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GamzaTheChaos wrote:I have a strong feeling pariahs are actually going to be elite/good as they suck right now. 36 points for a model that gets 1 attack? -.-

Pariahs will still suck if they lost the current warscythes. I'm sorry, I love Pariahs for their blades and MEQ stats. Their points suck and they lack the Necron rule, which is daft. Trying to redeem that while changing the warscythes to this "power weapon with instant death" stuff will not make them better. You can kill MC's and multi-wound characters, so what? I want to slice up terminators like thermite through steel. It really will shake up the game if warscythes were used more often in thier current status...

I've pretty much have resigned myself to Necrons being horrible no matter what. I've set my expectations so low that I can never be dissapointed!

I don't understand why they'd change the current Warscythe as it is. Yes it ignores invul. saves but there's two units in our codex that can use them, and one of them is terrible. If they make Pariah abit more field-able then I'll be super happy, and maybe add 2 or 3 units more. I'm hoping against a hit to the 'Lith as it is currently what makes Necrons playable and without it we have nothing. For the most part they just need to add a few units and make the Guass weaponry treat vehicles as open-topped and I really don't think that they would to terrible. Despite the fact that Necrons are horribly old, it is only a few things that keep them from being a good army.

Just bloody scrap Phase Out. Almost as spectacularly stupid as Daemonic Assault.

Cerebrium wrote:Just bloody scrap Phase Out. Almost as spectacularly stupid as Daemonic Assault.

So long as they nerf the monolith. Without phase out, monoliths as they are would be incredibly overpowered.

My suggestions:

- Fearless and Relentless army-wide.
- WS3 standard [except Lords (5), Pariahs (4), Flayed Ones (4) and Wraiths (4)].
- Toughness 5 standard [bar Scarabs].
- Warscythes stay.
- C'Tan go to Apocalypse.
- A Pylon (immobile artillery, less potent than an Apoc version) and Tomb Stalker in codex.
- WBB = 5+ FNP, if failed the model goes down and the traditional 4+ WBB takes effect.
- Resurrection Orb = Remains the same.
- Gauss Weapon are AP1 against both vehicles and infantry on the roll of a 6.

Units:

- A Platinum-level Lord as a unique HQ choice = T6, 5 wounds, Eternal Warrior, Preferred Enemy against everything
- Pariahs = 2 wounds, 3+ armour, 5+ inv, 3+FNP, 2 attacks, warscythe (no WBB and not Necron)
- Wraiths = Squad 3-6, Power Weapons
- Scarab Swarms = Self-destruct when a base is destroyed (S3 Lightning field in CC)
- Flayed Ones = Slow and Purposeful, Fleet, Rending, may assault after deep strike.
- Heavy Destroyers = Squad 1-5, Twin-Linked Lascannon and Twin-Linked Multi-Melta (may use one of the options per turn, like Chaos Obliterators)
- Monolith = Receives a 4+ inv save and has S5 Lightning Fields in CC. S5 explosion, ignoring cover saves when destroyed. May fire all weapons (Flux Arcs, Particle Whip) each turn.

Phase Out:

- When a HQ dies every unit with a leadership value takes a morale check. If failed, by how many points you failed by that many models phase out in that unit; or a D3 after a failed morale check.
- Phase Out happens when ALL Necron models are killed.

I may have missed a few things, but what do you guys think?

IronChaos wrote:I would be sad if they loose WBB. It really defines Necrons; I would like it to be "better" somehow to FNP, because when it was designed, there weren't so many FNP units as now (even those fragile Dark Eldar can get it). It should be something like... a combination of both: you can save wounds as FNP AND autorepair as classic WBB (in the background, Necrons are described as very resilient, because they can regen normal wounds which didn't "kill" them, without even falling to the floor).

This may sound complex and even overpowered, but Necrons always have been defined by resilience and autorrepairing. If they loose that, they'll loose part of their spirit...

So...you want them to be T4, 3+ save, with a 4+ FnP, that if they fail they get ANOTHER 4+ to get back up at the start of the turn followed by ANOTHER attempt should the squad get sucked through a Monolith (presuming the 'Lith remains unchanged)? If so, the odds of killing a Necron warrior with any gun bar S8-10 AP1-2 just dropped to....0.33 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.04%. Yeah. I see that happening....

Straight swap. WBB ---> FnP. Easy to understand, does exactly the same thing, and still not to be sniffed at on a T4 3+ model.

L. Wrex

Juvieus Kaine wrote:

GamzaTheChaos wrote:I have a strong feeling pariahs are actually going to be elite/good as they suck right now. 36 points for a model that gets 1 attack? -.-

Pariahs will still suck if they lost the current warscythes. I'm sorry, I love Pariahs for their blades and MEQ stats. Their points suck and they lack the Necron rule, which is daft. Trying to redeem that while changing the warscythes to this "power weapon with instant death" stuff will not make them better. You can kill MC's and multi-wound characters, so what? I want to slice up terminators like thermite through steel. It really will shake up the game if warscythes were used more often in thier current status...

well no matter what the war scythe does they will be good if they drop their points to about 20-25 each give them 2-3 attacks
and have some good abilities against psychics plus they have a built in gauss blaster. striking at strength 5 with toughness 5. =)

Kurgash wrote:

Lonecoon wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I would personally suggest the discussion moves away from WBB/FNP due to the back and forth nature of it and how such a discussion has never really got anywhere. Seriously, I'd advise focussing on other aspects such as...

- Whether they really will still ignore invulnerable saves
- Whether they'll get another troop choice.
- Living Metal = 4+ invulnerable?
etc.

I think a 5+ invul would be much more fair.

So thus we become vulnerable to melta, lance, monstrous creatures and the like all for a measly 5+? I'm sorry but that is freaking stupid and you should be ashamed of even considering that. I mean hey, why not just give it armor 10 while we're at it, make it completely useless with an opened top cherry.

I meant the Invul should be 5+, not the armor save. So their stat line would be WS 3 BS 4 S 4 T 4 W 1 I 3 AR 3+/5+ FNP

Also: I was talking about the troops and not the Monolith. I thought living metal applied to the Warriors.

I want them to be less rigged in the lore/history of the 40k universe I want them to be toned down a bit more.

Note that just switching out WBB for FnP isnt that bad of a prospect. While FnP is widespread, Necrons will be the first true army that actually has it as a standard piece of equipment, rather than have to either leap through hoops for one, or purchase a character specifically for it. Plague Marines get it, but they're not a true army in of themselves (their only HQ with FnP is Typhus, but Typhus apparently sucks).

Used right, Typhus can rock, but he's no Mephiston

samrtk wrote:My suggestions:

- Fearless and Relentless army-wide.
- WS3 standard [except Lords (5), Pariahs (4), Flayed Ones (4) and Wraiths (4)].
- Toughness 5 standard [bar Scarabs].
- Warscythes stay.
- C'Tan go to Apocalypse.
- A Pylon (immobile artillery, less potent than an Apoc version) and Tomb Stalker in codex.
- WBB = 5+ FNP, if failed the model goes down and the traditional 4+ WBB takes effect.
- Resurrection Orb = Remains the same.
- Gauss Weapon are AP1 against both vehicles and infantry on the roll of a 6.

Units:

- A Platinum-level Lord as a unique HQ choice = T6, 5 wounds, Eternal Warrior, Preferred Enemy against everything
- Pariahs = 2 wounds, 3+ armour, 5+ inv, 3+FNP, 2 attacks, warscythe (no WBB and not Necron)
- Wraiths = Squad 3-6, Power Weapons
- Scarab Swarms = Self-destruct when a base is destroyed (S3 Lightning field in CC)
- Flayed Ones = Slow and Purposeful, Fleet, Rending, may assault after deep strike.
- Heavy Destroyers = Squad 1-5, Twin-Linked Lascannon and Twin-Linked Multi-Melta (may use one of the options per turn, like Chaos Obliterators)
- Monolith = Receives a 4+ inv save and has S5 Lightning Fields in CC. S5 explosion, ignoring cover saves when destroyed. May fire all weapons (Flux Arcs, Particle Whip) each turn.

Phase Out:

- When a HQ dies every unit with a leadership value takes a morale check. If failed, by how many points you failed by that many models phase out in that unit; or a D3 after a failed morale check.
- Phase Out happens when ALL Necron models are killed.

I may have missed a few things, but what do you guys think?

No

I would like to see the following changes for WBB:

Necrons get the FNP USR. This is to represent their self repair abilities. Any models not eligible for a FNP roll are removed. If a model fails a FNP roll, then it is layed down with the surviving members of the unit.

If a res orb is in range, then FNP is allowed under all circumstances.

If a necron model was eligible for FNP and at least one model in the unit is still up, then the unit may be teleported through a monolith for a WBB roll. Any models that fail the WBB are removed.

If all models in the unit are gone, then they are removed. The only exception to this is lords. If a lord was with a unit (or alone) and the models in the unit (including the lord) are casualties and were eligible for a FNP roll, remove the unit but leave the lord for a WBB chance if teleported through a monolith. If the lord makes the WBB roll, then it is placed back on it's feet with 1 wound.

Keeps some fluff. Hopefully removes some issues with the current WBB rules and helps the necrons with some CC issues with an immediate FNP roll.

On a side note, I would like to see necron warriors ld8 with stubborn, other models with ld9 sutbborn and lords ld10 with stubborn.

Thoughts?

Here's what I would like to see:

Remove the old WBB altogether, give Necron Lords FNP.

Replace WBB with this:

We'll Be Back
At the beginning of each Necron turn, any units with the Necron special rule that have taken suffered wounds may take a leadership test. If they pass this test, roll a D6. The unit recovers an amount of wounds equal to the number rolled, up to the maximum size of the unit. If the unit contains models with multiple wounds, do not replace models until every model in the unit is at their maximum wounds characteristic.

Ressurection Orb
A unit within 6" of a model with a resurrection orb automatically passes their leadership test for WBB, and may reroll the dice to see how many wounds they recover (if a player chooses to reroll the result, they must always use the result of the reroll, even if it is worse). Necron Lords with a Ressurection Orb may use their FNP save even if they've been wounded by a power weapon or ranged weapon with AP1 or 2 (weapons with a strength value twice the Lord's toughness will still go through the Lord's FNP save).


Do that, reduce the Phase Out threshold to 10%, and you're already on your way to a good codex.

I'd like to see Warscythes get toned down, imho invulnerable saves should stay invulnerable.

Fafnir wrote:Here's what I would like to see:

Remove the old WBB altogether, give Necron Lords FNP.

Replace WBB with this:

We'll Be Back
At the beginning of each Necron turn, any units with the Necron special rule that have taken suffered wounds may take a leadership test. If they pass this test, roll a D6. The unit recovers an amount of wounds equal to the number rolled, up to the maximum size of the unit. If the unit contains models with multiple wounds, do not replace models until every model in the unit is at their maximum wounds characteristic.

Ressurection Orb
A unit within 6" of a model with a resurrection orb automatically passes their leadership test for WBB, and may reroll the dice to see how many wounds they recover (if a player chooses to reroll the result, they must always use the result of the reroll, even if it is worse). Necron Lords with a Ressurection Orb may use their FNP save even if they've been wounded by a power weapon or ranged weapon with AP1 or 2 (weapons with a strength value twice the Lord's toughness will still go through the Lord's FNP save).


Do that, reduce the Phase Out threshold to 10%, and you're already on your way to a good codex.

How does this save necrons from the new CC resolution?

It doesn't. I said it's a start.

Besides, if Necrons would be able to recover in such a way, they'd need to crumble somewhere.

One solution would be to make some dedicated Necron close combat units.

Something has to oppose the redonculous 2+3++ insanity.

Right now only Warscythes and Ctan have a hope against it in the current Necron List. If they up-powered the dex as a whole and gave some AP 2 weaponry out like every other race has by the handful (except Nids, but then they got shafted by cruddace....) then warscythes would be less necessary.

The way I see Necrons, they should be slow, tough armies that focus on attrition to win battles for them. If I were in charge of designing them, I would intend to make them weak against focused decisive strikes, but capable of easily overwhelming most foes in drawn out fights (by just not dying, obviously). The goal (and where skill would be required on the part of the Necron player) would be sustaining themselves long enough to weaken the enemy and prevent crippling blows from happening.

I’m seeing a lot of broken suggestions in this thread, mostly due to people trying to combine legacy Necron rules with 5th editions USRs and mechanics. Double re-roll mechanics in general are not good rules design.

I would definitely predict that the new codex would probably have new mechanics/rules via an altered interpretation of the fluff. Starting off on a clean slate would be the best thing for a Necron codex and Necron fans in my opinion. Unwieldy mechanics tend to become more unwieldy as editions progress. I would personally like to see a tidy, flexible ruleset that doesn’t ignore or work around 5th edition mechanics (it would be scary if Matt Ward just gave WBB a major buff and made it as exploitable as sanguinary priests).

Based on the earlier rumour thread, the new dex will probably be something like:

• WBB replaced with FNP
• Res orb always allowing FNP
• Phase out removed and Monoliths adjusted to compensate.
• C Tans removed and new special characters added to compensate.
• More heavy support choices
• Elite units adjusted to be more “elite”
• Warscythes adjusted.
• Gauss weaponry adjusted to use a rending type mechanic (may not be true blue rending directly out of the BRB but following a similar mechanic)
• Some form of ability to alter the FOC like the other 5th edition codices.

candy.man wrote:• Some form of ability to alter the FOC like the other 5th edition codices.

Do you mean like "If you take Papa Smurf as an HQ then Smurf squads may be taken as Troops choices." sort of things?

As bad as they are, they don't need to go anywhere but up.

They are easily the worst army in the game, and should be swept off the field by any 5th ED army. I'd say they should get wiped out by anyone outside of the Tau, and even then I'd favor the Tau.

candy.man wrote:I’m seeing a lot of broken suggestions in this thread, mostly due to people trying to combine legacy Necron rules with 5th editions USRs and mechanics. Double re-roll mechanics in general are not good rules design.

I would definitely predict that the new codex would probably have new mechanics/rules via an altered interpretation of the fluff. Starting off on a clean slate would be the best thing for a Necron codex and Necron fans in my opinion. Unwieldy mechanics tend to become more unwieldy as editions progress. I would personally like to see a tidy, flexible ruleset that doesn’t ignore or work around 5th edition mechanics (it would be scary if Matt Ward just gave WBB a major buff and made it as exploitable as sanguinary priests).

Based on the earlier rumour thread, the new dex will probably be something like:

• WBB replaced with FNP
• Res orb always allowing FNP
• Phase out removed and Monoliths adjusted to compensate.
• C Tans removed and new special characters added to compensate.
• More heavy support choices
• Elite units adjusted to be more “elite”
• Warscythes adjusted.
• Gauss weaponry adjusted to use a rending type mechanic (may not be true blue rending directly out of the BRB but following a similar mechanic)
• Some form of ability to alter the FOC like the other 5th edition codices.

Now this I like. Gauss Weapons should be Rending with a +D6 rather than a +D3, meaning that their basic weapons has an actual chance at penetrating vehicle armor. it would be a hard counter against the meta, perhaps finally shifting focus away from MEQs and Mech Armies in general. C'tan should be removed and replaced with a Greater Daemon-type summonable unit. The Monolith should preserve it's Living Metal Rule, so to keep it away from being "just another Land Raider", but have it altered to be like Holofields or something.

@Nightbringer's Chosen
Yeah. I’m guessing something like Immortals or Pariahs would become troops.

Just throwing this out there... What if they had Feel No Pain AND We'll Be Back, but kept Phase Out?

It all comes down to three questions about dice rolls:
a) What type b) How many? c) When?

We can have 3 types of saves:

1. FNP - Easiest to implement. Significantly decreases the staying power of the Necrons due to Power weapons, AP 2, etc. Res orb negating the restrictions seems to be the consensus for making this work.
b) 2 dice rolls (armor, FNP), 1 for AP 2, PW c) At wound allocation, which is probably the best method.

2. Invulnerable - Second easiest to implement. The big problem here is that you only get 1 chance to make the roll rather than 2, even with a res orb nearby. Going the invul route actually makes the army less survivable.
a) 1 dice roll, ever. c) Also at wound allocation.

3. We'll Be Back - Personally, I think its fine the way it is.
b) 2 dice rolls (armor, FNP), 1 for AP 2, PW c) At the end of combat. Not really the best way to do it, but it works for the time being.

I think that the best method would be a combination of Invul and FNP. Probably 3+/5+, FNP. That way, no matter what the damage, you're getting two saves with a res orb nearby.

Incidentally, while I'd love for them to keep WBB, I think FNP would be great for Pariahs.
They -shouldn't- have WBB, they aren't really robots in the same way as the other "Necrons", but they do need something to make them more survivable (among other things).

I've looked at playing necrons because I love the concept and look. Changes I would like to see, and might get me to make an army:

1)Phase out now reliant on having at least 1 "necron" model in play. As in at least 1 warrior, or 1 immortal, or 1 destroyer. Keep phase out, but make it much harder to hit.

2)Replace WBB with FNP and a 5++. For various reasoned mentioned before, this is a substantial boost.

3)Make necrons fearless.

4)Reduce Monolith ability to shrug off everything. Make living metal a 4+ invuln and that's it. Take away the Mono's immunity to being glanced to death.

5)Give everything more weapon options. Having an armoury with 5 or so ranged weapons is kinda lame and lazy.

6)Couple new vehicles, give a second troop option.

looks to me there are strong hints that Immortals might make it as the second troop choice, given that they're more or less "veteran" Warriors (and we got GKTs as troops too). I'm also hoping for the ability to build an all-destroyer army (perhaps a certain Necron Lord character can unlock them as troops, or a Destroyer Lord lets Destroyers be taken as troops, a la SM Captains on Bikes).