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scubasteve04 wrote:I didn't know it was so easy for run of the mill grey knights to insta-gib stuff. I thought the force attack happens on a failed leadership check or something. It just seems really stacked against Tyranids.

They should change the name to codex:Tyranidhunters.

No, force weapons go off if the model with the force weapons successfully wounds and then passes his leadership.

jy2 wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:I didn't know it was so easy for run of the mill grey knights to insta-gib stuff. I thought the force attack happens on a failed leadership check or something. It just seems really stacked against Tyranids.

They should change the name to codex:Tyranidhunters.

No, force weapons go off if the model with the force weapons successfully wounds and then passes his leadership.

They are fore weapons that deal instant death. In Addition, they also have Daemonbane, which means any Psyker or Daemon wounded takes a LD check, and if they Fail then they are removed from the table, ignoring Eternal Warrior.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

carmachu wrote:Wow, it sucks to be a tyranid player now with grey knights. One wound, one psychic test, one dead 4 to 6 wound creature your paying 200+ points for.

Ugh.

Good thing I run a horde list... y'know, the build that the codex is basically built for.

Uh, bad news for you. Wait til you play against the Purifier Grey Knights. I didn't take them in this battle, but they are just horde killers and arguably one of the best units in the grey knight army. Unfortunately, you'll going to see them in spades in pure grey knight lists.

'Nids are going to have to be selective with GKs on how to deal with them.

In a KP game, this is going to be nigh impossible for a 'Nid player with this army set up to win. Feeding him MCs is going to be bad strategy as each MC that comes within assault distance is going to be a dead MC.

Long range firepower (relatively speaking) for 'Nids is going to be key. Lots of shots to bury the opponent with, wrapping Gants around MCs so that their investments don't get mutilated in CC.

Of course that assumes a GK player is playing a purist's list. Mixed bag Henchmen/GK is going to be a bit easier for 'Nids, though not by much.

It's going to come down to ranged power, and Volume of attacks.

Every Army keeps putting more Nails in the coffin of MC Nid lists. First Dark Eldar Poisoned weapons, and now GK force weapons.

I've found more and more, I prefer a much more mobile Army. Wings, Gargoyles, Ravaners. They have all worked out fantastically for me.

Purifiers are still my biggest worry however, they can drop squads down with little issue.

You played the Force Weapons correctly in this game (thank you for sharing). The key step people forget when examining wounds is the 'remove casualties' step.

The sequence would go...
1 - Allocate wounds to individual models
2 - Roll saves for each unique wound group (1 group for fexes, no saves possible)
3 - The GK inflicted an unsaved wound, test for Force Weapon activation
4 - Remove casualties on a wound group basis - Follow the ID rules for removing casualties which requires you to remove whole models if possible. In this case a complete Carnifex for each FW wound.

jy2 wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

carmachu wrote:Wow, it sucks to be a tyranid player now with grey knights. One wound, one psychic test, one dead 4 to 6 wound creature your paying 200+ points for.

Ugh.

Good thing I run a horde list... y'know, the build that the codex is basically built for.

Uh, bad news for you. Wait til you play against the Purifier Grey Knights. I didn't take them in this battle, but they are just horde killers and arguably one of the best units in the grey knight army. Unfortunately, you'll going to see them in spades in pure grey knight lists.

Yeah I was just referring to the force weapons. I'm not looking forward to Purifiers, I was kinda hoping you'd include them in this list so I could get an idea of how brutal they are. I'm still trying to figure out how to defeat those... maybe SiTW, FNP, Venomthropes (so that if they get the charge the Purifiers will have to roll dangerous terrain tests) and so on.

@WarOne:

Very good insight. I agree 100%. My list would have incorporated more biovores for some long-range bombardment. They are a great unit against any infantry on foot, as they will kill by volume of wounds. That's why I dedicated 2 full turns of shooting from my interceptors to wipe them out.

Henchmen-based GK lists would definitely be easier to handle. My current nids can handle MSU-mech armies. It's the pure grey knights that'll probably give them trouble.


@Sasori:

While fast nids will probably do a little better against a pure knight list, they will still suffer from the same fate as assault nids: chasing vehicles or getting killed by knights in combat. The only difference is that they will survive shooting better as there are less turns to shoot them.


@Calyptos:

Yeah, that's how I thought force weapons should be played. Thanks for confirming for me.


@Andilus:

The best way to kill purifiers is by shooting them to death. That's done easily enough with dakkarants/dakkafexes/biovores. People need to snap out of the mentality that nids can only kill through assault. Yes, they are good at that, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. Against any unit good in assault, you need to wittle them down first...with shooting.

The way to beat the new grey knights is not by assaulting them, but by shooting them down.

few thoughts for jy2

-remember that biovores spawn a mine EVERY TIME THEY MISS, this is their primary strength that many people overlook.

fast nids are doable with support, a unit of gargoyles with feel no pain won't suffer "too many" casualities (maybe 20%) from flames, and they would be primarly for hunting the 5 man, 4 psycannon combat squads that will be in every purifier list.

shadows is vital, I really want to consider warriors but autocannon dreads are really really vicious.

I think you ahve the right idea to peck away at them, biovores, devourer gaunts maybe, genestealers with adrenals maybe, its hard to do the tyranid "surround and overwhelm" strategy with the army is so small and has so much power in each individual unit.

Yeah, spore mines are great, but in my experience, they don't appear that often. The shots have to scatter at least 6" from any model in the unit. I usually run 6 biovores and in a typical game, I only produce 1-3 clusters of mines from missed shots all game.

I also like gargoyles as a screening, tarpitting unit. They could work to delay a unit or 2 for a turn or so, though I probably wouldn't count on them reaching any unit the savvy GK general doesn't want them to.

While warriors have Shadows, I can't really recommend them against GK because of exactly the unit that you mentioned - GK psyfleman dreads. A GK list without dreads is like a tyranid list without hive guards....you just won't see a balanced GK list without them very often.

Don't force weapons count as using a psy power? If so can a unit of GKs only activate once and only if they didn't use a power already?

jy2 wrote:
I also like gargoyles as a screening, tarpitting unit. They could work to delay a unit or 2 for a turn or so, though I probably wouldn't count on them reaching any unit the savvy GK general doesn't want them to.

I think thats the trick, your little bugs need to survive the initial assault of "whatever" and if the unit is still tied up on your turn, you can pile in your "vulnerable" MC's to wipe out the small GK unit without taking any force weapon wounds.

I dont think its impossible, but the GK player needs to be outplayed or roll poorly to lose.

the doom in a pod seems like a reasonable option for a cheap way of softening up multiple GK units as well as providing an on-the-spot shadows of the warp for an assault on purifiers.

Great discussion and a really, really good bat rep.

Thanks for sharing.

hyv3mynd wrote:Don't force weapons count as using a psy power? If so can a unit of GKs only activate once and only if they didn't use a power already?

Yes they do. That's why for normal squads, it's either hammerhand or force weapon, but not both. Thus, every time I use my force weapon, I'm attacking at only S4 and wounding his MC's on 6's.

However, IC's attached to a unit may use an additional power besides hammerhand. That is because hammerhand affects the entire unit. Thus, what you should do is have your IC cast hammerhand to give the entire squad +1S. Then your grey knights are free to still use their force weapons.

Remember, you only need to take 1 psychic test to activate all the force weapons in that 1 unit (not including IC's, who need to take their own psychic test to activate their force weapons).

Grundz wrote:
the doom in a pod seems like a reasonable option for a cheap way of softening up multiple GK units as well as providing an on-the-spot shadows of the warp for an assault on purifiers.

Which is why I believe every balanced GK list needs at least 2 strike squads (or 2 strike combat-squads)....to protect against these type of units. If you don't have deepstriking defense, then daemons, drop podding/DoA melta-units and other deepstriking armies can take you out.

It is a MUST for having deepstriking defense. Grey Knights are very lucky in that they are the first and only army to get it (not counting IG officers of the fleet).

I've been trying to come up with good All comers lists, for the GK trouble we are Facing, here is the best I could come up with right now.

HQ: Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2x Scytals, Old Adversary

Elites: 3x Hive Guard

Elites: 3x Hive Guard

Elites: 3x Hive Guard

Troops: Tervigon, Catalyst, AD, Toxin

Troops: Tervigon, Catalyst, AD, Toxin

Troops Termagaunts x10

Troops: Termagaunts x10

Fast Attack: Gargoyles x26 AD, Toxin

Fast Attack: Gargoyles x26 AD, Toxin

Heavy Support: 3x Biovores

Heavy Support: 3x Biovores

Heavy Support: Tyrannofex, Rupture


Personally, I've never liked using the Tyrannofex, but the other options for Heavy Anti-Tank that I used to use, like Trygons, are getting more useless by the day. This list seems to be ok.

You can of course substitute some Gargs for more upgrades on say a Tyrant, but I usually either run him with Duel Scytals, or Duel Devourers.

JY2, how do you think Typical GK lists would fare against that? You have experience on both sides of the fence, which is much more than I can for myself.

(Don't mean to derail your thread at all, this just seems like a really good place to talk with people about experience in the upcoming GK VS Tyranid battles, that are sure to happen)

No problem. The purpose of this post is to evaluate how tyranids match up to the new GK. I don't mind talking about tactica and list building as it pertains to how tyranids can better take on the new GK's.

Your list could definitely be effective against the knights. As a matter of fact, with hive guards, tyranids matches up well as mechanized GK. The problem is when you face foot knights. Tyranids have a very ironic problem. Whereas most other armies would have trouble against mechanized GK and an easier time against foot knights, Tyranids are just the opposite. It's not easy, but it's definitely doable.

IMO, swarms can still take on a foot knight army, even one with purifiers. You just need to make sure you cast catalyst on the hordes (i.e. gargoyles in your case). Cleansing flame will kill off about 12-13 models from a 30-model tyranid horde. FNP will reduce that to only 6-7 models and allow the horde to do much damage in return. Also, if you keep a Shadows unit nearby (your flyrant for the gargoyles), you decrease their chance of getting Cleansing Flame off dramatically. The only concern in your case is keeping your flyrant alive. Massed stormbolters and psycannons will bring him down quickly, and if you FNP him, that means you will probably lose 10-12 of your non-FNP'd gargoyles from each unit of grey knights that fire at them in 1 turn of shooting.

Besides the HQ and gargoyles, your list is very similar to mine. I also use a tyrannofex and 6 biovores as they are needed in a shooty, all-comer's list. But give your flyrant (or in my case, walkrant) dual twin-linked devourers and he will do much, much more damage (assuming he survives GK fire).


This is what I was going to bring against the knights (as a matter of fact, this is almost the exact same army I used here):


Hive Tyrant - 2x TL-Devourers, Old Adversary
1x Tyrant Guard w/Lash Whips
Hive Tyrant - 2x TL-Devourers, Old Adversary
1x Tyrant Guard w/Lash Whips

3x Hive Guards
3x Hive Guards
2x Hive Guards

Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Toxin Sacs
12x Termagants
Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Toxin Sacs
11x Termagants

3x Biovores
3x Biovores
Tyrannofex - Cluster Spines, Dessicator Larvae, Rupture Cannon


I was planning on shooting the grey knights to death. They die just as easily as any other marine army when it comes to shooting. The lack of hordes on my list means that I don't really have to worry too much against purifiers. To me, they are just over-costed marines that die just like any other.

from what ive heard and seen swarmlord is becoming the way to go hes going up the rankings in fear in my book.

Swarmy is a very good tyranid HQ. However, he has to be used properly. Don't expect to use him as purely an assault unit. Rather, he is a force multiplier, making the entire tyranid army better as a whole. He is slow so don't expect any action from him until the later rounds. However, as a counter-assault deterrent, he is just awesomesauce. I like him in my shooty army as he protects the army against enemy assault units. Thus, this lets the rest of my army shoot virtually unmolested.

Yeah, I usually Run my flyrant with twin Linked Devourers, and luckily it's easy enough to shift around some points to grab them.

Thanks for the Advice, JY2, I'm actually pretty eager to try this new list out now.

Hope to see you turn the tables, and take on the GKs with your Nids!

svendrex wrote:
They are fore weapons that deal instant death. In Addition, they also have Daemonbane, which means any Psyker or Daemon wounded takes a LD check, and if they Fail then they are removed from the table, ignoring Eternal Warrior.

Wait, what now? GK don't even need to bother with a Psychic Test to ID Daemons, each and every one of them carries a Warp-users-only Bonesword (that doesn't need to worry about Daemons having ward saves because a Vindicare has magic bullets that make Daemons permanently take on physical form)? And Ward thought they needed a Landmate to deal with anything bigger than a Beast of Nurgle?

Sorry to digress, but

On a more relevant note, good report. I've yet to get Tervigons and Termagants built, but I can see they're going to be very useful.

Actually, it doesn't quite work that way for the vindicare. His shield-breaker round only remove invuln saves "granted by items of wargear". Daemonic invulns are not from wargear so no, we cannot remove Fateweaver's invuln by shooting him.

Troop tervigons are great. While not everyone uses them, most competitive, tournament armies do. That's because effectiveness of a unit is not always measured by how much it can kill. For proof, check out the KFF big meks, null zone librarians, sanguinary priests and any marine HQ with chapter tactics. Tervigons are one of the best force-multiplier units in the tyranid army.

Grey Knight's Str5 and Str8 shooting makes Tau look weak in comparison. And having almost everyone equipped with standard force weapons makes Grey Knights really versatile in assault.


Good battle report jy2. I look forward to the classic match up between the new Grey Knights vs. rival Daemons.

> Vindicare

Ah, I getcha.

> Tervi
> effectiveness of a unit is not always measured by how much it can kill

I'm already of the opinion that Damage Per Point bean-counting is mostly a fool's errand, and much more concerned with things like synergy and controlling the battlefield; it probably comes from my avid Street Fighter background. (For instance, I don't care if Whirlwinds or Kommandoz fail to kill a thing, so long as they force my opponent to make the moves I want them to make.)

Hence my loving 5E Tyranids, for all their many flaws

I feel like the nid army build was a poor pick against GK.
I would have ran more of a horde than a bunch of monstrous creatures that can be insta killed.

owell i was wrong lol

As a quick review of 'Nid tactics - I feel your friend's biggest mistake was sending the termagants wave after wave vs the dreadknight. His focus could better have been spent trying to hit your "squishier" units (though GK are NOT very squishy). Swarmlord vs Dreadknight seems like a better matchup in my opinion, especially if the T.Guard have lash whips.

Good game overall, every time a new book comes out it seems to trounce 'nids but I have a great time noodling out new tactics in the meantime.

Very good read, it seemed like the tervigons were just feeding you KP's. I am really interested to see the game vs demons.

tetrisphreak wrote:As a quick review of 'Nid tactics - I feel your friend's biggest mistake was sending the termagants wave after wave vs the dreadknight. His focus could better have been spent trying to hit your "squishier" units (though GK are NOT very squishy). Swarmlord vs Dreadknight seems like a better matchup in my opinion, especially if the T.Guard have lash whips.

right, the swarmlord should "trounce" the dreadknight with instant death before it gets a swing off.

Lord_Osma wrote:I feel like the nid army build was a poor pick against GK.
I would have ran more of a horde than a bunch of monstrous creatures that can be insta killed.

I think the Nid army was build towards take-all comers rather than tailored for GK. Perhaps Doom of Malan'tai, more Biovores, and fat squad of 30 Termagants rather than 10 would have been better?

RE NFWs instant killing all the Carnifexes. Best way I got my head around this was to reflect that I wouldn't expect a Guard player to remove one Ogryn for every three wounds my Swarmlord inflicts on the unit because 'those three wounds are allocated onto three identical models and then combined onto one individual model', so it'd be churlish of me to complain when my own multi wound unit, despite being far more robust against lasguns than Ogryns, happens to share this weakness.

But then, that is with a single CC attack that automatically causes ID. NFW's have to be activated, and that raises the question - particularly pertinent when multi-wound units with variable I are running around - of exactly when the test is made and exactly when the wounds turn fatal.

Which is indeed a YMDC issue, which I've posted here.