multiple force weapon attacks against a unit of multi wound models

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**Grey Templar**

normally yes, but GKs take the test as a squad and as such if they have different inititive steps the lower I attacks will automatically be ID before they roll to wound or even hit.

its a moot point with the deamonhammer as it is most likely causing ID anyway, but with Halbards vs Swords/Falchions it is important.

**kirsanth**

Grey Templar wrote:normally yes, but GKs take the test as a squad and as such if they have different inititive steps the lower I attacks will automatically be ID before they roll to wound or even hit.

Not at all.

Wounded models suffer ID after the test is made. Force weapons themselves do not cause ID wounds.

Editing to add:
Going only by main rules page 50.

**Grey Templar**

the GK codex adds some things on to those main rules.

**kirsanth**

I figured as much, but from what is posted it still does not read as asserted.

Do GK Force Weapons cause ID or do they simply test as a unit?

Unless the Force Weapon rules themselves are adjusted, FW do not cause ID wounds. They cause ID in models after they are wounded.

There is a substantial difference.

**Kumorikage**

Edit: I was wrong. Pg 26 BRB tells how to do it.

**kirsanth**

Kumorikage wrote:Because of the order in which you do this, the game doesn't check to see which wounds are capable of causing ID until after they are allocated, because they don't cause instant death until after they are allocated.

If the wounds themselves do, there is a check--ID wounds must remove whole models. (Where possible)
If ID can be caused in a model that was previously wounded, there is not.

**nosferatu1001**

"If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the squad that phase cause Instant death"

It significantly changes the way the rules for FW work, in the only way possible when you are using a FW across one squad who only count as a single psyker....

Kumorikage - see the above. Your method would be true, except that the GK make FW work differently.

4 Warriors would be lost if 4 wounds are caused.

**Redemption**

nosferatu1001 wrote:"If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the squad that phase cause Instant death"

It significantly changes the way the rules for FW work, in the only way possible when you are using a FW across one squad who only count as a single psyker....

Kumorikage - see the above. Your method would be true, except that the GK make FW work differently.

4 Warriors would be lost if 4 wounds are caused.

Except you can still only activate the weapons after unsaved wounds have been caused, which would be after wound allocation. See my example on the previous page.

**nosferatu1001**

Wound allocation still requires you to remove whole models where unsaved wounds would cause ID

So you cause a wound; immediately take test and pass; wound now caused ID and requires you to remove a whole model

Given all models are identical you are required to pool the wounds.

Still 4 warriors removed. Even if your view were correct it still doesnt account for different I values.

**kirsanth**

Excellent.

Good to know.

(Sort of)

**Redemption**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Wound allocation still requires you to remove whole models where unsaved wounds would cause ID

So you cause a wound; immediately take test and pass; wound now caused ID and requires you to remove a whole model

Given all models are identical you are required to pool the wounds.

Still 4 warriors removed. Even if your view were correct it still doesnt account for different I values.

Hmm, reread the BRB entry, seems you are indeed correct. Poor Warriors. :(

**Jidmah**

Redemption wrote:It seems quirky, yes, as you need an unsaved wound to be able to make the psychic test, and unsaved wounds are indeed after wound allocation and saves are done. But on the other hand, if you have different Initiative values in the squad, you take the test after the first unsaved wounds have been caused. All wounds caused from there on inflict Instant Death before allocation it seems.

So, say you have the following Purifier squad, which seems like a popular build:
Knight of the Flame with Daemonhammer
5 Purifiers with Halberds
4 Purifiers with Psycannons/Incinerators/Psilencers

Now, this squad attacks a unit of 10 equally equipped multiwound T5 models, which have 3 wounds each. We'll disregard wounds inflicted by this squad for this example.
The Purifiers with the Halberds strike first, and after their To Hit and To Wound (and possible invulnerable saves), they managed to inflict 7 wounds. As these are yet to be activated, the opposing player removes 2 models and places the remaining wound on one of the remaining models. The Purifiers take a psychic test to activate their Nemesis weapons, which they pass. The model which has a wound on him now suffers Instant Death and is removed.
The 4 purifiers with the heavy ranged weapons strike next, and manage to inflict another 2 wounds after armour saves. These are put on a model.
Finally the Knight of the Flame swings his Daemonhammer and manages to inflict two wounds. As the Nemesis weapons are already activated, both wounds inflict Instant Death, and the opposing player has to remove 2 unwounded models.

So in total 5 models are killed, and one is left with one wound remaining. If the squad of multiwound models were all equiped differently, they would have 9 casualties.

Yay for finally something that better against unique equipped multi-wound models I guess?

This is not quite right, you mixed up "assigning wounds" and "removing casualties". First, you must assign a wound to each model in a unit before a second one can put on any model. This does not change for multi-wound models. After a wound becomes an unsaved wound you may activate your force weapon(same window in which FNP is rolled), if you don't it's a regular wound and you start taking wounds of a model until it dies and proceed to the next one. If you do activate, all wounds of the GK squad become ID and multi-wound rules tells us to remove one unwounded model for each unsave ID wound. So the first seven wounds would cause seven models to be removed.

You would still kill as many unique equipped models, so nemesis weapon are as good against them as they are against equally equipped models.

edit: Duh. didn't see page two...

**mukslinger**

On the flip side, if these force weapons work this way: so do boneswords and for that matter daemon soul devourer. The wording is identicle in gaming terms, the only real difference is who is making the leadership roll.

My opponants tell me to stack wounds on models, remove models, and if anything is left alive after that, roll the leadership and see if it gets an instant death effect. IE, if my bonesword warriors attack a unit of raveners who have 3 wounds each, and my warriors cause 4 wounds. 1 ravener is removed, another ravener gets 1 wound and rolls leadership to see if he dies.

It would be awsome, if i can prove that the leadership tests take place before removing casualties and the instant death effect has to be given to an unwounded model in the unit first.

**nosferatu1001**

Mukslinger - the wording isnt identical, as each bonesword only gets one special attack. A GK squad gets them all.

**kirsanth**

Just because I do not think it deserves a new thread, am I reading a post correctly? The first initiative step of the NFW would still have to be allocated normally for Force Weapons? It is once that occurs that all they all become ID wounds?

**Aramoro**

Wounding with NFW happens like this

Roll to Wound
Opponent allocates the wounds to each model
Rolls saves for each model
You then Roll to Activate your Nemesis Force Weapon as you have caused an unsaved wound (this is the same step as FnP etc)
You opponent now allocates the Unsaved wounds your models to to identically armed models, removing whole models for ID if applicable.

It's those last two steps that everyone gets confused, the models that fail the saves don't take the wounds, that just gives you the pile of unsaved wounds. You then apply the unsaved wounds to the models in the group that failed the saves.

**nosferatu1001**

Kirsanth - remove casualties, which is where ID kicks in, is AFTER you allocate wounds and take saves.

You allocate wounds, group into identical groups, take saves and remove models / wounds at this point. ID kicks in after you cause an unsaved wound, which is BEFORE removing models, and as such is after allocation.

However, if you have a unit of identical wearriors, or at least 1 wound caused for every warrior in the unit, then it doesnt matter:

3 wounds on 3 normal warriors, 1 on the heavy warrior

Group wounds together

Make saves -> cannot make saves

*GK make check* -> all wounds now cause ID

Remove 1 wound for each unsaved wound - > ID kicks in and forces you to remove a model for each wound caused.

Result: all warriors are STILL dead.

**kirsanth**

Right, right.

This is why I usually just look things up.

Nothing to see here. . . .

**Corbett**

would a NFW work against something that is immune to ID or better yet something that is Immune to pyschic powers or abilities? Like Lady Malys in the Dark Eldar codex?

**nosferatu1001**

It would not bypass EW, as EW specifically negates Instant Death

Lady Malys would not bypass it, as it is making wounds cause instant death, it is not a psychic power that directly cause instant death

**mukslinger**

nosferatu1001 - how is the bonesword any different? with respect to the sequence of events and how to apply the rules in general?

what people seem to be saying here is: each model gets allocated a wound before they can get a second, even in a multi-wound unit. the fact that the saves are done in a group and casualties are removed by taking off whole models first, is irrelevant. these models still have suffered an unsaved wound.

so therefore, if grey knights do 4 wounds on a group of 8 raveners, 4 raveners have an unsaved wound on them, grey knights test their leadership and if the test succeeds, the raveners suffer 4 instant death effects and 4 unwounded raveners die as casualties are removed.

if this was boneswords, would it not read: bonesword warriors do 4 wounds to a group of 8 raveners, 4 raveners have an unsaved wound on them, leadership is taken on those 4 raveners, for each failure the raveners suffer an instant death effect, lets say 4 failures. so the raveners suffer 4 instant death effects and 4 unwounded raveners die as casualties are removed.

the only other alternative interpretation to either the nfw or bonesword using the examples above, is that the check is made after you remove casualties in which case both the nfw and bonesword would work like this: 4 wounds done to the raveners, 1 ravener would be removed and 1 ravener might suffer instant death (nfw: the grey nights succeed their leadership test) or (bonesword: the ravener fails his leadership test)

like I said, the nfw and bonesword are nearly identicle in gaming terms. what works for one, has to work for the other, they both make the check at the same time. who makes the check is the only real difference.

**nosferatu1001**

That ISNT what people are saying.

You allocate wound(ing hits, to show the distinction)
Group wounds into groups of like models
Makes saves
Remove models

So while you may allocate 4 wounds to 4 models, each model does NOT automatically "suffer" an unsaved wound - they take them in sequence

**mukslinger**

the brb in several locations indicate that wounds are indeed suffered: invulnerable save section. "an invulnerable save may always be taken whenever the model suffers a wound". allocating wounds to multiwound models: "suffered wounds are allocated..."

if you take them in sequence, like you suggest, the bonesword rule would work like this: apply one wound to a ravener, take a leadership test. if failed the raveners suffer an instant death effect. if passed remove a wound, apply the next wound, it has suffered an unsaved wound, roll leadership, etc, etc. And, still the end result will be the same, pretend the 4 wounds fail consequtively: apply a bonesword wound, roll leadership, fail and remove a model, apply a wound, roll leadership, fail and remove a model. the end result will still be 4 raveners dead from bonesword attacks with failed leadership rolls.

both the nfw and bonesword effect triggers when a model suffers an unsaved wound. no matter how you cut it, the check is made at the same timing for both the nfw and bonesword. who makes the check is irrelevant, how many checks are made are also irrelevant.

so which ever way it is ruled for the forceweapons, the boneswords will follow. I'm just interested in what the decision is, lol.

**wildboar**

nosferatu1001 wrote:It would not bypass EW, as EW specifically negates Instant Death

Lady Malys would not bypass it, as it is making wounds cause instant death, it is not a psychic power that directly cause instant death

Page 50 of the brb (Force Weapons sub box)

'They have the same effect as Power Weapons, but also confer to the wielder one additional psychic power, used in close combat'

The Force Weapon is a pyschic power, applied through a weapon (sword, mace or hammer etc) Therefore Lady Malys and her squad would be immune.

**kirsanth**

wildboar wrote:Page 50 of the brb (Force Weapons sub box)

'They have the same effect as Power Weapons, but also confer to the wielder one additional psychic power, used in close combat'

The Force Weapon is a pyschic power, applied through a weapon (sword, mace or hammer etc) Therefore Lady Malys and her squad would be immune.

Lady Malys is immune to you using a psychic power on your weapon?

**nosferatu1001**

Wildboar - erm, no. Same as she isnt immune to you using hammer hand to make your hits harder, you making your wounds all ID causing is NOT in itself a psychic power targetting her unit.

She is immune to powers that target her unit, NOT powers that target your unit.

**wildboar**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Wildboar - erm, no. Same as she isnt immune to you using hammer hand to make your hits harder, you making your wounds all ID causing is NOT in itself a psychic power targetting her unit.

She is immune to powers that target her unit, NOT powers that target your unit.

They are armed with Force Weapons. As detailed in previous post Force Weapons are pyschic powers.

Therefore Lady Malys (and her squad) are immune.

**nosferatu1001**

No, they are (special) CCW. If you reread your quote you will notice they *confer* an additional pyschic power. They are not, themselves, the psychic power.

Therefore they are NOT immune

**wildboar**

Kharn the Betrayer has complete Immunity from Pyschic Powers that render Force Weapons as normal Power Weapons. I'd like to know the difference between the two.

Plus you are also required to sacrifice the casting of a pyshic power in that turn to use your Force Weapons 'power'.

**nosferatu1001**

His rules specifically state that he treats FW as normal power weapons. Thats one big difference for a start.

Id like you to address the point I raised above, where you erroneously have decided that FW are psychic powers. Please, prove it or accept it isnt true.