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I don't really see the Masamune influence in the DK design. It would look a lot better if they had just ripped off his work. I don't think it looks all that bad and can probably look pretty awesome with some decent modeling. A good pose can go a long way with a kit.

Example: the Wraithlord. It can look incredible in the right hands, but when done poorly it looks static or maybe just drunk, depending on how bad the modeler is.

The dreadknight to me is actually the least impressive model (rules-wise and probably by appearance as well) in the book. I'm more annoyed by all the "remove your crap from the game" abilities they have all over the place. And the warband abuse will be most epic.

Sick codex though, just don't read the fluff if you value your sanity.

Fafnir wrote:A lowly Grey Knight who manages to do so is probably Grand Master material to begin with.

'Draigo' is a better example for Grand Master Material grey knights.

I can honestly say my daemons are looking forward to tackling a Dreadknight-I use Skulltaker almost every game, and he's sure to walk through them-3+ to hit, 4+ to instantly kill them as they have a toughness value. Next please. The Dreadknight is ugly and pathetic, but yes I realize it's powerful and relying on only one model to kill a DK is kind of foolish, but I thought I'd offer a suggestion out there to Daemon players who are afraid of dying to GKs every time-use Skulltaker and maybe it's time to bring out 3 soul grinders with S8 pie plates-any GK that takes a wound will die outright. I like those numbers.

I welcome the new GKs as a way to *finally* use my Emperor's Children as intended- badass warp forged perfectionists that can even bring a giant warmachine and cultists.

Why no love for the "deus ex machine-suit"?

Cause it looks like the warp vomited metal onto an ugly@$$ British nanny/babysitter. Or improved the appearance of Sarah Jessica Parker. Either or, it's still hideous

is ripley under that suit of armor??

Fafnir wrote:

Dammit... just saw some fluff mentioned in the Fluff section of the forums, and I am dissapoint. Ward just shat over some of my favourite fluff in the entire 40k background.

Do I even wanna ask?

Mr Hyena wrote:Its not really that bad.

I never did understand how one low-ranked Grey Knight could destroy a Greater Daemon of Khorne (which, y'know, is the best at melee combat).

Now; a Grand Master sure; but a low ranked Grey Knight? no way. Dreadknight, while a little silly; offers a more realistic view.

A Greater Daemon is large sure, but that just means it more vulnerable against a smaller target, particularly if there is a number of smaller targets hounding it. Its rare that a single Grey Knight would charge head long in, though that is the image that most of us have. After all the the picture refereed to earlier, at least I assume its the same one, The Purging of the tainted Basilica of St. Mariel shows the one Justicar valiantly charging a large daemon with an even larger multi-headed beast behind it. All the while his brothers hold of the lesser daemons. I would say it would also be important to remember that the daemons used to not be able to remain in our Realm very long, unless near a warp storm, before fading back into the Empyrean Abyss. So really a Grey Knight would only have to keep up the fight long enough for it to no longer be in our realm, which is no easy feat granted, but its what endeared them to us.

Fafnir wrote:

Gavo wrote:The problem about the Dreadknight is that the fluff behind it says "When there's a greater daemon, this is used!", when before justicars could stare down bloodthirsters and charge right at them, the ensuing clash being so epic that it didn't matter who won.

And that's what made the GKs so awesome in the first place. Ward needs to learn that sometimes, less is more.

He needs to learn how not to look like a drooling goon when his picture is taken before he can learn how to write a decent codex.

kigraa wrote:

I lol'd, quite a lot. Thanks

jmurph wrote:I welcome the new GKs as a way to *finally* use my Emperor's Children as intended- badass warp forged perfectionists that can even bring a giant warmachine and cultists.

Now, if this ain't the ultimate heresy... I love it

The best conversion idea I think I've heard is to replace the baby carrier portion with an armoured sentinel cockpit. I think that has great potential.

Though I think I may end up getting a dread knight for my second deff dread and putting an Ork in it. Looking forward to that.

I hope the lot of you are still able to sleep at night, considering all these horrendous worries GW is giving you about a plastic toy

I just don't sleep.

I think a back banner pole with a picture of a face or a skull on it would be really funny as it would locate right where the lack-of-a-head is. Really I don't mind the figure so much I have seen worse ones before, but I think my Black Reach dreadnought looks much cooler and meaner, even if it isn't towering over things.

What bothers me about the thing is based solely on what I have read on dakka dakka about its seeming invincibility to just about any way of killing it. All MCs are hard to kill, but have weaknesses to something or other, this has no weak spot in its protection from any kind of attack as far as I have read.

I think that is very unfair to other players. I have my eye on a Land Raider for my Space Marines because it looks so tough and hard to kill, but even that has the vulnerability of one lucky damage roll to a lowly meltabomb. I don't understand why it wasn't written as a vehicle just to give it some kind of vulnerability. I already felt my supposedly mighty and elite Space Marines were completely outdone by their upgraded superior but cheaper brothers in the Blood Angels and Wolf Codex, this sort of unit existing just makes it so much worse.

I think I have found the two images that make the OP's argument. This image is what I think of when I think of Grey Knights.
Not this.

Gavo wrote:I think I have found the two images that make the OP's argument. This image is what I think of when I think of Grey Knights.

Spoiler:

That image is exactly what I think of as well, its one of my favorite bits of art from GW.

TBD wrote:I hope the lot of you are still able to sleep at night, considering all these horrendous worries GW is giving you about a plastic toy

OMG! People are excited about their hobby.. That is so unbelievable..
Painting yourself and screaming watching two groups of guys running around after some leather ball or egg thousands of miles away from you is so much normal than this.
Fail post is fail.
Besides, most people here actually write in a very calm manner. Using some well placed and deserved criticism towards this big contraption. Or just normally speaking about things.
I haven't seen any "omg the ugly wtf I kill you GW die die dieeeeeee!!!11oneone!"


Lovers gonna love

Anyway just backing up most of opinions here. I'm really sorry some writers can't understand that every race shouldn't be Orks. Because this is the common look:
Bigger / stronger / harder hitting / more armoured etc. directly means some person is higher in a hierarchy. It's *not* obvious that grand master wtfpwns grand Daemons and just normal GK can't.
Becoming grand master doesn't instantly and magically give you bonus stats. It's like backtracking a hero. He isn't powerful because he is grand master. He *MAY* be grand master because he is powerful. But again, those are not Orks. The leader doesn't have to be the greatest MoFo around. Chapter leader should be a great leader. He can't be a pushover but with all races suddenly only raw frag ratio is important. Looking at GK it's sooooo easy to find other traits which could make a GM or any hero grand. Faith, honour, courage, sacrifice, leadership. But no, everything has to have orky design..
</rant>

Take GK codex. Rip out fluff. Problem (mostly) solved.

Cerebrium wrote:Take GK codex. Rip out fluff. Problem (mostly) solved.

Great idea right there

I have my own method for solving the GK proplem, completely ignore their exsistance. It has become a little more difficult with all of the discussions about them but I find that closeing my eyes, covering my ears and saying "Lalalalalalalalalalala" seems to help quite a bit.

My opinion on this matter: I agree it was much better with a normal sized GK going ARRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHH!!! and jumping at a greater daemon 3 times his size, thats what made them epic, and the DK was not needed. However i wouldn't of minded if instead of a GK piloting it you had your super awesome inquisitor in there. As for its design, I never noticed the "baby carrier" aspect of it. What sprang to mind was "APU from the matrix, but not as cool". Again I wouldn't of cared if it didn't look so "rounded". Its too smooth and shiny, it needs hard edges, rivets and skulls.

OP here. Thinking about it, this ties in closely with my number 2 GK beef. Daemonhunters had a great, simple balancing mechanism to offset the fact that GK would kill Daemons so easily; the rule that let Daemon units get recycled. Not only did this mean that Daemon users were not completely doomed, it also meant that battles involving GK and Daemons were invariably horrific bloodbaths with wave after wave of desperate Chaotic minions crashing against their fearless nemesis. This in turn meant that the fluff was well represented by Daemon confrontations by the GK only occurred where the Daemon problem was completely beyond the control of regular forces; as opposed to the rules stating 'GK are present, therefore Daemons recycle', it felt like 'Daemons have completely infested this place, therefore the GK are coming to kick some tail'.

The appendix stuff about GK opponents getting a Greater Daemon thingy in turn was a wonderful bit of fluffy writing that could have been incorporated into the main rules so as to ensure that every battle could be characterful. A sort of 'you may provide your opponent with a free GD, which they allocate to any IC or such, and in return you get the GD's cost added to your own army budget' rule. (Emperor's Children fluff proves that a found daemonic artefact can corrupt aliens, and Kroot fluff proves that carnivores can be corrupted by eating cultists, so don't tell me that a Tau or Tyranid couldn't end up getting possessed.) It encouraged narrative in games, it opened the 'official' scope of the Chaos Gods' ability to corrupt outside of Marines and FW Guard, and it could have provided a template for Genestealer Cult rules (which is possibly why it was dropped).

Now, it seems that Daemon players just get forced to appear half a mile away from the GK and get shot to pieces, hoping that their big guys don't get swatted by the biggest freaking mecha outside of the Titan Legions*, whilst the GK run around hosing down Ork and Tyranid hordes with Purifiers.

And no, I've no stake in Daemons, just hate to see the strongest narratological elements of the 40K rules go up in smoke in favour of 'w00t let's make another set of Marine plastic kits'.

*Excepting Knights, which are now almost as rarely acknowledged by GW as the Squats.

ph34r wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:What's getting my goat is the fact that, for me, it throws one of the defining aspects of the Grey Knights completely out the window.

I've always had the vision of a GK hero facing up to a Greater Daemon many time his size, duelling it in the middle of a circle of Nemesis halberds, holding back his opponent's blows and powers by sheer force of indomitable will as he exorcises it into oblivion, destroying its physical form and banishing it to the warp by virtue of absolute faith.

Agreed, 100%.

Well, you can still do that, just don't play any?
I like new stuff, this is new, it's crazy cool looking, what the heck!
I'd agree that it's a bit redundant to have another kind of combat walker essentially, but, hey guys with swords are stronger than guys with guns in this game so if that was my beef, well it gets a LOT sillier.

You do realize guys that you can write your own backstory for your army right? Im changing my soon to be grey knights to actually uphold what the emporer was fighting for not killing everyone who went "can't I just sleep in during the sermon?". The point is what the book says is the general fluff, that doesn't have to be YOUR fluff.

I don't understand the complaint with "the third big Marine kit".

It's for Grey Knights. Grey Knights are coming out. Are you surprised?

Oh, and by the way, in Mechanicum, there is a scene where Dreadknights (or at least something close to them) are being used by the Mechanicus.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:I don't understand the complaint with "the third big Marine kit".

It's for Grey Knights. Grey Knights are coming out. Are you surprised?

Oh, and by the way, in Mechanicum, there is a scene where Dreadknights (or at least something close to them) are being used by the Mechanicus.

I was alluding to the way every other release wave seems to be of a Marine army that gets a big plastic kit whilst other armies are still being left with fifteen year old metal minis or having to combine multiple plastic kits. So no, not surprised, just disappointed on that mark.

And I've no problem at all with Mechanicus having mecha. Heck, I'd love to see a Codex full of Skitarii - but in its absence, an Ad Mech / Inquisitorial Loader/Landmate unit would have been great if Ward was absolutely dead set on leaning over Cruddace's shoulder, massively beefing up a naked Carnifex and thinking 'there, 30pts extra should cover the difference'.

I just don't particularly buy the contradiction when the archetypal giant killers routinely deal with giants by fielding the biggest giant of all.

I agree with the OP's comments on the fluff. It's why I'm not particularly upset that one of the guys in my gaming group is going GK and since it's a small group that means I shouldn't upgrade my existing GK (which I used as allied for my IG).

I saw a post on here by someone else saying letters of complaint should be written to GW. If you received poor service from an employee of any other company you'd probably complain. I think that if enough people complained about Matt Ward, he might not get canned or reassigned, but someone might at least sit him down and talk to him and this could improve things a bit.

I know some people object to this idea, saying we're not professional game designers, but as with any product, consumers have a general idea of what's good. I don't have a clue how to design or build a car but I know that some cars are just garbage or I know when I've got a lemon. I think as gamers, it 100% fair game ESPECIALLY when the complaint is about fluff which, frankly, many gamers are better at than some of GWs employees IMO.

Furthermore, I remember back around '04 there was a big flap when one of the big names at GW (Gav Thorpe?) got frustrated at complaints on one message board and pointed out that there was a new job opening and they were taking applications so why didn't the haters apply? And then GW got a deluge of applications. I actually was one of the applicants. I don't know if the screeners were just being nice, but I got some very positive feedback about my fluff by they stated their reason for turning me down was my lack of Grand Tournament experience. I wonder if this was the job Matt Ward got?

If only I had a few GTs under my belt then, maybe I'D be taking all this abuse instead!

EDITED to fix an emoticon.

NWansbutter wrote:
I know some people object to this idea, saying we're not professional game designers

As a fine arts major focusing on New Media, I will be one.