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Mephiston

(5) Assault squad, Meltagun, Infernus pistol, Lasplas 180
(5) Assault squad, flamer, Lasplas 160
(5) Assault squad, flamer, Lasplas 160

Baal Predator 115
Baal Predator 115
Baal Predator 115

Predator, lascannon sponsons 135
Predator, lascannon sponsons 135
Predator, lascannon sponsons 135

= 1500

Enjoy.

So far my toying with it looks like this:

HQ

Reclusiarch with meltabombs, jumppack, handflamer - 170 pts
5x Honor Guard, jumppacks, x2 melta, x2 flamer - 195 pts

Elites

Furioso Librarian Dread - 175 pts

Troops

Ass Squad x 5, flamer, razorback with lascannon and twin plasma - 160 pts
Ass Squad x 5, flamer, razorback with lascannon and twin plasma - 160 pts
Death Company x5, razorback with lascannon and twin plasma - 190 pts
Death Company Dreadnought, blood talons - 125 pts

Fast Attack

Baal Predator, heavy bolter sponsons - 145 pts
Baal Predator, heavy bolter sponsons - 145 pts

it totals at 1470 atm... not sure about the Death Company, but i like them fluff wise and need them for Death Company Dread... Suggestions welcomed

Agreed with mercer and if you move your furioso just right the enemy will run away from it and run right to your assault marines haha because they arnt that scary is their answer. That changes after the assault squads finishes them off. Blood talons are amazing and they are cheaper than furioso libs.

cowpow16 wrote:Agreed with mercer and if you move your furioso just right the enemy will run away from it and run right to your assault marines haha because they arnt that scary is their answer.

Are you by any chance playing a slow?

@Jabbdo: I wouldn't really say that list was that great. The most obvious flaw with it is that you only have 3 scoring units, which are just 3 men each with no FNP and nothing that can protect them from assault. If I were to play you in an objectives game, they would be my first targets because they are fairly easy to destroy and it would mean that you have no scoring units. For instance, if you were up against a long fang/ razorback spam list, the 15 missle shots and 3 lascannon shots from the long wolfs alone will be able to destroy two a turn, on top of weapon destroyed/immoblised etc. results. I took 3 razorbacks in 1000 pts and they were all destroyed by the second turn with dark lance spam. The baal's aren't much of a threat unless there are things out of vehicles, and so are not going to distract fire in the first/second turn, and they are better tackled with melta's which will need to move to be in range (after its been stunned/shaken of cause...). If any are outflanking, then they are no threat at all until them come on. Once the 5 man units are out of the vehicles, then they won't stand up to much fire power unless they have FNP, even then I wouldn't place that much faith in them.

Are the flamers really necessary if you have 3 baal preditors, and are 3 baal preditors even necessary? Since 40k is mech, I would prefer to have more anti- tank to make sure that the baal's have something to shoot at. You also have no long range anti- infantry to kill the contents of an transport before they can run to cover kill something (important if they are blaster true born or fire dragons) and your baals are doing other things. Its necessary but shouldn't be spammed. I've found that heavy bolter preds are good answer to this.

I don't really think Mephiston is worth it at all. He's the same price as two librarians and a sanguinary priests, which can add 4+ cover to most of your vehicles about 90% of the time and FNP and FC to your troops. Having the two librarians, given sword, mean you you have two anti- tank/MEQ/MC threats in two places rather than one. Since he is not a independent character and he don't have a inv save, I really don't think he's that survivable, or that killy.

For example, if he was charged by 15 outflanking TS Hormogaunts (using the Hive Tyrants Hive Commander upgrade) I've worked out that he would kill, on average roughly 3 gaunts, with unleash rage and the gaunts would inflict 1.81 unsaved wounds on him, factoring in the dead and those that may not be in range. Considering that the above unit is half of his points and is a pretty mediocre at best, doesn't really help his case.

Against Eldar, 5 path finders will inflict 2 wounds at turn, likely to be rending, and even if he has 4+ cover, that's a wound a turn from a 5 man unit. This will go up to 3/2 wounds if he's doomed, which unless your opponent is an idiot he will do that. 3 double scatter laser war walkers a unsaved wound a turn and fire dragons 2.777, even if he hasn't been doomed and the units have not been given guide. Guide/doom blade storm dire avengers will inflict 1.27 unsaved wounds, on top of the above. Against mech eldar, he doesn't have a chance in hell.

A las/plas razorback will cause 1.62 wounds rapid firing, 3 of them could one turn him even if he still has all 5 wounds. TH/SS terminators will rip him apart, no math hammer necessary. 20 boys with a power klaw nob cause 2.53 on the charge, taking 3 causalities, and 1.79 the next turn, causing 4.32 wounds over 2 turns. DE wyches with an agoniser will eat him alive. Since he doesn't have eternal warrior or inv, force weapons will rip him to shreds.

In light of this, I've make the following changes to your list:

HQ: Librarian, Sword and Shield 100
HQ: Librarian, Sword and Shield 100

TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, HK Missile, 175
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, HK Missile, 175

FA: Baal Predator 115
FA: Baal Predator 115

HS: Predator, Heavy Bolter sponsons, 100
HS: Predator, lascannon sponsons, HK Missile, 145
HS: Predator, lascannon sponsons, HK Missile, 145

1,500

The lost lascannon is compensated by the 4 HK missiles I added to make up points, which is something I didn't expect but is a nice bonus.

I wrote this a while ago concerning Meph:

"From what I have heard during my wargaming career, there are usually 4 different opinions regarding Mephiston in his current iteration:

1. He's so broken with his t6 and 5 wounds and 6 attacks and str6 OMG

2. Meh, he's not great, too expensive, I'd rather take a lib.

3. He's good for his points.

4. Only n00bs would take him, a pr0 player like me can easily take him down.

Yet I ask you now, is Mephiston really as bad as the naysayers claim? Is he really terribly overcosted?

Lets look at a hive tyrant. For about 300pts, you can get a flying MC with 5 attacks on the charge at str6, rerolling hits, and having 4 wounds with a 2+ save at t6, and unreliable psychic defense (SITW).

Same thing with a daemon prince. For a little over 200pts, you can have a monstrous creature, with 4 wounds, a 3+ save, and t6, AND a 5+ invul (which both meph and the tyrant lack) On the charge, you prince hits 5 times at str6, rerolling hits and wounds (assuming Warptime, for a combat prince.)

Then lets look at mephiston. For 250pts, you get an INFANTRY model, who gets cover saves from having his left toe in cover, has 6 attacks on the charge at str 6, a jump pack, fleet, rerolls hits and has potential str 10, AND has FIVE wounds with a 2+ save at t6, AND, to top it off, has a psychic hood.

What it really boils down to is that Meph IS in fact a hive tyrant, on an infantry base, who costs less than his namesake. He has a potential 24" charge range, possible str10, brings psy defense, and is really easy to hide behind anything really. A tiny wall will give him cover, and a rhino will obscure him entirely. Sure, he will die to concentrated ap fire. But what if you cant see him? Uh-oh. If he manages to contact one of your regular infantry units, guess what happens? They die. What happens when he contacts one of your vehicles? It dies. What happens when he contacts THSS, a TWC unit full of SS, or any good invul save deathstar? He dies. The trick is NOT to end up in combat with such units, which an experienced player can do most of the time.

When you play meph how he is played best, jumping out from behind cover and slaughtering an infantry unit, before jumping to another unit 24" away, you will see what he is capable of. DONT attack units with good invuls/lots of PF's. You WILL die, for no gain whatsoever. Meph is best bullying those infantry units and fire support that the rest of your army has trouble getting to. Sure, psy defense shuts him down pretty effectively, but he is still no slouch in combat. If your opponent didnt bring psy defense... oh golly, this match will be fun.

I find that when you consider Mephiston not as a 250pt character, but as a 150pt upgrade for a librarian, you realise what a bargain he really is. He's Chuck Norris, all for the cheap cheap price of 250pts."

As for the lack of troops, yeah, there isnt many of them, but its usually easy enough to get cover saves for their lasplas from the preds (the whole army should have a 4+ on t1 thanks to scouting baal smoke shenanigans) and when the lasplas do pop, you can hide the guys out of LOS fairly easily. The baals can suppress vehicles fairly reliably, and the autolas should do well against mech in any case.

You dont need long range anti infantry, because Meph>any gak that spills out of transports you pop, and because you still have the baals (which will usually be shooting vehicles, admittedly, but can do a number on infantry if needed) and the flamer squads, who will happily tear GEQ's to pieces in CC. Against anything that you cant beat in CC, just drive away.

@Jabbdo: Mephiston is better than a 300pt Hive tyrant and a 200pt Prince because these are not good builds, its a silly comparison. A warp time prince with mark of tzeentch (4+ inv) cost 175 pts, a good CC build, I don't know what your adding to make it 200+ points. If Mephiston charges the 175pt prince he will cause 1.333 unsaved wounds with S10/FW, 1.375 with S10/PE, 1.25 with FW/PE. The prince will cause 2 wounds. As long as the prince isn't instant killed, he'll win. He's 75pts cheaper, more survivable in combat vs PW/PF etc. attacks and against AP1/2, and has a chance of winning against Mephiston if charged. Your cover point is mute if the prince has 4+ inv, as you rarely get better cover than that, and since the majority of terrain are buildings large enough to hide thinks bigger than a daemon prince behind the size of the model isn't so much of an issue. Saying if you can't see him you can't shoot him doesn't make him special because that is the same with everything in the game, and there are some ranged weapons that don't need line of sight.

An average 21" assault is nice, but you originally described him as a "strong counter assault element". If there are cheaper things, such as TH/SS termi's, TWC or the above prince that can stand up to him, he's not really that strong a counter assault unit in competitive lists. Orks could charge in to tie him up for turns and he's gona be killing about 3/4 orks if he charges, its not all that great. If he wins a combat, then chances are he's gona be out in the open, and if has assaulted 21" the likelihood is that he's going to be close to the enemy and unsupported and likely shot up/assaulted. He relies on his powers to be effective, if he uses all 3 he has a 24% chance of failing one, it can really back fire on you (see the force weapon above) and you could loose a 250 pts model. If your spending 250 pts on a unit that has a long assault range that can kill things not geared towards CC, then I think that's pretty silly.

Using the baals as cover will only work on the first turn, may be the next, before you move them to kill things. Also, relying on your baal's to give cover means that you have to deploy them in front and scout them, which is really tactically inflexible. Out flanking a baal with a flame storm can be really useful vs long fangs, wiping out masses of your enemies anti- tank in a single turn.

I forgot to mention that the auto pred is great anti- transport, so you don't have to divert las fire to rhinos that could be better used against tougher targets. I also just realised that your taking the TL assault cannon on the preds rather than the flamestorm cannon, which I thought was assumed, which explains the flamers on your guys. Done some math hammer, comparing the auto pred, the las pred and baal AC against armour 10/11:

Auto/bolter vs AV10: 1.2 to pen, 0.8 to glance
Las vs AV10: 1.083 to pen, 0.216 to glance
Baal vs AV10: 1.074 to pen, 0.53 to glance

Auto/bolter vs AV11: 0.4, 0.8
Las vs AV11: 0.8, 0.2
Baal vs AV11: 0.537, 0.537

The auto pred is clearly better vs AV10. Whilst it is less likely to pen vs AV11 than the las pred and baal, its more likely to do something to that vehicle, such as making it immobile or destroying a weapon, which is as good as destroying it in many cases. Auto pred is also good vs infantry, the rend on the baal countered some what just to cover saves. Take flamestorm cannons and you can destroy MEQ/GEQ with equal ease and can fit in meltas.

I realised that I made a mistake and didn't include the autocannon on the las pred, which means that things would look like this...

Auto/bolter vs AV10: 1.2 to pen, 0.8 to glance
Auto/Las vs AV10: 1.52 to pen, 0.438 to glance
Baal vs AV10: 1.074 to pen, 0.53 to glance

Auto/bolter vs AV11: 0.4, 0.8
Auto/Las vs AV11: 1.111, 0.444
Baal vs AV11: 0.537, 0.537

The auto/las pred is totally superior to the auto/bolter one for taking out armour, and in light of this I'd go for the las pred every time.

I personally wouldn't take Meph for Jabbdos number 2 reason. Meph is a bit expensive and can be torrented down even with cover saves. If Meph beats ass in combat he will stand there next turn and eat plasma or something and without cover or invulnerable or even shield power he will go down. Also the six Predators was too much and not enough troop choices...

You dont *need* 5 troop choices @ 1500.

Feel free to play whatever you like, doesnt really bother me.

Meph sucks? Of course he sucks if you charge him into THSS and gak, and stand in the open like a slow as target practice for plasma weapons. If you have vehicles in your army, your opponent shouldnt even be able to see Meph. You can hide him completely behind a single rhino. And if you wanna shoot your meltas/lascannons at Meph... fine by me, less of that nasty gak going into my vehicles. And odds are you won't even kill him in one turn.

Meph is a fething 150pt upgrade for a Lib. Show me, in any codex, a model that is as killy as Meph, brings psy defense, and is 150pts. Oh wait, that would be none.

His lack of invul doesnt matter unless you stick him in the open, and if you do that then you suck anyway.

"A warp time prince with mark of tzeentch (4+ inv) cost 175 pts, a good CC build" WTF?? Who the feth uses that. Slow as gak, dies at range to torrent, thanks to t5 and a 3+. You want a combat prince, you use MoN w/ wings and warptime, which is ~200pts.

Flamestorm on baals = showing your gakky side 11 to your opponent = death. TLAC lets you stay at 24", and conversely lets you stay alive. Of course you scout your baals to give your autolas/razors cover on t1, unless you WANT them to die?

"If Meph beats ass in combat he will stand there next turn and eat plasma or something and without cover or invulnerable or even shield power he will go down." Of course he'll die if standing in the open. Consolidate behind a wall or your own vehicle or some gak, if you cant get out of LOS you should at least have cover (unless you played it like a slow, but then you've lost anyways =D )

That's true you don't need 5 troop choices however in this setup you need the numbers, something which the list your proposed doesn't.

You're not always going to get a good consolidate roll into cover and my point still stands even with cover torrenting Meph will bring him down. Same will happen if wins combat against a infantry unit. Assault infantry of course is his best bet. Will Meph be killed in a single turn? Unlikely, and if so will require a lot of fire power or bad luck. Will in die in time? Sure will, it's luck of the dice and cover and Meph has to hope both are on his side and he wins combat (against infantry) in the opponents turn so can assault next turn.

Against crappy infantry units (5 man MEQ squads, random GEQ squads) you want to use preferred enemy to make yourself miss attacks.

Yes, really.

Say Meph charges a 5 man marine squad. You roll preferred enemy. He hits 6 times, hits with 4. Reroll those, now. You end up with ~3-4 hits, and around 3 kills. Marines hit back, do nothing. Now, they should either hold, or run, at which point you catch them and they take 3 saves. Now you are completely safe from shooting, and can finish off the couple of marines in your opponents assault phase.

This is what is known as "The good 'ol hostage situation" (at least by me ).

The same applies to any unit that suffers from "Good in combat but hates getting shot at" syndrome. Try to end the combat so that your opponent doesnt break/die off, but has so few models left that you can kill them easily in his assault phase.

HQ: Librarian, Sword and Shield 100
HQ: Librarian, Sword and Shield 100

TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, HK Missile, 175
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, HK Missile, 175

FA: Baal Predator 115
FA: Baal Predator 115

HS: Predator, Heavy Bolter sponsons, 100
HS: Predator, lascannon sponsons, HK Missile, 145
HS: Predator, lascannon sponsons, HK Missile, 145

Great list. Any experience with it?

@Jabbdo: You have persuaded me that Mephiston can be used well and could be useful, but all competitive armies have an answer to him. Mech eldar can shoot him to death in a turn, TWC have the same charge range as him (but don't need to pass a psychic test) and with SS/TH they should eat him alive, orks PK nobs with enough orks (20) can munch him. If he fails his wings ability then he's gona be sitting on his arse, and over 40% chance over 5 turns that he will. However, if you take 2 librarians with shield, you can make nearly all your mech twice as hard to kill, and the priest can make a few units far harder to kill and more killy. Spreading your threats is a good way to keep your opponent thinking hard when it comes to what to shoot.

Show me, in any codex, a model that is as killy as Meph, brings psy defense, and is 150pts.

Wolf Lord
Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Runic Armor, Thunderwolf, Wolf Tail Talisman, Wolftooth necklace, Saga of beast slayer
[250]

Wolf lord is a good comparison with your idea of a librarian upgrade (that does not allow for the cover save...), 100 base model and add can add up to 150 points of wargear. The stat lines don't come close, I'll give you that. The psychic defence is not as good, I will give you that. However, his guy can make a similar 21" charge without a psychic test, can join a TWC unit making him far more survivable and balances out the stat line issues, S10 without having to pass a psychic test with the thunder hammer bonus on top and has a 2+ and a 3++. This guy doesn't need cover, making him far more flexible to move. He's is less killy, but chances are he still will win combats band because of the 3++ makes him much more survivable vs power weapons, power fists, force weapons, ap 1,2 the exact things that are also going to be thrown at Mephiston unless your playing mech Eldar or Tau. Being less killy and more survivable means that your more likely to win the combat in their turn then you get to charge into something else.

Also, Ghazghkull (a 230ish model) with 20 boys with PF nob in a battle wagon, KKF nearby. Think of it as a >130 point upgrade for a warboss, after he has mega armour...

Having play tested flamestorm baals, that has not been a problem, and assault cannon baals are pretty naff at what they do. Outflank a flamestorm, move 12" and hit a unit of lootas or long fangs to wipe out a large chuck of their anti- tank, or take out a unit sitting on a an objective. Move them up with your razorbacks coving the side armour when you go to take objectives. I could have a rubbish anti- tank units or an awesome anti- MEQ/horde unit in an army that lacks anti- MEQ/horde.

I'd also advise that check the entry for preferred enemy in the rulebook. Especially the bit that says you get to re- roll misses, not hits.

PS. The my daemon prince build included wings, just forgot to mention it. MoN helps you against S4,5,6,7 but not against S8,9,10 ap3-1, power weapons, power fists, force weapons etc. MoN helps you against Tau, Eldar and ork shooting whilst MoT help you against all marines (especially grey knights...), imperial guard, tyranids, just anything geared towards CC and plasma/melta spam. I'm not gona say any more as its off topic.

@wuestenfux: No I haven't, but I've changed my list since then so it now looks like this...

HQ: Librarian w/ Sword and Shield 100
HQ: Librarian w/ Sword and Shield 100

TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Melta Bomb, Las/Plas Razorback, 170

FA: Baal Predator, Flamestorm Cannon, 115
FA: Baal Predator, Flamestorm Cannon, 115

HS: Predator, Lascannon Sponsons, 135
HS: Predator, Lascannon Sponsons, 135
HS: Predator, Lascannon Sponsons, 135

1,500

2 Flamestorm, 6 Autocannon, 4 (8) TL Plasma, 10 Lascannon shots on the first turn.

I'll play it in the next couple of days vs by mate who's running a Ghazghkull/battle wagon list. I've lost before the games begun, but that's what you get for playing razorback spam; no counter assault that can deal with TWC/Ghazghkull/Mephiston/TH termis.

I'm beginning to sour to razorback spam due to its complete redundancy against any close combat unit that 5 marines can deal with. Taking Mephiston means taking out a Librarian, Las pred, melta (and melta bomb) which is a lot. I haven't had the time over the past couple of days to really read the BA codex, what are other good CC units can they take?

Jabbdo wrote:Against crappy infantry units (5 man MEQ squads, random GEQ squads) you want to use preferred enemy to make yourself miss attacks.

Yes, really.

Say Meph charges a 5 man marine squad. You roll preferred enemy. He hits 6 times, hits with 4. Reroll those, now. You end up with ~3-4 hits, and around 3 kills. Marines hit back, do nothing. Now, they should either hold, or run, at which point you catch them and they take 3 saves. Now you are completely safe from shooting, and can finish off the couple of marines in your opponents assault phase.

This is what is known as "The good 'ol hostage situation" (at least by me ).

The same applies to any unit that suffers from "Good in combat but hates getting shot at" syndrome. Try to end the combat so that your opponent doesnt break/die off, but has so few models left that you can kill them easily in his assault phase.

I totally agree with this tactic but I did it reserve. I was playing against Meph and I was using Angels too as it was a club vs club comp. I purposely took off the sgt from the unit Meph attacked, that unit failed morale and the unit died giving up a kill point but Meph was then shot next turn as I had purposeful killed the hostages allowing me to shoot him, though I didn't manage to kill him and he had a single wound left - god damn meltagun failing to wound! Game ended in a well thought draw.

sHOEbOX wrote:
I'd also advise that check the entry for preferred enemy in the rulebook. Especially the bit that says you get to re- roll misses, not hits.

Its amusing when people quote rules that they apparently haven't even read

Ok fair enough, though not sure if its was meant to be read like that as the twin- linked rule does specify misses, but its there now.

Been looking at Furioso Librarian Dreads and they pretty much can do what Mephiston does but are cheaper and you can still take the two librarians, which can give it cover. Tbh, dreadnought models are disappointingly small so you can probably blag cover from terrain quite well, but you have the two librarians giving cover as well. Wrote up this list:

HQ: Librarian, Sword and Shield, 100
HQ: Librarian, Sword and Shield, 100

EL: 1 Sanguinary Priest, Brother Corbulo 155
EL: Furioso Librarian Dreadnought, Wings and Might, 175
EL: Furioso Librarian Dreadnought, Wings and Might, 175

TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165

FA: Baal Predator, Flamestorm Cannon, 115
FA: Baal Predator, Flamestorm Cannon, 115

HS: Predator, Lascannon Sponsons, 135
HS: Predator, Lascannon Sponsons, 135
HS: Predator, Lascannon Sponsons, 135

2,000

Brother Corbulo is a bit of a experiment.

Jabbdo wrote:

sHOEbOX wrote:
I'd also advise that check the entry for preferred enemy in the rulebook. Especially the bit that says you get to re- roll misses, not hits.

Its amusing when people quote rules that they apparently haven't even read

, though techinically it doesn't say you have to re-roll them all. Just says you can re-roll, doesn't specifically say which ones