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as others have said, it looks mean, but to be honest it really isn't all that and a bag of chips. at 1750pts I'd more than likely run something like this:

HQ
Rune Priest
100pts

Elites
3x Wolf Guard(5) 1x Terminator, Cyclone Launcher, Las/Plas Razor

Troop
2x Grey Hunters(5) Melta, Power Fist, Las/Plas Razor

Heavy Support
3x Long Fangs, 5x ML, Las Plas Razor

sure I am short on scoring units, but I will have 18 Missile Launchers, 3 of which can fire twice(so thats 21 shots, that I can use split fire on if need be), and then on top of them I get 8 Razorbacks, so thats 29 str8/ap3 or better shots in a single turn. then at 24" I get the 29, +8 str7/ap2 or better shots on your army, then at 12"(where you'll have to get to) that gives me, 29 str8/ap3 or better, +16 Str7 ap2 shots. all of which will out range you on turn one. I have enough fire power to kill one or two units a turn, and if I go first, I should be able to put a sizable dent in your force, as long as I don't spred my fire too thin, I should be able to get some first turn 25% LD tests on your squads, or pour enough fire to make you go to ground, or cut the squad down to a useless size. so as long as my shooting is decent, at 36-48, I get 29 shots, pouring half of that into two units(roughly) I should do enough to cripple them, take away heavy weapons, get them to go to ground, etc etc. I could easily see 4 of your power armored squads at seriously low levels of bodies, and maybe lacking heavy weapons all together. if its a good turn(catch you in the open, roll plently of 3-6's) I could just as easily smack a unit right off the table. and after dealing with your power armor walking over, I'd turn my MLs on your softer GEQ units, and frag them to death.

so in short, it looks mean on paper, and has some merit, but competitive lists with a decent general will have a field day.

Mookie Blaylock wrote:Good call on using the Tac squads for cheap bodies, I hadn't thought of that. E180's pretty good for an army these days.

I think you're right that we'll have to agree to disagree, have fun with it though. Personally I can't wait to get my Daemonhunters back on the field, it'll be nice to have a Codex that you can actually make multiple competitive builds from. I'm sure I'll get my own list put together and posted once I get my hands on the Codex.

Best of luck with it,

Mookie

I'm gonna build this army from scratch, I won't be recycling any of my age-old marines that I've used as SW or BA

I'm going for a Knights Templar theme for them, bone armor with a red Templar cross on their left shoulder. I'll use GK boxes as well as tactical and DA veteran boxes (because I love the models, and have never really had a chance to use them in an army), in a 2:2:1 ratio of GK, tacticals, and DA veterans. All of them will have GK weapons though, so hopefully no-one will complain (the GK box contains 13 PW's of varying flavors).

I'm probably going to pick up 30 marines to begin with, as most of my other lists that I've written contain around 20-30 PA GK, and I'll playtest this army a lot more before spending on the last 20 marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Garuss Acine

You should be able to shoot off around ~9 MEQ's per turn at >24" range. If I go first, that's one turn of shooting, if I go second its two. Then I get within psycannon range.

As soon as I'm within 24", your Long Fangs disappear, one turn later your vehicles are gone.

Granted, if I deploy stupidly I'll take a huge amount of casualties while trying to get within 24", but hopefully I'll deploy at least semi-intelligently

Yes it suffers from the same problems as all hordes, that is it has to spread out and thus become prone to refused flanks. Yet still, I have to say, when purely viewing mech vs foot, foot is a lot harder to win in a shooting duel. A vehicle has a very high probability of being suppressed after the first successful glancing or penetrating hit, meanwhile you have to slay 6-8 marines before the psycannons lose firepower. GK have a shorter range, but if you're opponent hangs back to shoot on his board edge, he is giving away board control, which imo is very risky.

Against assault armies it has 4 layers of expendable bubblewrap and a crapload of force weapons. The fact that this army is a foot gunline but still has the mobility (when e.g. compared to my BA foot gunline) makes it a very deadly list imo.

wouldn't necrons be a problem? i mean monoliths could just walk though unless a lucky melta got through.

id like to see this list vs a tyranid swarm lists it would make it very interesting xD

Alphacerberus wrote:wouldn't necrons be a problem? i mean monoliths could just walk though unless a lucky melta got through.

id like to see this list vs a tyranid swarm lists it would make it very interesting xD

Wow, actually, he has a point, this army might actually have a problem with Necrons. Thats like the first army in what, 300 years???

No but seriously, if he runs triple Monolith spam and keep his units back and behind them, its going to hurt you. Once all three get within the 12" bubble of killiness that Monoliths have, its just a matter of turns before he eats the army alive.

If you try and go around them, he just adjusts his monoliths to continue blocking LOS as much as he can, and relies on WBB rolls.

If you try and get into assault, you have to get within RapidFire range of ALOT of Crons first, which means you may not make the assault, cause you might die first.

Wow, that felt weird to think that Crons have a chance against a new codex......

Sorry guys, str10 thunder hammers against vehicles that can only move 6''. Not ideal.

Those large AP3 Blast Templates are going going to make for interesting times on those Grey Knights...

haizelhoff wrote:Sorry guys, str10 thunder hammers against vehicles that can only move 6''. Not ideal.

they gotta live to get into assault, which will mean 1, maybe 2, possibly three shooting phases of gauss. plus large blast templates before they make it into B2B, and if it did move at all, you need 4+ to hit with a total of 6 TH attacks per squad, which will give you 3 hits, then you need 4+ to glance, for 1.5 glances.

Gonna take them a while to kill it still.... and they have to face the rest of his armys shooting while doing this, and of course, if he brings destroyers, they outrange you and move like jetbikes, so if I was the Cron, I would be shooting for the Purifiers to try to take out the TH's.

You mean 1.5 results right? 1 PENETRATING hit a turn. Sure you get to shoot gauss at him. I play crons myself, but I wouldn't feel confident moving up monoliths with str10 TH running around with 8 ablative wounds.

Actually, its 1.5 results, not 1.5 pens. the 1.5 includes the 4+ for glancing, so at most you MIGHT get 1 pen a turn, but then again, you are almost as likely to get a glance.

Knowing how my dice roll, I would whiff every time anyway lol.

q about GK... I can chage my nemesis sword for nemesis halberd on my pally for free.. but i lose nothig and i got+2 to my init, why its free ?? please help ??

Jabbdo has fallen into a trap we all know too well... its the "I've got this great idea and nothing can top it" situation, and the only way to fix it is to do it and see it fail. I don't mean that it gets tabled every game, just that he sees that it doesn't work as well as he thinks.

Remember, there is no I WIN button in 40k. Everything has a counter. This is a very, very good GK horde list, and it will beat everything that a GK horde list is good at beating. What does a GK horde list beat? Nobody knows for sure, its all speculation, since we don't see this often enough to pass judgement. However, it will also lose to everything a GK horde list loses to, and quite a few potential candidates for this section have come up...

I'd say its a good list, get some models and proxy it in against some of your other armies or some helpful friends, and try it out before you go all GK-crazy and buy 96 more models and lock yourself in your room for 2 weeks furiously painting. Its hard to say how good this will do against a range of competitive lists until you've tried it a few times, so do it! Speculation on an internet forum is going to get you nowhere.

Eh, I think the list would struggle against pie-plate guard. Sure you spread them out, but that also means you end up spreading out your firepower and melta shots. Not that it's an awful list or anything, I'm just saying.

I have pondered foot-slogger lists in the past, and an Imperial First army I'm working on foot-slogs, in fact it's an entire company at 2000 Pts, which is barely possible.

I think you do have a lot of firepower, but it's not exactly on the most resiliant of forces as was stated. Not to be said it can't win games, I think you are right with the 'What the heck is this?' factor.

Mechanicus Mechanism wrote:
q about GK... I can chage my nemesis sword for nemesis halberd on my pally for free.. but i lose nothig and i got+2 to my init, why its free ?? please help ??

because the Palidin is losing a 4+ invuln in CC and is stuck with a measly 5++

same reason the DH is free too.

same reason the Falchion seems really cheap for +2A. you are losing some, and paying additional points, to gain alot.

Grey Templar wrote:

Mechanicus Mechanism wrote:
q about GK... I can chage my nemesis sword for nemesis halberd on my pally for free.. but i lose nothig and i got+2 to my init, why its free ?? please help ??

because the Palidin is losing a 4+ invuln in CC and is stuck with a measly 5++

same reason the DH is free too.

same reason the Falchion seems really cheap for +2A. you are losing some, and paying additional points, to gain alot.

THX.. have forgot the sword hability.. my bad !!

I'd like to add something I notice on the last page someone laughably suggested aside from the meltas you have nothing to deal with AV12+. Against AV14 Psycannons have over double the chance to penetrate (and therefore destroy) comapred to a lascannon. So for anti AV14 Fire power you have effectively better than 32 Lascannons worth of fire!!!

You'd wreck a russ list VERY quickly.

I like it people can theory hammer the various scenarios but this list has lots of power. It denies the firepower that most armies will spend most their points on (AT fire power). This is the beauty of the Psycannon great AT fire power and great AI firepower in 1 amazing gun.

Your issue is range (hence why you identified DE as your main problem army) mixed with poor mobiliy. The easiest solution would be Psyfleman dreads unsurpressible 48" move and fire weapons. But they'd be the only bit of armour in the list and would therefore largely scupper the true power of the list (denying AT fire and immense body count).

So I think you'll just have to suck it up and play accordingly. That means picking which of the 3 is the meatshield/front rank. Against for instance wyche armies and horde assault armies that will porbably mean purifiers at the front, possibly even combat squadded. Against LRs then its clearly the henchmen against deepstrike lists the strike squads go forward and declare a no-drop zone robbing units of the ability to rapidfire when they DS in.

Without chucking space monkeys into the list I can't see a viable way to get ranged firepower and they are just so expensive. But perhaps you could try a few if you find range becomes too much of an issue, this army could fall flat on its face in Warhammer but looks good from a theoryhammer point of view.

From memory does it say 1 henchman squad per inquisitor and I don't think it says that changes with Coteaz making them troops either.

edit- never mind found my dex and it is ammended.

it's either 1 henchmen per inquisitor or Coteaz makes them troops.


you can still take a henchmen squad with a inquisitor in a Coteaz army(for 7 possable henchmen squads), but the unamed inquisitor's squad won't be scoring.

I don't like it. You only have 10 shooting units (if all combat squadded and thus easy pickings for torrenting) a turn... all of which have 24". A standard space marine list with Speeders, Preds, and Dreads will rip through the GEQ wall in one turn. Then with 36" range weapons and Rhino walls to slow down the GKs, you can pour wounds on them till they fail saves. 3+ is good but not that good against torrenting.

And that's from a 1500 list.

I'd give any mechanized army a leg up on this list except maybe Sisters (Too short of range). Anything mobile with a ranged element will refuse a flank or simply dodge back whil picking away at the bubble wrap. Heck, skip the bubble wrap if you're shooting non-AP3 weapons and just pour Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, Multilasers, etc. at the Purifiers until you start killing psycannons.

This list could at least use a few cheap transports to drive forward turn 1 and smoke so that your GKs at least get 1 turn of safety.

Flingitnow said:
I'd like to add something I notice on the last page someone laughably suggested aside from the meltas you have nothing to deal with AV12+. Against AV14 Psycannons have over double the chance to penetrate (and therefore destroy) comapred to a lascannon. So for anti AV14 Fire power you have effectively better than 32 Lascannons worth of fire!!!

It was me who criticised the lists anti-Tank ability, I stand by my comment and give further reason for it here.

To statistically destroy a AV14 you need 5 Psycannons firing at full power (8 if it's got 4+ cover). That's at least a purifier squad and a strike squad which is about 500pts (ok ~250pts if you combat squad) tied up shooting a max 250pt vehicle. If you've to do that then your opponents laughing. To put it in perspective you only need 4 BS3 Meltas to take one out (54pts). This is not a reliable way to take out heavy armor, and I'm not even discussing what else might be in that tank to pose a threat once you do destroy it. This is why I believe this list is not a competitive list, it'll have a lot of trouble winning games convincingly, sure it's not an easy one to table, but it's also unlikely to table many decent lists.

There are other flaws with the list design which have been mentioned earlier, inability to deal with heavy armor is just one of them.

It's all fine looking at this list in the box that is theoryhammer but once you step out of that box and onto the table you're going to see a lot of flaws with this list.

Again best of luck with the army Jabbdo, just do yourself a favor and playtest it before you spend E180 on GK's.

Mookie.

at the range psycannons are shooting vehicles will rarely get cover.


each Psycannon shot has the following stats for getting a roll on the damage table.

2/3 chance to hit,

1/6 chance to Rend,

each rend has 1/3 chance to glance and 2/3 to pen.



basically a 11% chance for each shot to get a roll on the table.

a Psycannon on heavy mode has 4 chances so a 44% chance of a roll with each shooting phase(drop the chance to 22% if fired at the assault profile)

that breaks down to a 29.3% chance of a Pen and a 14.6% chance of a glance.


Multiply that by 2-3 psycannons and you have an almost garunteed roll on the table.



lets compare it to a meltagun.

2/3 chance to hit,

13.8% chance to glance and 58% chance to pen.


in total, a single meltagun has a 48.1% chance to get a roll with each shot at BS4. and it has Ap1 in it's favor

however, the Meltagun typically only gets one shot to drop a LR. if it wiffs it rarely gets a 2nd chance.


the Psycannon will get a couple of turns of firing though.

a psycannon that gets 2 turns of firing will on average have a 88% chance of getting at least one roll on the damage chart(with about 60% chance of that roll being a Pen)



so a psycannon actually trumps a meltagun over time against Av14.

Grey Templar wrote:so a psycannon actually trumps a meltagun over time against Av14.

The issue is that "Over Time" is a luxury and relies on the unit not being assaulted or badly shot up.

you really would need a nasty CC unit to pose a threat to GKs.

getting shot up is valid, but Gks can also mech up and/or have Psycannon equivilants on their Razorbacks(Assault cannon with psybolts)


and over time really only requires 2 turns of shooting for something to happen.

that and the Psycannon has a greater potential as it can get multiple rending shots for multiple vehicle damage rolls.

I don't mean a unit that assaults and kills them all, just one that tarpits them into a protracted battle, like when you see Powerblobs without meltabombs being assaulted by an Ironclad.

Well thats what Cleansing Flame is for.

and the way Cleansing Flame happens is it hits each individual model in the unit, so it can actualy snipe Sergeants and other upgrade characters.

Yeah as Grey Templar points out against AV14 Psycannons range means in general they trump even melta.

From range I don't see a moore cost effectiive way to deal with AV14 except Broadsides.

I mean how many points of auto-las preds (one of the best ranged AT units in the SM codex) would it take to on average kill an AV14 vehicle in 1 turn? I'm guess about 720? Maybe more...

People, people, don't complain about how they are walking, just remember these two words:

PERSONEL TELEPORTERS

end of conversation.

The maths on your analysis is off a little, by the way Grey Templar. Just so you know, when "adding" the probabilities together (1 melta has X chance to pen, 2 meltas have 2X chance to pen) then you have to multiply the compliments. Obviously, even though you have a ~48% chance to pen AV14 with a BS4 melta, you won't always get at least one pen when shooting three at it, you can always miss.

The math is done, instead of shots * pen chance, as: 1-((1-pen chance)^shots). This gives the chance you will get at least one pen or glance.

Grey Templar wrote: Psycannon on heavy mode has 4 chances so a 44% chance of a roll with each shooting phase(drop the chance to 22% if fired at the assault profile)

that breaks down to a 29.3% chance of a Pen and a 14.6% chance of a glance.


Multiply that by 2-3 psycannons and you have an almost garunteed roll on the table.

2/3 * 1/6 * 2/3 = pen from one shot
2/3 * 1/6 * 1/3 = glance from one shot

Shots: ...1.....2.....3.....4.....8.....16
Pens: 0.07 0.14 0.21 0.26 0.46 0.71
Glances: 0.04 0.07 0.11 0.14 0.26 0.45

Apologies for formatting. A full purifier squad, shooting 4 psycannons with 4 shots each at BS4 (16 shots total) has a ~71% chance of getting at least one penetrating hit, and only an ~85% chance of getting any kind of damage result. Maths don't lie, grab a thousand dice and roll them out, chances are you'll get about 70 pens, 40 glances and a lot of misses and ineffective hits. Roll 16 shots a thousand times and of those thousand volleys, ~150 of the 1000 tanks will not take a single damage roll.

Jabbdo has fallen into a trap we all know too well... its the "I've got this great idea and nothing can top it" situation

...and this is why I haven't bothered to try and out theory hammer him before, best just to gona leave it up to him to play it out and die quite horribly a lot. Though other people seem to be thinking this is a good idea and my end up wasting money on buying all the models for the list.

AP1/ AP3 large blasts are common and if your moving though cover to get the saves then its just going to take even longer to get up the board. IM have enough pie plates to smash this to the ground, remember the humble battlecannon is 72" S8 AP3, and its common to see two of these. Because you have so many dudes on the table, it'll be hard for the scatter not to hit something. If a flamestorm cannon hits your guys and dies next turn, chances are its killed enough guys to make its points back, especially the Purifiers. DE will have enough poison shots to wipe about 10-15 marines off the board a turn with 36" range splinter cannons and the 4++ of the in combat wyches means that they will be able to tie up a lot of your fire power whilst the skimmers zip over your heads towards objectives and/or out of range. Space wolves will be able to destroy your bubble wrap with long fangs before your in range and if they die when the grey knights are in range it isn't a great loss. TWC, built with SS of cause, will be able to munch your strike squads and will be able to get round your bubble wrap, if it is still alive, with tank shocking razorbacks, which if get wreaked out pop grey hunters to finish off your meltas. Eldar will be able to cause 24" tank shocks to get though all your guys and to objectives, and the AV12 with 4+ cover may be hard to break.

One you've moved within 24" you are only firing at 50% capacity and will have to sit still to fire at 100% capacity, so your going to get about 2.5 turns of effective shooting. Does having so many shots compensate for not shooting for about 50% of the game? The 24" range means that a lot of the time only 30-50% of your force will be in range of a threat so chances are that your not going to be able to get all the shots your need off at a target unless you bunch your whole army together. If your enemy deploys on the flanks your going to have to split your army in two to deal with it, and chances are they are meched up so can simply re group in the centre if one flank is getting hammered. Being able to be easily tanked shocked off objectives its going to be killer, no matter how shooty you are.

I will say again, people who rely on their lists to win and have geared their lists towards total anti- mech with little in the way of counter assault, such as my blood angels razorspam list, are going to have problems. Though there are plenty of ways with dealing with this, I've thought up a few and I'm not really that great a player, I'm sure that the real good tourni players will be able to think up more.

Though I will have to say it is probably the best horde list I have seen and does blow the idea that Grey Knights are an elite army out of the water. For around 360 points you could mech this out with rhinos and chimeras which means your guys could move in quicker, be harder to kill and fire out of opening hatches, eliminating the weaknesses of the list. You'd have 9 rhinos/chimeras and 390 points to play around with at 'ard boyz.

TL;DR: This is a 2,500 point list that needs to be finished off.

Jabbdo wrote:

General IG thoughts: very few tournament lists include russes. Really. Of course 9 executioners will hurt, but so will any list that is tailored to kill foot marines. Seriously though, this list outshoots IG @ 24". Really, it does. Better survivability on foot troops>lots of tanks. If you manage to get all your psycannons in range against IG, you've won.

I didn't mean Russes I meant just mech Guard in general. For example how would you fare against something like this:

HQ

Company Command Squad w/ Chimera 4 x plasma guns
Company Command Squad w/ Chimera 4 x plasma guns

Troops

Veterans w/ Chimera 3 x meltaguns
Veterans w/ Chimera 3 x meltaguns
Veterans w/ Chimera 3 x meltaguns
Veterans w/ Chimera 3 x plasma guns
Veterans w/ Chimera 3 x plasma guns

Fast Attack

Vendetta
Vendetta
Hellhound

Heavy Support

Manticore heavy flamer
Manticore heavy flamer
Manticore heavy flamer