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Grundz wrote:Purifiers are bad news, but not world ending.
...Cleansing flames only effects models in base contact, so if you charge "short" on a flank, its still going to hurt, but it shouldn't hit as many boys
Many people will be combat squadding purifiers to double cleaning flame, use this to focus looter or burner fire on the psycannon squad (or close combat squad depending on your army), also remember that the psycannon models dont have power weapons so they should go down quickly in cc.!

1 5-man purifier combat squad can multicharge 2 30 boy mobs to kill almost 40 Boyz at I6-10.

For anybody that runs big mobs, that is pretty much the end of the world.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

skycapt44 wrote:True, but most kan walls have 2 KFF's. The Vindicare has to hit also. Not to mention if you have first move you could take it out first go (if it's not blocked of course).

It's gonna come down to the rolls of course but the point is a kan wall is still a good list to beat any GK list. Which is the answer to the first question posted by the discussion poster.

Not saying it's bad or impossible to win, just pointing out that the Big Meks would be vulnerable. Oh, and the Vindicare hitting shouldn't be an issue, what with BS8 and everything...

Yeah BS8 is awesome but wouldn't you still get a chance to save with KFF also?


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Also, this only works if they have a Vindicare in their list.

yes, but a 33% chance is still a 33% chance of losing the primary defense the army has.

vehicles have it a little better, but it still isn't a sure thing cause if the shot isn't saved the target is going down.


I will be using a Vindicare. i solve my Purifier desire by running Crowe(who doesn't suck. he's really cheap, unlike other GK HQs and Purifiers are the same cost as the original PAGKs so it really isn't a sacrifice)

Oh no doubt it is a great chance. Also consider the chance you roll a 1 to hit as well. There's a one in 6 chance of getting a one to hit plus the 33% chance of saving. Not bad odds if you ask me. Plus having 2 meks which I'd prepare for if I knew there was a Vindicare. Plus a big mek only costs 85pts.

The bottom line is a kan wall will still be competitive vs any GK list.

With BS8, if you roll a one to hit, you get to reroll and hit on a 4+. That's an 8.3% chance of missing.

So you're saying there's a chance

No. There's the 33% chance of making the save, and the 50% chance that the shot doesn't wound.

But over the course of 3 turns, that Big Mek's gone.

Weight in Numbers. + a few tanks.

sourclams wrote:

Grundz wrote:Purifiers are bad news, but not world ending.
...Cleansing flames only effects models in base contact, so if you charge "short" on a flank, its still going to hurt, but it shouldn't hit as many boys
Many people will be combat squadding purifiers to double cleaning flame, use this to focus looter or burner fire on the psycannon squad (or close combat squad depending on your army), also remember that the psycannon models dont have power weapons so they should go down quickly in cc.!

1 5-man purifier combat squad can multicharge 2 30 boy mobs to kill almost 40 Boyz at I6-10.

For anybody that runs big mobs, that is pretty much the end of the world.

This is why I laugh when people try to defend the GK codex and say its not that bad. That SHOULD NOT HAPPEN in 40k. Make 5 guys badasses sure, but the chance to crush a mob + of boyz? Seriously I need to read their codex, because the more I hear about it the more irritated I get

Deleted

Well, here's the thing, taken as a whole the GK aren't that bad. Any list with potent psydef will limit many of their unit buffs. Any list with abundant mech will have them struggling to close distance or get through the transport wall. And any list with low AP shooting can kill them off just like 15 pt Marines of other varieties.

But Orks really don't have many of those things, or really any of those things if talking a take-call-comers environment, and GK have the tools to really beat up on them with Vindicares sniping nobs and purifiers nuking mobs.

Fafnir wrote:No. There's the 33% chance of making the save, and the 50% chance that the shot doesn't wound.

But over the course of 3 turns, that Big Mek's gone.

the Vindicare won't ever be using the sniper rifle's basic profile.


I would be using the Hellfire rounds to wound a Bigmek on 2+,

or the Turbopenetrator to get 4d6 penetration against a vehicle.

Grey Templar wrote:

Fafnir wrote:No. There's the 33% chance of making the save, and the 50% chance that the shot doesn't wound.

But over the course of 3 turns, that Big Mek's gone.

the Vindicare won't ever be using the sniper rifle's basic profile.


I would be using the Hellfire rounds to wound a Bigmek on 2+,

or the Turbopenetrator to get 4d6 penetration against a vehicle.

Or the turbo penetrator to inflict two wounds and kill the Bigmek on a 4+.

Using the hellfire rounds, you'll wound the Big Mek 46% of the time, and you'll have to do it twice.

Using the turbo penetrator, you'll wound the Big Mek 28% of the time, and you only need to do it once.

Mathematically, you'll want to use the turbo penetrator.

Either way, he's dead

y0disisray wrote:I'm pretty sure kan wall would do fine against them. Their numbers can only account for so much when swarmed by 90+ boyz on top of kanz.

Everything has a weakness or a tradeoff, GK, or walls, boyz or GKT's.

Fafnir wrote:Or the turbo penetrator to inflict two wounds and kill the Bigmek on a 4+.

Using the hellfire rounds, you'll wound the Big Mek 46% of the time, and you'll have to do it twice.

Using the turbo penetrator, you'll wound the Big Mek 28% of the time, and you only need to do it once.

Mathematically, you'll want to use the turbo penetrator.

The big mek cant be shot if he is in a vehicle and orks never EVER put their mek with KFF in a vehicle. Sure the vindy can try and take down the vehicle but he doesnt auto pen or auto destroy vehicles.

Assuming the vehicle is destroyed you just need to deny the the vindy line of sight. If he cant see it he cant shoot it right? If he wrecks or destroys the vehicle deploy the mek near the back of the wreckage away from the vindy.
Or the mek can jump into another truck or wagon that is nearby in the next turn.

Exergy wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Or the turbo penetrator to inflict two wounds and kill the Bigmek on a 4+.

Using the hellfire rounds, you'll wound the Big Mek 46% of the time, and you'll have to do it twice.

Using the turbo penetrator, you'll wound the Big Mek 28% of the time, and you only need to do it once.

Mathematically, you'll want to use the turbo penetrator.

The big mek cant be shot if he is in a vehicle and orks never EVER put their mek with KFF in a vehicle. Sure the vindy can try and take down the vehicle but he doesnt auto pen or auto destroy vehicles.

With 4D6 armour penetration, yes he does.

All this crazed you cant take nobz you cant take nobz you cant take nobz confuses me.
if you have 10 nobs in a squad and you come up against a grey knights squad. Say the grey knights lay 3 unsaved wounds on the nobz. You can wound allocate one wound to 3 nobz and then they use force weapons to kill 1 nob. They cant instakill 2 nobs as each one would require a separate test and a squad can only use one power a turn right?

Or you could allocate 2 wounds to one nob and 1 wound to another. Then they can only instakill 1 nob anyway.

If you are facing purifiers you can charge them with some boys and some nobz. They have to choose if they want to use fire on the boys or save their power for the nobz. Its not like you are going to be outnumbered by GK as an ork.


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Fafnir wrote:
With 4D6 armour penetration, yes he does.

4D6 with no Str value
4D6's most common result is 14. Glancing a battle wagon in the front. Then there are a whole lot of results that are less than 14, which will ding and do nothing. Then there are some shots that pen. Less than half pen.

Actually, for every ID FW wound the GKs do, a Nob HAS to die.


you can't stack multiple ID wounds on a single model unless there are enough to put on on everyone.


and the way GKs take Psychic tests, it's either all the attacks are ID or none.



and, IIRC, a sniper rifle does have a Str value of 3 when rolling against vehicles.

Regardless, Battlewagons also have very large side arcs and it's tough to force your opponent to hit the front armor unless he's right in front of you. and Vindicares will most certaintly be somewhere to get the best angles. even then, the Exitus Rifle is AP1 and BWs have to take an upgrade not to be Open Topped. the Vindicare is rocking at least ony a -1 to his roll on the damage table, Mork preserve you if he pens and you didn't take 'Ard Case.

Grey Templar wrote:and, IIRC, a sniper rifle does have a Str value of 3 when rolling against vehicles.

Regardless, Battlewagons also have very large side arcs and it's tough to force your opponent to hit the front armor unless he's right in front of you. and Vindicares will most certaintly be somewhere to get the best angles. even then, the Exitus Rifle is AP1 and BWs have to take an upgrade not to be Open Topped. the Vindicare is rocking at least ony a -1 to his roll on the damage table, Mork preserve you if he pens and you didn't take 'Ard Case.

sniper rifles are, but turbo penetrator use to be 4D6 with no strength. I dont have the grey knights codex in front of me but maybe they did give it the Strength buff. That would still mean you are penetrating most of the time, but by no means all the time.

The Battlewagon might have a large side arc, but there is also only 1 vindicator on the board. He can certainly keep his front arc pointing at the vindicator or he can keep another vehicle in between.
Even with +2 for AP1 and open topped its only going to wreck the vehicie 2/3 of the time and that is before the vehicle gets its 4+ for being inside the forcefield. If it dies nothing will stop the mek from jumping in another truck the following turn.

Given 6 turns I am sure the vindy could knock him off, but if the mech makes it to turn 4 I think he has done his job very well, that is all he was there for anyway.

Grey Templar wrote:and the way GKs take Psychic tests, it's either all the attacks are ID or none.

Off topic here, sorry, but I've actually always wondered about this. If a Librarian causes two unsaved wounds on a diversified multi-wound squad, and then activates his FW, does it ID both models, or does he have to designate one of the two models wounded for the power?

SUPER MATH HAMMER TIME! (ignore if you do not believe in math hammer)

Vindicare snipes at S3+4D6+Rending with a turbo penetrator round. This means you have about an 80% chance to roll a 15 or better.
(I am not sure exactly because the calculator I am using does not do rending on a 4D6, but this is the best I could do, also there will not be enough glancing hits to make a huge difference. I am not concered with getting the numbers exact, but a rough ballpark will be good enough for me.)


so you hit 11/12 shots (Hit 91.67% of the time)
Then you penetrate 80% of the time (73.3% of the time you get a penetrating hit)
Then you get 4+ cover (36.7% of the shots will go through)

Then (against open topped) you get a +2 on the damage table
6.1% Chance to Wep Destroy
6.1% Chance to Immobalize
6.1% Chance to Wreck
18.3% chance to Explode

Total of 24.4% chance to destroy a BW. or rather a 75.6% chance it will live.


so over 3 turns of a Vindicare shooting at ONE BW, it has about a 43.2% chance of Making it to the next turn.
(it is .756^3 for those interested. What I do not know how to account for is for multiple weapon destroyed or Immobalized results, but it should be such a small percent that it does not matter.)


If you include immobilized, (which honestly a BW is mostly dead if immobilized), Then a BW has only a 69.5% chance of MOVING again from one shot or a 33.5% chance of maving with 3 shots.

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, for every ID FW wound the GKs do, a Nob HAS to die.

you can't stack multiple ID wounds on a single model unless there are enough to put on on everyone.

and the way GKs take Psychic tests, it's either all the attacks are ID or none.

again I dont have the grey knights codex in front of me, but that is not how force weapons work in the BRB. "After any unsaved wounds, The psyker may then take a psychic test to use the weapon's power against ANY ONE opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that players turn."
so normal force weapons dont work that way because first the wounds are not ID until after they are allocated, thus you can stack them however you like and secondly because it only works on one opponent.
Of course if GK have their own special FW rules in their codex that would be different.


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Kroot Loops wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:and the way GKs take Psychic tests, it's either all the attacks are ID or none.

Off topic here, sorry, but I've actually always wondered about this. If a Librarian causes two unsaved wounds on a diversified multi-wound squad, and then activates his FW, does it ID both models, or does he have to designate one of the two models wounded for the power?

he can only use it against one model, as per the BRB


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svendrex wrote:so with 3 Vindicares shooting at ONE BW, it has about a 43.2% chance of Making it to the next turn.

Vindys are unique. You only get 1 per army IIRC.

sorry, I though they were regular elite units.

Even if you don't destroy it, immobilizing it will be nearly as effective.

Also, Turbo-Penetrator just mentions having an Armour Penetration of 4d6, no mention of Strength (so either it only uses the 4d6 or it uses that in addition to the other rules for Sniper Rifles).

Exergy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, for every ID FW wound the GKs do, a Nob HAS to die.

you can't stack multiple ID wounds on a single model unless there are enough to put on on everyone.

and the way GKs take Psychic tests, it's either all the attacks are ID or none.

again I dont have the grey knights codex in front of me, but that is not how force weapons work in the BRB. "After any unsaved wounds, The psyker may then take a psychic test to use the weapon's power against ANY ONE opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that players turn."
so normal force weapons dont work that way because first the wounds are not ID until after they are allocated, thus you can stack them however you like and secondly because it only works on one opponent.
Of course if GK have their own special FW rules in their codex that would be different.

each GK in the squad is a psyker and has a Force Weapon.

the GKs have a special rule saying that the squad takes the psychic test, but they all benifit from it.



so one test will activate 1 ID causing wound per model in the squad.

not a huge deal as the basic GK has only 1 attack.

Grey Templar wrote:
each GK in the squad is a psyker and has a Force Weapon.
the GKs have a special rule saying that the squad takes the psychic test, but they all benifit from it.
so one test will activate 1 ID causing wound per model in the squad.
not a huge deal as the basic GK has only 1 attack.

but the wounds are not ID until after the wounds are allocated. Thus you can stack them as you like.

It matters not how many attacks a basic GK has, its a power they all possess.

I still dont agree that they can effect multiple models with it. The power specifically targets ONE model. All of the GK in the squad get the same rule but its still only against one model. Guess we need to wait for an FAQ.

You will probably get slapped for trying to suggest that each GK doesn't get to ID his own dude.

Exergy wrote:All this crazed you cant take nobz you cant take nobz you cant take nobz confuses me.
if you have 10 nobs in a squad and you come up against a grey knights squad. Say the grey knights lay 3 unsaved wounds on the nobz. You can wound allocate one wound to 3 nobz and then they use force weapons to kill 1 nob. They cant instakill 2 nobs as each one would require a separate test and a squad can only use one power a turn right?

Or you could allocate 2 wounds to one nob and 1 wound to another. Then they can only instakill 1 nob anyway.

If you are facing purifiers you can charge them with some boys and some nobz. They have to choose if they want to use fire on the boys or save their power for the nobz. Its not like you are going to be outnumbered by GK as an ork.


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Fafnir wrote:
With 4D6 armour penetration, yes he does.

4D6 with no Str value
4D6's most common result is 14. Glancing a battle wagon in the front. Then there are a whole lot of results that are less than 14, which will ding and do nothing. Then there are some shots that pen. Less than half pen.

If you would read the rules on GK Force weapons it specifically says that only ONE test is needed to "activate" the ID part of the force weapons. Really. SO that 300-400 pt diverse nob squad is in danger of having their models IDed by basic troopers. Should still win, and it comes out to a win for ork, but agianst more aggressive units with more attacks, you will lose more than 3.

notabot187 wrote:
If you would read the rules on GK Force weapons it specifically says that only ONE test is needed to "activate" the ID part of the force weapons. Really. SO that 300-400 pt diverse nob squad is in danger of having their models IDed by basic troopers. Should still win, and it comes out to a win for ork, but agianst more aggressive units with more attacks, you will lose more than 3.

If that is what it says in the GK codex then that is what is says. I dont have a copy on hand, but the BRB is clear on regular force weapons, which is what I was going off of.