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!ATTENTION!: The list orginally posted was not good, not good at all. As this this thread has developed, so has the example list. This is what I propose is a reasonably competitive list:

HQ: Librarian w/ Sword and Shield, 100
HQ: Librarian w/ Sword and Shield, 100

EL: 3 Sanguinary Priests,150

TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback, 165

FA: Baal Predator, Flamestorm Cannon, 115
FA: Baal Predator, Flamestorm Cannon, 115

HS: Predator, Lascannon Sponsons, 135
HS: Predator, Lascannon Sponsons, HK Missile, 145
HS: Predator, Lascannon Sponsons, HK Missile, 145

2,000

However, this lacks any close combat ability. This is why I am asking, what is a good close combat unit for blood angels? Please refrain from mentioning Mephiston as his effectiveness is being discussed on the second page, however, your more than welcome to add to the debate, though do please read what has been posted. ( Page 2- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/355115.page)

Below is the original post so that the thread still makes sense.

What types of lists are there and what works best at 1k/1.5k/2k?

This is a razorback spam list I wrote fairly quickly last night. I've taken vindicators over baal predictors as they perform a similar role (anti- MEQ/high toughness units), however the vindicators adds an element of anti- tank and has a greater range and spamming flamers in the assault squads adds loada anti- horde. The marines will move around in pairs/threes, within 6" of each other, to best benefit from the sanguinary priests ridiculous powers. They will also assault together, so they have the body count of a ten man squad but with 2 power fists and 4 flamers. Thoughts and feelings welcome.



Librarian, Shield of Sanguninius and The Sangunie Sword - 100
________________________________________

2 Sanguinary Priests, power weapons – 130
________________________________________

5 Assault Marines, flamer, sgt, with hand flamer and power fist in Las/plas Razorback – 195pts

5 Assault Marines, flamer, sgt, with hand flamer and power fist in Las/plas Razorback – 195pts

5 Assault Marines, flamer, sgt, with hand flamer and power fist in Las/plas Razorback – 195pts

5 Assault Marines, flamer, sgt, with hand flamer and power fist in Las/plas Razorback – 195pts

5 Assault Marines, flamer, sgt, with hand flamer and power fist in Las/plas Razorback – 195pts
________________________________________

Vindicator - 145

Vindicator - 145
_________________________________________

1,495


P.S: Yes Will, I am thinking of playing Blood Angels competitively, problem?

No problem here thats about as competitive as you can make them for 1500. If you could take a couple flamers and trade them for meltas you would have that extra punch for landraiders and stuff like that. all and all though i like it.

Posted loads of times, it's a list that gets you no friends or first place at a tournament

But i would relace those Vindicators with 2 Preds with Las sponsons and autocannon turrets

Or 3 Preds with bolter sponsons and autocannon turrets <-- If there is enough points?

You don't need power weaps on the Priests as this means you need to get them into base contact to fight, they will strike first if you charge but attacks will be allocated to them and they will die. You will then have no F.C or FnP which makes your Angels awesomez.

Change the Librarians power to unleash rage, really makes a assault unit kick arse even more.

Hand flamers are rubbish and you don't want power fists you want power weapons as you will be assaulting infantry and 4 S5 I5 power weap attacks are loads better. I would pack some meltas on the troops in case of armour 14 as the lascannons won't be enough as need a 6+ to penetrate.

Rest is fine, list is like mine.

I hate to say it, but it is a spammy list that isn't a good list.

You are spamming a lot of flamers in a mostly mechanized game, you have no melta, your powerfists are wasted on 5-man squads, shield won't save you from good ranged anti-at, and vindicators, while a good choice, isn't anything special to the Blood Angels.

At 1500, try this:

Librarian w/ Blood Lance, Unleash Rage = 100

Honor Guard w/ 2 Flamers, 2 Power Weapons in Rhino = 205

Librarian Dreadnought w/ Wings, Might of Heroes = 175

Librarian Dreadnought w/ Wings, Might of Heroes = 175

5-man Assault w/ Flamer in Las/Plas Razorback = 160

5-man Assault w/ Flamer in Las/Plas Razorback = 160

5-man Assault w/ Flamer in Las/Plas Razorback = 160

Attack Bike w/ MM = 50

Attack Bike w/ MM = 50

Auto-las Predator = 130

Auto-las Predator = 130


You still have the same amount of flamers and move and fire long range anti-at. But you have a greatly increase amount of melta, and you now have Librarian Dreads to handle heavier combat threats that your last list couldn't, and you present higher AV values at range so your list is less likely to get shot to death. Just an example of the things you can do. Not all spam is good spam, and you have to consider what your answers are to certain things.

Are you serious? You're saying about flamers and lack of meltas and you've added only two meltas on Bikes, whoopy do. Put meltas in the Assault Squads, not bikes. Shield you seriously under estimate it's a must power in any Angels list. Vindicators aren't anything special to Blood Angels? They're fast vehicles so can move 12" and still fire!

The original list is far better than the one you suggested and all you've done is added exploitable melta and more ranged anti tank. You've taken this list from easy to fix to long winded. Just give the Assault Squads some melta and job done. No need to add walkers which could fail psychic test or single unit meltas lol.

You're saying about flamers and lack of meltas and you've added only two meltas on Bikes

Plus Blood Lance, which has a resonable shot at heavy armor as well. Besides, last I checked 0 < 2.

Put meltas in the Assault Squads, not bikes.

While that is never a bad choice, the OP clearly felt the need for Flamers so I tried to preserve that. Attack Bikes are not a bad choice, it is cheap mobile Melta that can hide behind transports and benefits from FNP bubbles.

Shield you seriously under estimate it's a must power in any Angels list.

I strongly disagree that it is a "must have power". It is good, don't get me wrong, but because it is a power, it can be hooded/runis weaponed, it only gives you a 5+ cover save, and won't save your transports in assault. To top it off, you have to bunch your transports together to take full advantage of it. Now on a Librarian in something like a Storm Raven or a Land Raider where the effects of that power cover more of the table.

But between proper deployment and proper terrain coverage, there should be no reason you ain't getting a 4+ cover save anyways, especially on the things that matter. In that context, why not just make your librarian more aggressively focused? That is my point.

Vindicators aren't anything special to Blood Angels? They're fast vehicles so can move 12" and still fire!

Versus the codex Marine variety that can move 6" and still fire, or versus the Black Templar variety that can move 12" still fire, and is immune to shaken and stunned results.

Think about what you are getting with the Vindicator, a high str, low ap large blast that disappears as soon as a weapon destroyed result appears, that is probably firing at something in cover anyways.

Compared to a Predator, that can fire 3 different guns on a 6" move, still fire on a 12" move, and can take damage results better for 15 points less, and I would rather have the Predator, any time.

The original list is far better than the one you suggested and all you've done is added exploitable melta and more ranged anti tank. You've taken this list from easy to fix to long winded. Just give the Assault Squads some melta and job done. No need to add walkers which could fail psychic test or single unit meltas lol.

IMHO, the primary problem with the OP's list was it's lack of assault punch, that is what the Dreadnoughts are there for. They could fail a psychic test or be hooded, yes, but they can bring the potential of a decent number of str. 10 hits in combat, and because of their high armor, tie up certain units to allow him to dictate his reactions better.

The list I built is what it is for a reason, an attempt to take the concept the OP put down, refine it, and fill holes in potential battle strategy. There are 50000 and 1 different ways to do competitive Blood Angels, I just presented one option.

Blood lance isn't a melta weapon it's a lance so only works truely against armour 14 for best benefits. So you have two meltas...

Bikes are mobile and get feel no pain but easy targets to disepense off and only to of them. Hardly a threat. Not enough melta to actually do anything.

The foot print of a Storm Raven and Land Raider is only bigger the issues you presented still remain so it makes little odds. Hoods and rune staffs are just luck of the dice roll not a 100% guranteed counter. While you're not always going to make that 5+ cover save in fact 33% chance it's better than nothing and if anyone has got close to your tanks to assault you then it's just the same as smoke and why have you let someone get that close with all those guns for?

The Pred and Vindicator are like comparing apples and oranges they do slightly different things. Pred is purely anti tank and monstrous creature and tough infantry like Terminators while Vindicator is all that plus vehicles. My point is with las/plas Razorbacks the Preds aren't required and some S10 armour busting stuff and large blast goodness fits very nicely.

Lack of assault punch? They're Assault Squads with furious charge and power weap/fist. Not Terminator punching but above average. There also isn't 50000 and 1 ones to build competitive Blood Angels.

I'm going to have to agree with everything mercer said, all you did to the guys list was make it worse.

mercer helped me put together a really good DOA list which is playing really well, and trust me meltaguns are the way forward with assault squads

I'd prefer a DoA list:

Librarian w/ jump pack, blood lance, shield – 125
Honor Guard w/ jump packs, melta x2, flamer x2 – 195

2 Sanguinary Priests w/ jump packs – 150
5 Sanguine Guard - 200

10 Assault Marines w/ melta x2 – 235
10 Assault Marines w/ melta x2 – 235

5 Vanguard Veterans w/ jump packs, power fist – 175
5 Vanguard Veterans w/ jump packs, power fist – 175

Total: 1495 pts.

wuestenfux wrote:I'd prefer a DoA list:

Librarian w/ jump pack, blood lance, shield – 125
Honor Guard w/ jump packs, melta x2, flamer x2 – 195

2 Sanguinary Priests w/ jump packs – 150
5 Sanguine Guard - 200

10 Assault Marines w/ melta x2 – 235
10 Assault Marines w/ melta x2 – 235

5 Vanguard Veterans w/ jump packs, power fist – 175
5 Vanguard Veterans w/ jump packs, power fist – 175

Total: 1495 pts.

Why the Sanguinary Guard? Remove them and add another VV unit or another 10 man assault squad.

Thamor wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:I'd prefer a DoA list:

Librarian w/ jump pack, blood lance, shield – 125
Honor Guard w/ jump packs, melta x2, flamer x2 – 195

2 Sanguinary Priests w/ jump packs – 150
5 Sanguine Guard - 200

10 Assault Marines w/ melta x2 – 235
10 Assault Marines w/ melta x2 – 235

5 Vanguard Veterans w/ jump packs, power fist – 175
5 Vanguard Veterans w/ jump packs, power fist – 175

Total: 1495 pts.

Why the Sanguinary Guard? Remove them and add another VV unit or another 10 man assault squad.

The SG is tough to beat.
It can easily take on a LF pack with missile launchers or survive S8 AP3 templates from Defilers and Leman Russes.

wuestenfux wrote:

Thamor wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:I'd prefer a DoA list:

Librarian w/ jump pack, blood lance, shield – 125
Honor Guard w/ jump packs, melta x2, flamer x2 – 195

2 Sanguinary Priests w/ jump packs – 150
5 Sanguine Guard - 200

10 Assault Marines w/ melta x2 – 235
10 Assault Marines w/ melta x2 – 235

5 Vanguard Veterans w/ jump packs, power fist – 175
5 Vanguard Veterans w/ jump packs, power fist – 175

Total: 1495 pts.

Why the Sanguinary Guard? Remove them and add another VV unit or another 10 man assault squad.

The SG is tough to beat.
It can easily take on a LF pack with missile launchers or survive S8 AP3 templates from Defilers and Leman Russes.

Providing the can't assault the turn they deepstrike and running them across the field would be pointless, they would die to plasma fire very fast and thats a wasted 200 points.

You can't say they are good just because they can take shots from 2 vehicles.

But you need some tougher unit.
An alternative would be 5 Termies.

*sigh*

I sometimes wish people would realise that building razorspam lists involves more than typing "6x assault squad in lasplas".

A good BA razorspam list has two things: armor saturation, and good synergy between units. It also benefits hugely from a strong counter assault element (Mephiston )

Currently, the vindicators are wasted. Why? Because they are the only av13 targets on the board, and will be rendered useless by a single weapon destroyed result (or can just be suppressed turn after turn.)

Priests arent really needed in a list like this, if you must have FnP then take one with no upgrades.

5 av11 vehicles really isnt anything to write home about. You need more. In a mech list, lots of vehicles>a small number of killy vehicles. You could fit 10 vehicles into a 1500pt list, as opposed to the 7 you currently have. More vehicles are harder to suppress, harder to destroy, and grant you greater mobility, and through it board control.

Hope that helps.

Blood lance isn't a melta weapon it's a lance so only works truely against armour 14 for best benefits. So you have two meltas...

Again, 2 is better then none, and the Blood Lance is great because it can effect multiple vehicles, not just one.

Bikes are mobile and get feel no pain but easy targets to disepense off and only to of them. Hardly a threat. Not enough melta to actually do anything.

First off, Attack Bikes are small enough to be completely blocked from LOS from most things if you are playing a list that has a lot of Mech. And honestly, if they are throwing high str guns at it, then they are not shooting those guns at your lightly armored transports.

The list has plenty of anti-tank, at 1500 points, you will rarely see armor that 2 Meltas, a Blood Lance, and 7 Lascannons can't deal with.

The foot print of a Storm Raven and Land Raider is only bigger the issues you presented still remain so it makes little odds. Hoods and rune staffs are just luck of the dice roll not a 100% guranteed counter. While you're not always going to make that 5+ cover save in fact 33% chance it's better than nothing and if anyone has got close to your tanks to assault you then it's just the same as smoke and why have you let someone get that close with all those guns for?

Land Raiders and especially Storm Ravens are harder to get cover for, so a flat 5+ is useful in those situations too. The problem with Shield is that if you really want to take advantage of it, you are usually deploying and moving fairly close to each other, making you open for a good combat multi-charge.

The power isn't bad, but I don't think it is as critical as you think.

The Pred and Vindicator are like comparing apples and oranges they do slightly different things. Pred is purely anti tank and monstrous creature and tough infantry like Terminators while Vindicator is all that plus vehicles. My point is with las/plas Razorbacks the Preds aren't required and some S10 armour busting stuff and large blast goodness fits very nicely.

I disagree. The Vindicator has a single gun, that is inaccurate because it scatters, and will be blown off the first major damage it takes. The Predator is cheaper, has more quality firepower, and can stand punishment longer. It is IMHO, the superior choice.

Lack of assault punch? They're Assault Squads with furious charge and power weap/fist. Not Terminator punching but above average. There also isn't 50000 and 1 ones to build competitive Blood Angels.

Yes, because 5-man Marine squads are threatening in assault.

And there are plenty of varied ways to build good competitive Blood Angels lists. Almost all of the units are good with certain synergies and it is probably the best codex for variety of builds right now.

Razorback spam + vindicators is not a list I am afraid of, and not a list that easily wins tournaments if your opponent knows half of what he is doing. Jabbdo hit the nail on the head. It isn't just what you are bringing offensively, it is also how well your army can take damage and present difficult threats to your opponent.

Look at Jawaballs competitive lists:

http://warhammer40kbloodangels.blogspot.com/2011/03/jawaballs-plays-in-3-game-local.html

http://warhammer40kbloodangels.blogspot.com/2010/11/as-requested-my-mechanicon-gt-winning.html

He does similar things to what I suggested.

The Librarian Dreadnoughts are there for two reasons, Assault potential, and AV saturation, that is why they fit with Razrback heavy lists. But you don't need them, and they could have easily been swapped for many other units who would bring that assault punch you need, like Assault Terminators, or Death Company.

Like I said, you have options, the list I posted was a suggestion to the OP, I don't think it is the only option, but I stand by its ability to win games.

What about this?

HQ: Librarian w/ Shield and Unleash Rage 100

EL: Sanguinary Priest w/ Meltabombs

TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist, Las/Plas Razorback 190
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist, Las/Plas Razorback 190
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Flamer, Las/Plas Razorback 160
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Flamer, Las/Plas Razorback 160

FA: Baal Predator 115
FA: Baal Predator 115
FA: Baal Predator 115

HS: Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons 100
HS: Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons 100
HS: Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons 100

Total: 1500 points

10 vehicles, 6 of which are AV 13. I would not outflank the Baals, I think. I would consider doing something else with the Priest, but there isn't an obvious use for the 55 points otherwise, except Lightning Claws/Power Fists on the Flamer squads, and I think the Priest will help more against hordes anyway.

First of all, thanks for all the responses, I'm pleasantly surprised at how many people have commented. Now, to business...

@Everyone: I'm going to spam meltas I don't have a chance in hell killing Av14 otherwise, and adds some more anti MEQ looking at it optimistically.

Vindicators vs preds seems to be a matter of taste. I'm siding with the vindicators as they add anti- horde, anti- MEQ and anti- Av 13/14. 'Anti- Av 13/14' I hear you say 'but that is a large blast, it will scatter and never hit!'. On average, it will scatter 3", which on targets the size of land raiders, monoliths and battle wagons, sin't much of a problem, and the ordinance is nice. If it does miss, there is a good chance you will hit something else instead. It will also fill the roll of anti-infantry nicely in the absence of flamers. Yes, 1/6 of the time it will lose its gun with a pen which is less likely to happen that it being destroyed with a pen. That is the only down side and I feel that it is not really that terrible.

@mercer: The power weapons were added as I had 30 points to spare. If you position the priest so that only one, non- threatening model is in contact, then he will be able to get his attacks with minimal risk. I can't vouch how difficult that would be, and I am some what sceptical that a power weapon is necessary against a unit that contains units that will have difficulty killing a T4 3+ Sv. Its 30 points I couldn't think of anything better to spend them on.
Unleash rage seems like a good idea, its a good force multiplier for the small units. I assumed that hand flamers, being double the points, would be S4 ap5 like normal flamers; TIL, read tehs codexs! The S9 of the power fists can bust vehicles, instant kill models such as ork nobs and means that if your charged by a walker/monstrous creature, you will has a much easier time winning combat.

@Mahu:

Yes, because 5-man Marine squads are threatening in assault.

And that is why you:
A) Charge in 2 squads at a time
B) Don't place them so that the 5 men are easily assaulted

10 men, with 2 power fists, power weapon, and unleash rage backed up the twin linked plasma of their supporting razorbacks, will kill 3 assault terminators on the charge. This does not factor in bolt pistol shots (low chance, I know..), the lascannons and the Librarian attacks, as the math hammer calculator on had room for 3 weapons and I cba to add it up myself right now. There is a good chance that I would have shot the termi unit in previous turns, and as assault squads come in units of 5, confident that I could deal with them. If I can deal with them, I'm confident I could deal with most nasty CC units.

And thanks for the link, I never though of taking assault terminators with lightning claws instead of TH/SS for some reason...

@MrEconomics: Wow, just wow.

That is one hell of an awesome list, however, I would make some minor changes:


HQ: Librarian w/ Sword and Unleash Rage 100 

EL: Sanguinary Priest w/ melta bomb 55

TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist, Las/Plas Razorback 190 
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist, Las/Plas Razorback 190 
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist, Las/Plas Razorback 190 
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist Las/Plas Razorback 190 
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback 165 

FA: Baal Predator 115 
FA: Baal Predator 115 

HS: Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons 100 
HS: Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons 100

1,500

Was going for more men on the table, with a greater amount of men on the table and more anti- tank. However, jack this up to 2,000 points and we get something really quite special...

HQ: Librarian w/ Sword and Unleash Rage 100 

EL: 3 Sanguinary Priests 150

TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist, Las/Plas Razorback 190 
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist, Las/Plas Razorback 190 
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist, Las/Plas Razorback 190 
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist Las/Plas Razorback 190 
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist Las/Plas Razorback 190 
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback 165 

FA: Baal Predator 115 
FA: Baal Predator 115 
FA: Baal Predator 115 

HS: Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons 100 
HS: Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons 100 
HS: Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons 100

2,000

I'll be play testing the above tomorrow vs dark eldar, I'll say how it goes.

sHOEBOX I think you got the idea for BA with those last two lists you just posted up. Although I'd try and fit in another librarian so you can bubble them in SOS and essentially always have a cover save.

^+1
definitely, those last two lists look painful....

Yes they are competitive but so extremely boring to play but it all depends if you want to win no matter what ya this works just saying I have played this list or one similar but it was a yawn.

TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist, Las/Plas Razorback 190
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist, Las/Plas Razorback 190
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist, Las/Plas Razorback 190
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist Las/Plas Razorback 190
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist Las/Plas Razorback 190
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback 165

Too many Razorback units. At the 1500 pt level, four of them will suffice.

cowpow16 wrote:Yes they are competitive but so extremely boring to play but it all depends if you want to win no matter what ya this works just saying I have played this list or one similar but it was a yawn.

I agree, really boring lists to play and play against, the lists should be used at tournys not against friends, unless you want to lose them.

I have a question. is it possible to build a competitive (tournament wise) 1,5k pts army list based on Reclusiarch HQ in terminator armour ? Im just so in love with this model that i would like to have it as my commander, but will it work in any way ? Im plannin an army build on

HQ Reclusiarch/Librarian

with Baals and Dreds as a must

rest is up to be decided, but i always liked the heavy hitters

if anyone has some advice, i will be glad to hear it.
Thank You in advance.

Mahu wrote:Again, 2 is better then none, and the Blood Lance is great because it can effect multiple vehicles, not just one.

You're missing the point of melta saturation.

Bikes are mobile and get feel no pain but easy targets to disepense off and only to of them. Hardly a threat. Not enough melta to actually do anything.

First off, Attack Bikes are small enough to be completely blocked from LOS from most things if you are playing a list that has a lot of Mech. And honestly, if they are throwing high str guns at it, then they are not shooting those guns at your lightly armored transports.

The list has plenty of anti-tank, at 1500 points, you will rarely see armor that 2 Meltas, a Blood Lance, and 7 Lascannons can't deal with.

You are missing the point of melta saturation. I will explain in more detail. If I am running several armour 14 vehicles then your lascannons do not scare me. Only the melta and lance does and you have three weapons to threaten me. I kill those melta units and torrent the Librarians unit and then you have lascannons which can only threaten on armour 14 on a 6+, not very good at all. If you're going to take melta you take in the Assault Squads because you can pack more for cheaper, you can get 6 meltaguns in the Assault Squads for half of a single Attack Bike.

The foot print of a Storm Raven and Land Raider is only bigger the issues you presented still remain so it makes little odds. Hoods and rune staffs are just luck of the dice roll not a 100% guranteed counter. While you're not always going to make that 5+ cover save in fact 33% chance it's better than nothing and if anyone has got close to your tanks to assault you then it's just the same as smoke and why have you let someone get that close with all those guns for?

Land Raiders and especially Storm Ravens are harder to get cover for, so a flat 5+ is useful in those situations too. The problem with Shield is that if you really want to take advantage of it, you are usually deploying and moving fairly close to each other, making you open for a good combat multi-charge.

The power isn't bad, but I don't think it is as critical as you think.

It's a 4+ cover for flat and how many 4+ cover saves will you make? It's not as critical as I think it's as critical as I know. The only problem is as you mentioned is multi assault, which shouldn't really happen and if it does you can counter assault them next turn as the enemy unit stands there and pisses in the wind. Shield power is definately for mech armies as it keeps you shooting and getting cover.

The Pred and Vindicator are like comparing apples and oranges they do slightly different things. Pred is purely anti tank and monstrous creature and tough infantry like Terminators while Vindicator is all that plus vehicles. My point is with las/plas Razorbacks the Preds aren't required and some S10 armour busting stuff and large blast goodness fits very nicely.

I disagree. The Vindicator has a single gun, that is inaccurate because it scatters, and will be blown off the first major damage it takes. The Predator is cheaper, has more quality firepower, and can stand punishment longer. It is IMHO, the superior choice.

It's down to taste at the end of the day, point is the list has many lascannons already and doesn't need any more. What it needs is some tough infantry and horde control in the form of double Vindicators.

Lack of assault punch? They're Assault Squads with furious charge and power weap/fist. Not Terminator punching but above average. There also isn't 50000 and 1 ones to build competitive Blood Angels.

Yes, because 5-man Marine squads are threatening in assault.

Did you read what I put?

sHOEbOX wrote:

@mercer: The power weapons were added as I had 30 points to spare. If you position the priest so that only one, non- threatening model is in contact, then he will be able to get his attacks with minimal risk. I can't vouch how difficult that would be, and I am some what sceptical that a power weapon is necessary against a unit that contains units that will have difficulty killing a T4 3+ Sv. Its 30 points I couldn't think of anything better to spend them on.
Unleash rage seems like a good idea, its a good force multiplier for the small units. I assumed that hand flamers, being double the points, would be S4 ap5 like normal flamers; TIL, read tehs codexs! The S9 of the power fists can bust vehicles, instant kill models such as ork nobs and means that if your charged by a walker/monstrous creature, you will has a much easier time winning combat.

Take infernus pistols then to increase melta load out. If the Priest does gt in contact with a single model then wounds can be allocated to ANY model in the enemy unit so just remove one from the back no in b2b with the Priest. Any model then within 3" of the enemy model in b2b with the Priest can attack the Priest also providing not in b2b of another model, so that's more than one enemy model attacking the Priest.

Krak grenades can bust vehicles so can weight of attacks from furious charge. Point is you cannot charge out of a tank so the power fist you won't use a lot, you will get out unleash the melta and get shot next turn (this is where the Priest comes in handy) next turn you can charge providing your unit is still alive and hasn't been charged.

@cowpow16: 'Fun' is pretty subjective. My first army are Tyranids, and as much I love the bugs, playing game after game of marching up the board getting shot and them having mediocre assaults isn't fun. The only list that I am aware of that is effective at getting your bugs to close the gap quickly is genestealer/trygon spam, which is only really effective at 2k, and relies on luck to get you army in quick, as you outflank/deep strike the units. This could either lead to boring as hell games where your units come in piece meal or all at once, leading to really unbalanced games.

The best games are ones that are equally balanced, both sides have good lists and have a good understanding of 40k tactics. I feel that list is fun because you don't have to worry so much, as I do with nids, 'I can actually kill that'. In the same way, I wouldn't really enjoy playing it casually a lot, because it would just end up being boring win after boring win. The list does have some very obvious flaws which will be a challenge to get around, such as the drawbacks of MSU. You have to be very, very careful not to get shot up or charged, and can take a fair bit of brain power to make sure that doesn't happen. This is negated somewhat by the FNP, though as one of my friends, who I am playing later, pointed out, by shooting the razorbacks that contain the SP so that they have to dismount/can't move could cripple the list. Finding ways round this is going to be really enjoyable

@Ghostvoice: Welcome to dakka mate! Depends on what you mean by competitive; do you mean good or tournament winning? For example, the Ork Kan wall (9 Killa Kans and a couple of KFF big meks with lots of boys) is a good list, however its never going to stand up to say, long fang/razorback spam.

Reclusiarch in termi armour is 160 points, and your going to need to transport him, and the only choice is a land raider. Your also going to need some boys to back him up, the obvious choice would be TH/SS termi's, taking him with power armour units means that they won't be able to run down their enemies in CC. That unit is 625 at its cheapest, over a third of your points on only 6 dudes, and once the transports been popped, most good lists won't have to hard a time killing them in a turn or two. However, if you wana play that at 3,000 points, that would be pretty bad ass as you would be able to afford more threats to distract your opponent with, and if you were to do so I would suggest sticking in a SP to give them all FC and FNP...

Could you compromise taking the termi armour off? That way you could add him to a normal assault marine unit to make them pretty nasty. If your looking at dreadnoughts, I just did some math hammer for blood talons. In short, I'm fairly confident that they could one turn 10 MEQ's in CC. Take the Furioso Dreadnought and give it Wings of Sanguinius and Unleash Rage for something really, really disgusting...

Anyways, this is nice little 1,000pts...

HQ: Librarian, Sword and Unleash Rage- 100

TR: 6 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist, Rhino- 153 
TR: 6 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Melta Bomb, Powerfist, Rhino- 158
TR: 6 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Melta Bomb Rhino- 133

FA: Baal Predator, Heavy Flamers - 140
FA: Baal Predator - 115

HS: Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Spot Light 101 
HS: Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons 100

1,000

How can the Furioso Dreadnoughts have psychic powers when they're not Librarians? You missed the 50 point Librarian upgrade off....

@mercer: A school boy error... its been corrected.

No worries man. FYI Furiosos with blood talons rule.

Ok, so im starting to write the list, couple questions:

Does it work at all to have a HQ like this:

Reclusiatch + jump pack + melta bombs + inferno pistol
plus
5 man Honour Guard with jump packs + melta bombs + for example power weapons

If i would like to have Death Company and Death Company Dread with bloo talons, should i go with 5 man squad in razor or 10 man in rhino ?

Sorry for noob questions, but trying to get the grip on it all