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Vaktathi wrote:They also tend to get killed due to being IC's and having to attempt to make it into contact first, with their low Init they are often killed off before they do anything, and their special rule does nothing except on a turn that you charge. If they were an upgrade character, and if they could be used with Ogryns, they might be useful, but alas

It is so easy to keep priest out of close combat if you don't want them in close combat. This is only a problem for people who don't know how to use priests.

Agree with whoever said Death Company Tycho, he's a free kill point that can't fight much better than someone who can hide in a unit with really nothing to justify taking him.

But I seriously disagree that storm troopers are useless, they have lots of uses if people will stop using them like veterans.

Mandrakes and Kherudruagh. The first is a dedicated assault unit with T3 and a single ordinary CCW and no assault grenades, that can only shoot if it kills something. The other is a Marbo that's twice as expensive but lacks the sole redeeming feature Marbo has: the demo pack.

Kurb wrote:Death Company Tycho

On the contrary sir, I've fielded Death Company Tycho a number of times and had him perform much better than expected.

I'll add the Blood Angels Techmarine. I don't ever see a situation where i'd want to use a Techmarine in place of a Furioso Dread, Chaplain, or preferably, Sanguinary Priest. I tried really hard to look through my BA dex and find something bad, this is all I could come up with.

EmilCrane wrote:
But I seriously disagree that storm troopers are useless, they have lots of uses if people will stop using them like veterans.

Aside from suicide min sized melta delivery system, what do they do the other units can't do better and/or cheaper?

Vaktathi wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:
But I seriously disagree that storm troopers are useless, they have lots of uses if people will stop using them like veterans.

Aside from suicide min sized melta delivery system, what do they do the other units can't do better and/or cheaper?

They deliver firepower where you need it when you need it. Your opponent can see vets coming, he can't see storm troopers coming.

Vaktathi wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:
But I seriously disagree that storm troopers are useless, they have lots of uses if people will stop using them like veterans.

Aside from suicide min sized melta delivery system, what do they do the other units can't do better and/or cheaper?

I don't know about cheaper, but better is obvious. There are several things that stormies can do that other things can't, including...

- Hitting anywhere on the board. No minimum ranges, no LOS restrictions. You point and click, anywhere on the board.

- BS4 multiple direct shot weapons. Unless you're rocking the manticore, other options have only one big shot per turn. Having multiple shots at BS4 makes them better at what they do in many circumstances.

- Invincibility. Your opponent can't shoot your stormies before they arrive. They can't assault them before they do damage. Heck, they can barely even move to block them. Stormies don't have to put up with your opponent doing stuff before they arrive and make their kill.

- Options. Sure, airborne assault is the best option, but it's not the only option. Being able to outflank or infiltrate are also good abilities sometimes, depending on the opponent and the mission. Not so for most other things.

Stormies may cost a lot, for guard units, but they are a class act. The only thing that comes close is marbo, and even then, the two do different things.

EmilCrane wrote:

They deliver firepower where you need it when you need it. Your opponent can see vets coming, he can't see storm troopers coming.

Aside from when you tell him "these are being held in reserve to Deep Strike/Outflank"?

When used like that, they generally need to be full sized, meaning they cost as much as a Space Marine unit, without the survivability or CC capability, and while when facing MEQ units (what they seem designed to hunt and generally what costs as much as they do) they are merely on par in terms of inflicting casualties on each other with bolters vs T3 4+ and Hotshots vs T4, and if cover comes into play, the ST's lose out badly.

I'll take a LRBT with a battlecannon in that case. My opponent may see it coming, but unless I can't see the unit (and with TLoS its very rare that I can't see *something*), I can hit it, and I don't need to put a nearly 200pt T3 4+sv infantry squad into prime rapid fire/assault range.

Radical_Edward wrote:

Kurb wrote:Death Company Tycho

On the contrary sir, I've fielded Death Company Tycho a number of times and had him perform much better than expected.

I'll add the Blood Angels Techmarine. I don't ever see a situation where i'd want to use a Techmarine in place of a Furioso Dread, Chaplain, or preferably, Sanguinary Priest. I tried really hard to look through my BA dex and find something bad, this is all I could come up with.

Yeah, Techmarines/Iron Priests (for us Space Wolves players) aren't very good in general.

Vaktathi wrote: they cost as much as a Space Marine unit, without the survivability or CC capability, and while when facing MEQ units (what they seem designed to hunt and generally what costs as much as they do) they are merely on par in terms of inflicting casualties on each other with bolters vs T3 4+ and Hotshots vs T4, and if cover comes into play, the ST's lose out badly.

I'll take a LRBT with a battlecannon in that case.

If you're looking at stormtroopers only for their damage:cost ratio, you're entirely missing the point of stormtroopers.

Vaktathi wrote:Aside from when you tell him "these are being held in reserve to Deep Strike/Outflank"?

When used like that, they generally need to be full sized, meaning they cost as much as a Space Marine unit, without the survivability or CC capability, and while when facing MEQ units (what they seem designed to hunt and generally what costs as much as they do) they are merely on par in terms of inflicting casualties on each other with bolters vs T3 4+ and Hotshots vs T4, and if cover comes into play, the ST's lose out badly.

I'll take a LRBT with a battlecannon in that case. My opponent may see it coming, but unless I can't see the unit (and with TLoS its very rare that I can't see *something*), I can hit it, and I don't need to put a nearly 200pt T3 4+sv infantry squad into prime rapid fire/assault range.

feel free not to use them bro, but there are much worse options than Storm troopers

Like Mogul kamir

EmilCrane wrote:

feel free not to use them bro, but there are much worse options than Storm troopers

Like Mogul kamir

Kamir isn't really his own unit, he's an upgrade character. I won't argue with you that he's garbage, but he's also not required to field RR's.

Ailaros wrote:
If you're looking at stormtroopers only for their damage:cost ratio, you're entirely missing the point of stormtroopers.

Could you elaborate? I understand there is a value to being able to come in and hit a hard to reach spot before an enemy can harm the unit. However this is not a problem given that IG can accomplish much the same result as a result of TLoS, having huge numbers of long ranged ordnance and barrage weapons, and Valkyries/Vendettas, and without having to risk a fragile infantry unit that costs more than most Space Marine squads (which also generally happen to be much more capable), or at least only having to risk a much cheaper one.

I don't understand why Chaos Dreadnoughts and Carnifexes are coming up here. Chaos Dreads are unpredictable, but can still wreck house as well as any dreadnought for slightly fewer points. Carnifexes are nowhere near as good as they used to be, but are still big scary mofos. Trygons are flat out better in almost all situations, but Fexes still have some utility.

Brother SRM wrote:I don't understand why Chaos Dreadnoughts and Carnifexes are coming up here. Chaos Dreads are unpredictable, but can still wreck house as well as any dreadnought for slightly fewer points. Carnifexes are nowhere near as good as they used to be, but are still big scary mofos. Trygons are flat out better in almost all situations, but Fexes still have some utility.

Agreed, they're overcosted, but regardless they can still put out a world of hurt. There have been a few people rattling off units like that that aren't necessarily "awful".

Brother SRM wrote:I don't understand why Chaos Dreadnoughts and Carnifexes are coming up here. Chaos Dreads are unpredictable, but can still wreck house as well as any dreadnought for slightly fewer points. Carnifexes are nowhere near as good as they used to be, but are still big scary mofos. Trygons are flat out better in almost all situations, but Fexes still have some utility.

Primarily because they don't do what you want them to do 33% of the time and pose a risk to your own units, as well as not having any way to get up close quickly like loyalist dreads do with pods. Loyalist CC dreads also tend to be AV13 now, not 12.

I'd like to add my vote to the mandrakes...and Kherudruagh is even worse than Castellan Crowe...I've spent hours trying to figure out a way to make him work, and he just doesn't. Even if he only cost half the points he would still be horrible.

Vaktathi wrote:

Ailaros wrote:If you're looking at stormtroopers only for their damage:cost ratio, you're entirely missing the point of stormtroopers.

Could you elaborate?

Sure:

Ailaros wrote:- Hitting anywhere on the board. No minimum ranges, no LOS restrictions. You point and click, anywhere on the board.

- BS4 multiple direct shot weapons. Unless you're rocking the manticore, other options have only one big shot per turn. Having multiple shots at BS4 makes them better at what they do in many circumstances.

- Invincibility. Your opponent can't shoot your stormies before they arrive. They can't assault them before they do damage. Heck, they can barely even move to block them. Stormies don't have to put up with your opponent doing stuff before they arrive and make their kill.

- Options. Sure, airborne assault is the best option, but it's not the only option. Being able to outflank or infiltrate are also good abilities sometimes, depending on the opponent and the mission. Not so for most other things.

Oh, and I'd also like to add noise marines. No USR, a poor quality CC ability and a poor quality shooty ability for HOW much?

Nobody has mentioned Eldar rangers... which is odd

24 points per model for an upgraded SNIPER RIFLE, and a 2+ cover save.

Sniper Rifles are bad for a variety of reasons, flamers and fast assault units are more common then ever, and needing to pay 24 points a model on top of that is just painful...

Regular rangers? Yeah. I mean, at least pathfinders get the 5 or 6 rends thing that actually makes them... well... like all sniper rifles SHOULD be...

I go with Swooping Hawks. They have a mediocre gun, mediocre CC ability against infantry, and mediocre CC against vehicles.There are so many units in the Eldar codex that do better than them at what they do: I prefer the Spiders' gun, Banshees and Scorpions to hit infantry, and Fire Prisms or Dragons to hit tanks. There is nothing that Hawks can do that another unit can't do better.

Brother SRM wrote:I don't understand why Chaos Dreadnoughts and Carnifexes are coming up here. Chaos Dreads are unpredictable, but can still wreck house as well as any dreadnought for slightly fewer points. Carnifexes are nowhere near as good as they used to be, but are still big scary mofos. Trygons are flat out better in almost all situations, but Fexes still have some utility.

The only reason I can see for Carnifexes is a combination of them not being as good as they were in 4th, being a over costed by about 20 points, and people not having decent terrain. TLOS made it hard to hide something as big as a Carnifex, but with 4th edition terrain, it's next to impossible. So it's an overcosted bullet magnet. Trygons are more popular because while they're still bullet magnets, they're far undercosted and tougher. However, put some real terrain down, and those Carnifexes will be making it to the enemies lines with little difficulty while those Trygons will still be huge bullet magnets.

Damn looted wagons and flash gitz.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines

blackshark121 wrote:I go with Swooping Hawks.

?

They can put down a large blast template every turn without ever actually spending any time on the board. It's like a super-accurate orbital bombardment that is able to contest objectives at the end of the game.

10. Demonettes
T3, 5++ and they have to deep strike in out in the open. If you're crazy enough to pick them over any of the other three lesser daemon types, chances are you're going to field them in large numbers because their only redeeming feature is cost. That makes for a larger DS footprint and more chance for mishap on top of being rediculously easy to kill.

9. Shining Spears
Way overcosted and not that good in the first place. It's hard to determine what role these guys are supposed to have when the other aspects do everything better and the Shining Spears aren't even versatile. Much better choices in the FOC slot.

8. Possessed
Statistically awesome once in every six games. Overcosted and underpowered in 4 and a liability another one in six games.

7. Bjorn the Fell-Handed
Might be a bad-ass dreadnaught but when he dies he kinda ruins the SW's day. Bumped down the list because he has a rule that bones his own side.

6. Pyrovores
Only reason they're not lower down the list is they have a flamethrower. It's really, really, strange how they made anything that could ignore cover hugely expensive for what it was in the 5th 'nid codex... except Hive Guard. Baffling.

5. Mandrakes
Great at hiding out... and nothing else. Bad at assault (particularly through cover... which they want to be in 100% of the time). To get a shooting attack, they have to assault something. Most things they want to assault will still wipe the floor with them (Mandrakes vs. Devastators or Long Fangs = bad game for the Mandrakes). Slip a Haemonculus in and they lose infiltrate, move the Haemie up to join and, really, there's better uses for a Haemie. The shooting attack are ok but nothing to write home about. Worse yet, an enemy can just ignore these guys. If they are doing about the only thing they're good at - denying an objective - they'll get assaulted and die.

4. Guardian Defenders
The real reason the Eldar are dying out, the 'masters of laser technology' hand out a 12" range weapon when just about everyone else can shoot them at 24" or more. There are much better ways to get heavy weapons onto the field and the unit just doesn't work with the rules... it's hard to believe that they are so bad for their point cost. Not lower down because at least the heavy weapon can be useful. Mandrakes beat them because at least they're tough to shoot.

3. Chaos Spawn
Why? Other than getting them for 'free' with Gift of Chaos, why would anyone pay the points for these things? The Shining Spears are better value!

2. Decapitator
This guy just doesn't work at all. Costs as much as a fully kitted out Archon, nowhere near the ability to kill. Marbo infiltration is not an advantage in a list where killier things can get a 26" charge or, better yet, pop out of a Webway Portal. And he takes up the HQ slot.

1. Etherial
Rediculously easy to kill AND it bones the Tau COMPLETELY when it dies? Living proof that rules designers should abstain from drugs.


Dishonourable Mentions:
Swooping Hawks: Probably 11th on the list, at least they might win you a game with a last turn objective denial.
Chaos Lord with Daemon Weapon/Abaddon: 1 in 6 chance to kill himself (except for Khornate one which is worse) but pretty good the rest of the time. Gonna pay those points, though, instead of the DP?
Tactical Marines: Not as bad as some people think... but not good since 3rd edition disallowed splitting fire. Sure, you can combat squad, which saves the unit's ranking. But if there's a reason the vaeriant chapters are generally more popular, this unit is likely the reason. SW, GK, BT, BA, CSM... even DA armies have better troop alternatives as long as your army ends with 'wing' and that's just MeQ. Nowhere near the worst unit (probably in the 30s) but I've always felt that they need a bit more love.
Chaos Dreadnaught: Saved from ignomy because you can throw a second DCCW on it instead of a big gun and put it near something with an AV to prevent it from every killing your own guys. Losing a turn on a 1 is bad but otherwise they can at least wreck face.

Worglock wrote:Codex: Chaos Space Marines

lol

Krootox!!!!
Ethrereal


Tbh kroot in general!

Aun'va
Firewarriors
Hammerhead

Vespid sting wings
Devilfish
Crisis battlesuits

Skyray defence gak... oops I ment ship

Stealth suits

Commander farsight


Probably get all 10 worst units from the tau army!

Crisis suit is BAD?

Pyrovore, OOE
DC tycho
swiftclaw biker/JP

There is a disturbing lack of people saying flash gitz...
Oh, and spore mines against dark eldar.

Who wants free pain tokens?

Hot shot lasguns on STs are pretty good when you take into account the fact that they bypass the wound allocation nonsense you get with other squads.

Some of the worst Guard units:

Special weapon squads with sniper rifles - Just really bad.

Actually, that is about all that I can think of. Some things are not the best but still have merit. Even the punisher can be useful against small, elite units.