up the modifiers is a bit confused.

Perkustin wrote:The -2 Bs is awful, get rid of it. I have never seen a rule like it [apart from maybe fantasy], this is for a reason. Even a result that blew off a couple points of armour would be preferable. The rest is alright you just need to neaten up the modifiers is a bit confused.

-2 BS?

I've looked through here and I see nothing about BS2.

Could you use quotes to show me what you're talking about?

Perkustin wrote:The -2 Bs is awful, get rid of it. I have never seen a rule like it [apart from maybe fantasy], this is for a reason. Even a result that blew off a couple points of armour would be preferable. The rest is alright you just need to neaten up the modifiers is a bit confused.

Why is it horrible? If you explain it, and your argument is convincing, I'm more than willing to change it, but why is it so horrible?

ChrisWWII wrote:

Perkustin wrote:The -2 Bs is awful, get rid of it. I have never seen a rule like it [apart from maybe fantasy], this is for a reason. Even a result that blew off a couple points of armour would be preferable. The rest is alright you just need to neaten up the modifiers is a bit confused.

Why is it horrible? If you explain it, and your argument is convincing, I'm more than willing to change it, but why is it so horrible?

I'd agree (although tone down the language a bit). The problem is that BS doesn't matter nearly as much to blast weapons. So, this would adversely effect some armies more than others. Perhaps make some sort of "target lock" problem that prevents the vehicle from firing for the turn on a 4+.


I'd also strongly vote against -4 for a glance.

Currently, a glance has a 16.7% chance to destroy a weapon and a 16.7% chance to immobilize.
With this chart and a -4, you have a 5.6% chance to destroy a weapon and a 2.8% chance to immobilize. You also have a whopping 27.8% chance to only prevent a single weapon from firing.

I think it's a popular misconception that BS doesn't matter alot to blast weapons. It matters a whole lot. One inch to the left or right can be the difference between a direct hit, and just showering the enemy with useless shrapnel. It's not as obvious, this is true, but look at it this way.

With no BS reduction, you have a 1/3 chance of scoring a direct hit. With BS3, you have a 1/4 chance that even if you scatter, you will scatter 0 inches, leading to grand total of a 5/12 chance of not scattering at all. Reducing that BS3 to BS1 changes that chance of not scattering to only 1/3.

As for glancing, my determination for glancing is that there is no minus to the damage roll, instead if you roll a destroyed result with a glancing hit you get to choose which other result to inflict on your opponent. AP1 and AP- will work as a + or -2, as that's about what it takes to move from one category to another.

I dig the 2d6 glancing chart, and it's been suggested so often, I would be surprised to not see it in 6th edition.

@ChrisWWII, I've been meaning to ask you: Where the heck did you get a Carameldansen space marine-ette avatar?

Edit: Nevermind, I found it. Once again, the internets make me go "Man, what?"

Lonecoon wrote:I dig the 2d6 glancing chart, and it's been suggested so often, I would be surprised to not see it in 6th edition.

I certainly hope so. And, I look forward to throwing Holo-fields on everything to make an indestructible army!

(At least, until they errata it, but as a non-SM army, errata is few and far between)

Good job!
It looks realy good. Now let me propose this into my clubs league i'm sure this will recieve some great feedback .

i actually quite like it. Adds a bit more of an unpreditcable feel to vehciel damage.

ChrisWWII wrote:I think it's a popular misconception that BS doesn't matter alot to blast weapons. It matters a whole lot. One inch to the left or right can be the difference between a direct hit, and just showering the enemy with useless shrapnel. It's not as obvious, this is true, but look at it this way.

With no BS reduction, you have a 1/3 chance of scoring a direct hit. With BS3, you have a 1/4 chance that even if you scatter, you will scatter 0 inches, leading to grand total of a 5/12 chance of not scattering at all. Reducing that BS3 to BS1 changes that chance of not scattering to only 1/3.

Actualy it is only Ordnance weapons tha are effected. if it just says blast you do not have to roll the scatter die. Only when it says Ordnance must you.