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lindsay40k wrote:I've always had the vision of a GK hero facing up to a Greater Daemon many time his size, duelling it in the middle of a circle of Nemesis halberds, holding back his opponent's blows and powers by sheer force of indomitable will as he exorcises it into oblivion, destroying its physical form and banishing it to the warp by virtue of absolute faith.

But:

Big Stompy Robot = More Sales.

As much as I agree with you that is the only way to look at it I'm afraid. Sales > Fluff, therefore Fluff = Arbitrary, therefore GW can add to and take from the fluff as much as they need to ensure that new units can be slotted in that will generate higher sales. Everything else is secondary (or lower).

H.M.B.C. wrote:

But:

Big Stompy Robot = More Sales.

As much as I agree with you that is the only way to look at it I'm afraid. Sales > Fluff, therefore Fluff = Arbitrary, therefore GW can add to and take from the fluff as much as they need to ensure that new units can be slotted in that will generate higher sales. Everything else is secondary (or lower).

I agree and that is why Ward will be around for awhile. For the controversy. The codex will sell. The models will sell, but their is a caveat to this. Are the models going to be prohibitive enough for the average player to purchase a GK army?. If not then only the hard core and the perhaps Timmy 9yearold annoying the parents enough to get some models.

The rest of us might slowly build a GK army if the funds are available.

You want a perfect example of who GW is reaching out to with this Dreadknight? I'll give you one.

Last Sunday.

I was in my local GW as I wanted to see if the GK Codex was on sale yet (it wasn't). But the guy let me have a flip through the copy of the Codex he had and check out the models they had built (5 Terminators + 1 Dreadknight).

As I'm looking through the Codex, doing my bes to ignore the pants-on-head retar... I mean... stupid fluff, another man walked up, quite impressed with the new Terminators. He had his young son with him - 8 years old? Maybe 10? - and the son's response to the Dreadknight was:

"Whoooooooooaaaaa! Coooooooooollllll!!!!"

This is why the fluff doesn't matter. Kid ain't never going to read it. He's just going to make his big smashy robots fight the other big smashy robots.

And likely lose pieces of it under the couch for the cat to choke on when he's busy making his big smashy robots fight one another to the death.

Ten year old on Monday, excitedly related a report in WD.
3xDK vs Stompa and guess who got trashed, very easily.

Pretty much the same reaction HBMC, maybe a vowel or two less.

ok, this is the first time I've heard about this (been out of the loop for a while), my first reaction is WTF?!!

honestly, it looks like an old transformers toy. now when i first started i thought about getting DE instead of my IG but got IG because they werent all metal models (and i didnt want marines), thing was DE had that heroic thing going for them .... well if this is an indication of where they're going, i am so glad i got IG. at least when we get something new its a) got existing backstory, b) looks at least ok, c) fits in with existing army aesthetic and style and of course d) does not look like a dodgy fold up promo thing for a movie made in 1995.

now, the actual idea behind the dread knight is not bad, hell why not have a mini-titan .... thing is it doesnt belong in the GK dex, if it could posibly fit anywhere it would fit into a mechanicus army (anyone who has read mechanicum knows why). but GW wont do Mechanicus for some reason despite the fact that it is widely sugested as a good idea (as oposed to some of the aparent crap in the GK dex)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will not comment on any GK fluff in the new dex as i have not read it (if anyone can give me a link that would be awsome). but i will say this: if they have managed to fit this dreadknight in im not holding my breath.

<end rant>

Eura wrote:You do realize guys that you can write your own backstory for your army right? Im changing my soon to be grey knights to actually uphold what the emporer was fighting for not killing everyone who went "can't I just sleep in during the sermon?". The point is what the book says is the general fluff, that doesn't have to be YOUR fluff.

Don't you find that a bit sad though?
That instead of being able to read something we paid for and enjoy it, we have to either ignore it or make up our own stuff, because GW still hasn't got the clue that this guy writes like eight year old?
I know I'll try to ignore it, but christ it makes me sad whenever I think about what he's done to my beloved Daemonhunters

Fafnir wrote:

NWansbutter wrote:
I know some people object to this idea, saying we're not professional game designers

As a fine arts major focusing on New Media, I will be one.

Given how GW's origins essentially lie in a role-playing fanzine, I'm not sure how much weight you can afford to put on a professional/amateur divide in a debate on GW's design team.

Indeed, one does not have to be a 2E oldie such as myself (let alone an RT Ancestor Lord) to remember White Dwarf articles submitted by fans not employed by GW.

Regardless, the fact of the matter is that GW wants to come to an agreement with us whereby we give them our money and they give us new toys.

Now, they might well have the right as Intellectual Property owner to say 'this is what we are offering, take it or leave it'. But I recall during my days in GW Retail, just after the LOTR debut, a big part of our training was in how to introduce new players to the hobby in such a way that they developed as mature hobbyists in a paced manner. We were specifically told to avoid at all costs bilking kids with the gimmick of the hour for a quick buck, and that regions in which such cutthroat capitalist short-term profit seeking (wherein the shop's business plan was to shift as many Fellowship boxes as possible with zero hobby support) had been tried it was a complete failure in the long term as it did not yield repeat purchases and alienated existing mature hobbyists.

When it comes down to it, as the 'arms race' tendency only seems to gather pace and bulldoze any existing fluff (or lack of fluff) that might get in its way, the temptation to sink into another period of absence from the hobby only grows. And as consumers, we've every right to air our grievances with the direction the 40K IP monopolist is taking. It's entirely up to them to decide if our money would outweigh the cost of having a grassroots hobbyist with highschool maths and English proof-read an army book before releasing it.

lindsay40k wrote:
Now, they might well have the right as Intellectual Property owner to say 'this is what we are offering, take it or leave it'. But I recall during my days in GW Retail, just after the LOTR debut, a big part of our training was in how to introduce new players to the hobby in such a way that they developed as mature hobbyists in a paced manner. We were specifically told to avoid at all costs bilking kids with the gimmick of the hour for a quick buck, and that regions in which such cutthroat capitalist short-term profit seeking (wherein the shop's business plan was to shift as many Fellowship boxes as possible with zero hobby support) had been tried it was a complete failure in the long term as it did not yield repeat purchases and alienated existing mature hobbyists.

Well, looking at things from a pure ruthless business standpoint, I'd have to say GW is pretty crafty. I'm not a huge fan of the new Grey Knights fluff, and the more I hear about Matt Ward's contributions to the game, the less I like him. But that said, none of it is enough to make me walk away from the hobby. So, at least from my perspective and probably many gamers like me, it's at worst cost them some GK sales to me which will be offset by GK sales to kids, while they'll get my money anyway as it's all encouraged me to return to my roots (WHFB). So they're treading a fine line of boosting sales to immature power gamers without alienating the existing mature hobbyists to such a degree that they leave.

I catch flak for this every time I say it, but it's my view and I'm sticking to it.

The Nemesis Dreadnight is a the realization of the smaller Knight Titan class.



[runs and hides]

My main beef with GK now is them being written to use Daemon weapons.

I mean, wtf. That's just a slap in the face to everything they stand for. If they want Imperial units with daemon weapons, just make a "Radical Inquisitor" model, it'd buy that in an instant and find it pretty damn cool.

But the model is so badass...

I completely agree with the OP and others. Grey knights were once the coolest of the cool. The thought of the Awesome Justicar charging in and fighting a Greater Deamon is was the what drove my love for their chapter...and now it's gone. And it is replaced by this:

Grey Knight #1: "Justicar Jerkhammer! You sure can kick the crap out of these lesser Demons!"

Justicar Jerkhammer: "Yeah... I know... I'm Totally awesome!!"

Grey Knight #2: "Look, Justicar! A Lord of Change is up on those rocks!"

Grey Knight #1: "Whoa... I bet that dude is leading this demonic incursion!"

Grey Knight #2: "Not to mention he's casting spells and such! And that's... that's just not right..."

Grey Knight #1: "Yeah, you should run up there and whoops his ass, Justicar Jerkhammer!!"

Justicar Jerkhammer: "Easy now... look at the size of that thing! We maybe better get Steve over here in that giant suit he always wears. Maybe give him a sweet sword... yeah that sounds like it just might work!"

Grey knight #1: "...you're such a tool."

oni wrote:I catch flak for this every time I say it, but it's my view and I'm sticking to it.

The Nemesis Dreadnight is a the realization of the smaller Knight Titan class.



[runs and hides]

Whilst I am ambivalent at best about the 'baby carrier' form and strongly dislike the idea of Knights being a MC, if this were to be confirmed and the DK to lead on to Knight households getting 40K releases (even if just through FW) I would be very pleased and reverse my position. But, that's my 2E nostalgia showing...

I am almost surprised at how much I agree with most of the posts.
Although I do hope this:

loota boy wrote:But the model is so badass...

was refering to the post immediately prior to it and not the OP.

can't stand the new Ward knight fluff and optimusbayknight.

the fluff is just a load of cack now, especially being happy to have a guy running around using daemon weapons while wiping out relictors for using...what was it...oh yeah, daemon weapons.

and the optimusbayknight is an awful concept, awful model and fits into 40k about as well as logic does.

£20+ for 5 plastic toys doesn't help either

After reading the entire fluff section, I'm out. I'm done.

I'm starting Chaos. (Using the space marine codex counts-as, as it's a lot better for representing the Iron Warriors).

I'm shelling the bejeezus of of draigo if I ever fight him. Otherwise the Dreadknight is the target.

And remember: IRON WITHIN IRON WITHOUT.

Fluff counts these days?

With the various chaos factions buddying up together?
With the Necrons and BA playing tonsil-hockey?

I've ignored most of the fluff since 2nd ed and gone with my own version that keeps with that story.

New models, modified fluff to suit. Job's a good 'un.

Using their fluff as written? Might as well just become a card-carrying iClone, spouting the one true word ("pillock").

Cerebrium wrote:After reading the entire fluff section, I'm out. I'm done.

I'm starting Chaos. (Using the space marine codex counts-as, as it's a lot better for representing the Iron Warriors).

I'm shelling the bejeezus of of draigo if I ever fight him. Otherwise the Dreadknight is the target.

And remember: IRON WITHIN IRON WITHOUT.

So your going from a Codex with Totally messed up Fluff to the older codex with totally messed up Fluff?

Not that I can blame you Iron warriors are the shiz...which is why I play them. BTW thanks for the idea of using the Space Marine Codex as a Count As Iron Warriors Codex... I'm a complete ass hat for not thinking of that before!

'With the Necrons and BA playing tonsil-hockey'

Wrong on so many levels.. but then..

You have the T-800, famously played my a large, muscular man with stubble and an accent- butch

And then you do have the pretty, so very very pretty, BA...

Oh my, I didn't know about this BA/Necron thing. Damn.

Makes sense, though; you can only explain a Necron unit joining 'the bad guys' by being 'misdirected by Ahriman' or joining 'the good guys' by being 'reprogrammed by the Adeptus Mechanicus' or joining anybody because 'the Deceiver is up to something' at so many saturday participation games before a 12 year old hobby newbie loses interest in being a perpetual puppet and gives up collecting toy soldiers in favour of a video game in which they actually have some investment in the entities they're controlling.

Daemon hunters were always a bad idea as an army.
I'm not suprised the new book is stupid, the old book was pretty stupid too.

Personally when I saw that GK character with a Daemon weapon,I said surely they mean Daemon "slaying".

They didn't.

I mean,even if it can't be destroyed surely they have a massive vault for that kind of thing,not the whole "it will control men,he can't be controlled,give it to him."

Ah, so this is the reason behind the GK favour debate, lets have a look at this "Dreadknight"...

*dakka images*

...I want one.

If its too out of character for a GK army then I'll go Templars and write it a solid 24 carat fluff passport. The thing totally has throwback to Iron Monger and Landmates and is just too cool not to field such an artwork.

Incidentally, I wonder how GW stockists in Japan are going to handle a new release whose strengths include 'Warp Quake' and 'Radiation Grenades'?

Cerebrium wrote:

I'm starting Chaos. (Using the space marine codex counts-as, as it's a lot better for representing the Iron Warriors).

I know a guy who just changed over his Iron Warriors to loyalists after being fed up of the CSM rules, he's made great conversions (For example, Chaos-ed Land Speeder Typhoon with vandalized Imperial Fist icons...). Iron Warriors seem like a much better representation. Until they (hopefully) bring back legion rules.

ok, I have one thing to say to people: Dread Night does not belong in the GK codex!

yes its cool, yes its pretty, yes it has that "ooooooh shiny!" factor..... but it belongs in a mechanicus codex ...... or at least in apocalypse for fighting ultra mega deamon things..... the fact is that anyone using daemons against GK are Pwned anyways, new MC for GK is just another gimmick.... I will say however, this is not out of character for games workshop, after releasing all of the previously FW & Apoc only options for IG (which all at least had backstory), then the stormraven gunship (which has no previous fluff i can find), the DK is just another money making ploy (not that I'm complaining about the IG stuff or the stormraven<much&gt.

that said, if GW is as rubish with the ballance as usual the DK might end up being sh#t after all, then we're all laughing.... except all those 12yr olds who badgered their parents to get one.

Gavo wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:

I'm starting Chaos. (Using the space marine codex counts-as, as it's a lot better for representing the Iron Warriors).

I know a guy who just changed over his Iron Warriors to loyalists after being fed up of the CSM rules, he's made great conversions (For example, Chaos-ed Land Speeder Typhoon with vandalized Imperial Fist icons...). Iron Warriors seem like a much better representation. Until they (hopefully) bring back legion rules.

Ooh, I like that. I'm working on an Iron Warriors Thunderfire Cannon too. Seems like the sort of thing an enterprising warsmith would looooove.

I couldn't agree more!

The thing that made Grey Knights so special wasn't that they were just extra badass Space Marines. What made them stand out is that their adversary was so dire that "regular" Space Marines just wouldn't cut it, and even these paragons (no pun intended) fought an uphill battle against the stuff of nightmares given flesh.

Now they are just another flavor of the hurr-durr Space Marine/Duke Nukem/Master Chief, chomping on a cigar while nonchalantly dealing death to all they survey. They lose a lot of their nuance with this interpretation.

The fluff is pretty bad (I mean, carving a name into the heart of a daemon PRIMARCH? Really?), but if counts-as taught us anything, you can always retcon it in your head. Having read the piece about the Bloodtide, it's not a bad idea, it's just clumsily told. Simply portraying the Sororitas as willingly (hell, probably joyfully) sacrificing themselves to help defeat the forces of Chaos would improve the tale. That's what I assume happens, therefore I don't particularly mind the story. Even the requirement of additional protection makes sense, since the Grey Knight Omnibus has plenty of examples where the wards are inadequate against the machinations of Chaos (and in fact at one point are stripped/deactivated entirely).

The Aliens power loader is an aberration for the precise reasons stated by the OP. I only take solace in the fact that its cost curbs most of its potency, and T6 W4 isn't exactly hard to overcome. I do hope I don't see too many of the horrid things, and if anyone tries to stick them inside the stormraven because the teleporter makes them jump infantry, I'm smashing it with a hammer and throwing $55 in that person's face (I'll keep the money in my boxers).

chromedog wrote:Fluff counts these days?

With the various chaos factions buddying up together?
With the Necrons and BA playing tonsil-hockey?

I've ignored most of the fluff since 2nd ed and gone with my own version that keeps with that story.

New models, modified fluff to suit. Job's a good 'un.

Using their fluff as written? Might as well just become a card-carrying iClone, spouting the one true word ("pillock").

Care to share, dear sir?