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lets see, the Vendettas will get shot down pretty quick if they come into range.

the same thing with the Chimeras.

the points you spent on Meltaguns are practically wasted as are the Vendetta lascannons.

the Manticores could hurt, but IIRC the marines get their saves(or was that something else?)


if this list stayed beyond the 24" range for 3-4 turns it could do some damage,b ut i really can't see you avoiding that many bodies for that long.

and if he catches you you're dead.

Why are Vendettas going to move into range when they're at the back of the board and have a 48" range? Why would they move?

Psycannons needs to be in 24" range same with storm bolters which is plasma long fire range...

Meltas and Vendettas what are you on about? How exactly are meltaguns wasted? Vendettas are for light armour and meltas tough armour, in thise case both all do fine for slagging power armour.

Marines will get there saves, question is how many can they make?

No so got theorist I will let you know that for free

Either way, the Vendettas are pretty much useless as you have wasted points on Lascannons with no targets.


if you are in range to use Plasma and meltaguns you are pretty much dead meat as your Chimeras will be down and your vets out of their cans pretty quick.

You're kind of missing the point. That list isn't tailored to beat Jabbdos list at all, it's a balanced list so so saying I have "wasted points" on the Vendettas is false as I haven't wasted anything. You also forget they fire three lascannon shots a turn so that will be six lascannon shots going into a single unit which is going to do some damage. So very very far from no targets, what do you think the Vendettas are going to do sit there all game and not shoot?

Plasma is 24" I just said that by comparing to psycannons. If the Veterans are blown out the tanks then it needs to happen in the shooting phase which the list sees psycannons and melta for anti tank I believe which cannot be everywhere. If those fail then it is assault, if the Chimeras do not explode and the Guardsmen are not pinned then the enemy units will take punishment with mass plasma and melta. This is a problem with mech armies in general if you do not pop the transport in the shooting phase and deal with the unit via shooting, they will just turn around and blow you away in their own shooting phase.

lol must say, love theoryhammer when a lot of things are not considered correctly.

hmmm,

i would hardly call that guard list a take all comers one

it really doesn't have much is terms of long ranged anti-tank aside from Vendetta lascannons.

a list with lots of Missiles, autocannons, and/or lascannons would probably give this list a hard time.

are you serious? Plasma for heavy infantry and monstrous creatures, melta for tough vehicles, flamers for hodes, Vendettas for anti tank and Manticores for hordes and anti tank at range and you're telling me it's not take on all comers? Do you know about Guard?

Doesn't have much in terms of anti tank? I seriously now think you don't know the Guard codex. Three Manticores, two Vendettas how many multi lasers and the plasmas which can fire 24" if required, minus the plasmas that's 7 multi lasers, three Manticores and two Vendettas giving twelve ranged units. You need to open your eyes or read the Guard codex.

Only thing I agree about is yes you're right, lots of missiles, autocannons and lascannons would be a hard time.

it's just that the list seems all over the place.

I have seen meaner Guard lists and don't think this one measures up to anything more then a close 2nd to being truely nasty.



I am being kinda harsh, but it's that 'Ard Boyz time of year again(even if it is Fantesy right now, 40k is just a few months after that)

Yeah I run mech guard with 2 executioners and 2 demolishers, 2 vendetta's and 2 devil dogs with a couple chimera's. I will sit my chimera's in front of my russes give them a cover save, and drop templates and lasscannons from accross the board. The closer you get the more of my ap 2 and 1 weapons come into range, and my mobility is amazing compared to yours. The list needs some intercepters to put pressure on a gunline army early otherwise your marching into the teeth of it and even at that hi a model count I am removing 2-3 full units a turn. Against some armies it will be awsome. Long range shooting armies, you are going to ice skating uphill.

it's just that the list seems all over the place.

I have seen meaner Guard lists and don't think this one measures up to anything more then a close 2nd to being truely nasty.



I am being kinda harsh, but it's that 'Ard Boyz time of year again(even if it is Fantesy right now, 40k is just a few months after that)

You obivously don't know nothing about Imperial Guard. The list is a pretty common mech list. You're not being harsh either, just dumb, as you don't realise a good thing when you see it and just talking nonense about no ranged fire power and the list is all over the place crazy man. TBH I think you're just slating the Guard list because I've shot down all your points, which were just dribble as well.

This build would be a serious FU to any horde army. I think the few thinking "Ill just toss boyz/guants at them thatll show em!" wont work. Seriously, that would be a scary list to face against. IG might shrug them off, but thats not surprising really. Nice power build

I totally agree that a foot horde army such as Kan Wall or Tyranid Tervigon spam etc would be taken about by this list. Armies with mass mech and long range fire power I am dubious amount though it does remain to be seen.

Lots of replies again :O I didnt imagine the list would provoke this much conversation =)

A few general thoughts:

People seem to be greatly overestimating the effectiveness of blasts. Against a player who is patient enough to spread out his models to max coherency range, you will only get a single hit with small blasts, and 3 with pie plates.

Thats why comments like "IM have enough pie plates to smash this to the ground, remember the humble battlecannon is 72" S8 AP3, and its common to see two of these." or "Space wolves will be able to destroy your bubble wrap with long fangs before your in range" sound fairly ridiculous. How, exactly, are you killing 48 GEQ's with 15 missile launchers per turn, in 2 turns?

Something else you need to consider when building an army is: how well does this army do in standard missions? (ie. the main rulebook missions, and the missions most tournament missions are based on with small alterations sometimes). May sound obvious, but some people seem to be forgetting it. If I lose all of my purifiers, all of my strike squads, coteaz, all of my henchmen except one who is hiding behind a bush, and I managed to kill 10 rhinos/5 man marine squads, I won the game. The army WILL take large amounts of casualties, but that's what hordes have to deal with. It doesnt matter how many of your guys die, as long as you end up winning the game.

Gonna start playtesting in earnest next week, I've been busy with exams this week.

Another possibility I've been considering is picking up a Lib, to buff survivability with stealth and mobility with summoning (I'll probably drop a Strike Squad for the points). I'll have to mull over it.

I'm going to have to agree with Jabbdo. I actually did a video response to this post but decided not to put it up.

People need to take into consideration how not effective blasts truly are against marines who space themselves apart. Yeah your going to get some hits, but like Jabbdo said, your only getting 1 hit on a small blast, maybe 2 if it scatters and 3-5 with a large blast. All of which you have to wound AND then he gets to save over half of them. With that said, even if you have AP 3 weapons, don't forget there is going to be terrain that I'm sure hes going to utilize giving him a 4+ cover save. It is extremely unrealistic to say that you can stop that many marines in 2 turns of shooting.

I'm not saying this list is a win all against everything, but its so useless to have a pissing contest over the internet. Its also not worth comparing lists on paper. There are way to many variables that go into this game to just math hammer everything out. ALSO, don't forget that most games are not kill point missions. Have fun killing that many marines who are turtled around their home objective as well as other objectives.

Just my 2 cents. Stop comparing this list to others on paper and arguing about it. Toss up some battle reports and show us that your list can effectively kill that many models.

So, an alternative list:

Coteaz 100

(10) Purifiers, 4x psycannon, 4x halberd, 2x hammer 298

(10) Purifiers, 4x psycannon, 4x halberd, 2x hammer 298

(10) Purifiers, 4x psycannon, 4x halberd, 2x hammer 298

12 Warrior Henchmen, 3x Meltagun 78

12 Warrior Henchmen, 3x Meltagun 78

12 Warrior Henchmen, 2x Meltabombs 58

12 Warrior Henchmen, 2x Meltabombs 58

12 Warrior Henchmen 48

(10) Interceptors, 2x Psycannon, 1x Mastercrafted Hammer 295

(5) Interceptors, 1x Psycannon 140

= 1749

So, I lose 5 MEQ's and a psycannon, and gain 12 more henchman bodies (for a total 106 model count ).

Why Interceptors, you ask? Arent they obscenely expensive?

Yes =)

But they bring mobility to the list, and a 54" psycannon threat range. Something that IMO helps the list a lot. The big squad has a hammer to stop a dreadnought from tarpitting them, it lets you shunt them forward more aggressively if needed.

I've also been contemplating a list containing Space Monkeys, I'll maybe put up a list later.

As always, C&C appreciated =)

Yeah Interceptors do largely cover your weaknesses from the previous list. But your troops choices are now paper thin and you're reliant on tabling your opponent in 2 in 3 games.

Possibly lose some Henchmen for Crowe to cover? You'd be losing a lot of bodies though (which I know is kind of the entire point of your list).

I think a foot list that includes henchmen as troops really needs some Crusaders in there -- cheapest storm shields in the game, AFAIK! Even if you only stick 3-4 in each squad, your survivability against anything that is AP5 or better is going to skyrocket.

That might be another good solution Ian. I do think you will have to look at the urvivability of your henchmen now.In the first list they were cannon fodder because you had 20 Strikes to fall back on this time you'll need to keep them alive.

I honestly don't see the advantages this list has to offer. If you want to go MEQ horde, why not go BA and pick up jump packs, meltaguns, and FNP?

I honestly don't see the advantages this list has to offer. If you want to go MEQ horde, why not go BA and pick up jump packs, meltaguns, and FNP?

Firepower and power weapons.

Overall, I think speed, meltaguns, FNP, Furious Charge, and more attacks (both through more attacks per model and more models on the field) outweigh storm bolters and power weapons. I could be wrong, now, but I don't think so.

Psycannons not storm bolters. This list is about psycannons. You'd have more models on the field in a BA list really? You're at a lower initiative and his attacks are 3 times as threatening as yours are against each other. And against the Purifiers (30 of the 45-50 MEQs in the list) you're not even getting more attacks per model.

You idea that a small blast will hit 1 man, or a large 3, is on the basis that you have a single line of men all 2" apart and all units at least 2.5" apart and you have 99/106 men on the table. Oh, and nothing scatters. That really doesn't seem very realistic...

If 15 missles hit 2 wound each, then they could wipe out your 2/3 with 4+ cover. Not that unrealistic a situation. Also, 9 War walkers with scatter lasers, 72 shots, 36 hits, 30 wounds and 10 dead marines. 540 points of stuff there, without doom and guide. Oh, and 24" tank shock moves to get you off objectives. Have fun.
A point on objectives, you only need to kill 3 guys in the henchmen unit to make them fall back and they have leadership 8, and I don't believe you have any way of re-rolling that, so making them run off objectives and screwing up your battle line isn't going to be that hard.

Also, what is interesting to note, that if you have all the henchmen in front of your psycannons then everything you shoot at will be getting 4+ cover. In your new list, you have 60 psycannon shots if you stand still, which 40 will hit, if they sitting behind your henchmen, as you suggest that they will be, and effectiveness of the shooting will be halved, so you have about 20 shots that will have a chance of doing anything. Are 20 S7 hits over 2-3 turns worth 1,329 points you've spent on the units their in...?

This is a very second tier list at best. I really don't care if you run this list or not, I just don't want other people to waste money buying all these models thinking its a good idea. I'm not going to persuade you because you are really, really stubborn but once you get rinsed a couple of times it may not seem like the great idea that it was...

PS. Your becoming a meme with my group of friends, you should be proud

Yet another possible version:

Coteaz 100

Librarian, Might of Titan, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Summoning 175

(10) Purifiers, 4x psycannon, 4x halberd, 2x hammer 298

(10) Purifiers, 4x psycannon, 4x halberd, 2x hammer 298

(10) Purifiers, 4x psycannon, 4x halberd, 2x hammer 298

(10) Strike Squad, 2x Psycannon 220

(5) Strike Squad, 1x Psycannon 110

12 Warrior Henchmen, 2x Meltagun, 2x Meltabombs 78

12 Warrior Henchmen, 2x Meltagun, 2x Meltabombs 78

12 Warrior Henchmen 48

11 Warrior Henchmen 44

= 1747

So, "only" 94 models this time round

You've now got a Lib, so everyone has a 3++ against shooting. Yay! This makes your 45 MEQ's even more survivable against ap 1-3 fire.

This is gonna be one of those lists that will have to be constantly tweaked, It'll be a while before I find the ideal setup, if ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ sHOEbOX

Take a small blast, measure it. You'll find that it is 3" in diameter. This means that against models spread out to 2" apart from eachother you CANNOT hit more than 1. If you do, you are cheating. Sure, scatters might take it onto 2 models, but it'll have to be a pretty accurate scatter Large blasts, 5" in diameter, meaning that you can hit 3 models exactly (2"x2 coherency, + 0.9887" base = 4.9887").

I'm just saying that relying on blasts against hordes isnt ideal because if your opponent has the patience and inclination to spread his models out your blasts will be fairly ineffective.

"If 15 missles hit 2 wound each, then they could wipe out your 2/3 with 4+ cover. Not that unrealistic a situation." Wait what? Mind explaining what you're talking about here?

"Oh, and 24" tank shock moves to get you off objectives. Have fun." Of course, because I definately wont put my meltabomb guys (who I took specifically for death or glory against tank shocks) on my objectives.

Yep, henchmen have ld8. That's pretty good actually, I'm surprised they didnt get ld7.

"Also, what is interesting to note, that if you have all the henchmen in front of your psycannons then everything you shoot at will be getting 4+ cover. In your new list, you have 60 psycannon shots if you stand still, which 40 will hit, if they sitting behind your henchmen, as you suggest that they will be, and effectiveness of the shooting will be halved, so you have about 20 shots that will have a chance of doing anything. Are 20 S7 hits over 2-3 turns worth 1,329 points you've spent on the units their in...?"

Are you joking? I really cant tell...

How is the effectiveness of my shooting being halved? Against vehicles, you wont get cover from my henchmen, against marines you get a 3+ anyway. Against stuff with a 4+ save, they'll either be in cover anyway (unless your opponent wants his units to die?), or in the open, in which case I move my henchmen out of the way.

You may think that this is a second tier list, fair enough. That's your opinion and I'm not going to insult you because of it. I'm just saying that it would be nice if you actually thought about some of the thing's that you're writing, and looked at my explanations (and the explanations of several other smart fellows) on how the list works, instead of just saying it sucks without providing actual criticisms.

Thanks.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote:Overall, I think speed, meltaguns, FNP, Furious Charge, and more attacks (both through more attacks per model and more models on the field) outweigh storm bolters and power weapons. I could be wrong, now, but I don't think so.

The difference is that BA jumper lists are mobile CC lists, that have decent tank via meltaguns and rely on beating face in CC. The problem is, if they come across something that is killier than they are in CC, they are fethed.

This list is a midfield shooting list, with very strong board control ability, and great CC capability if the situation calls for it.

Just one out-of-list-comments question Jabbdo.

How do you plan to build up your Henchmen? You'll use regular IG models or something different?

More on topic, this last list add a little more to the wall thanks to the Librarian but I'm not really pleased about the little 5x Strike sq.

Just by dropping most of the Halberds (I don't think you'll really need them..), another one naked Henchmen, considering the 3 free points and obviously exchanging the 110 points of the 5x Strikers you'll can take 4x Jokaeros and divide them in 2x 2x for the obj. keepers units.

Don't think about them only as one not-exaclty-cheap BS3 Lascannon but also as a random unit's enphasizers.

HQ - Coteaz 100
HQ - Librarian, Might of Titan, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Summoning 175
EL - (10) Purifiers, 4x psycannon, 4x halberd, 2x hammer 298
EL - (10) Purifiers, 4x psycannon, 2x hammer 290
EL - (10) Purifiers, 4x psycannon, 2x hammer 290
TR - (10) Strike Squad, 2x Psycannon 220
TR - 10x Warrior Henchmen, 2x Meltagun, 2x Meltabombs + 2x Jokaeros. 140
TR - 10x Warrior Henchmen, 2x Meltagun, 2x Meltabombs + 2x Jokaeros. 140
TR - 12 Warrior Henchmen 48
TR - 12 Warrior Henchmen 48
Tot. 1749

"Space wolves will be able to destroy your bubble wrap with long fangs before your in range" sound fairly ridiculous. How, exactly, are you killing 48 GEQ's with 15 missile launchers per turn, in 2 turns?

you will not get their in two turns there is diffcult terrain and when your spread out 24 inches are likely to encounter it and if your GK's are behind henchmen how will they get range with psy cannon as you said how will you do this with 4 layers of henchmen and purifer wrap quote.

Yeah, my bad. There is a fair bit of derp there, I wrote it whilst I was still really tired and grumpy...

I've got 10 marines, set up in a 5X2 formation, all 2" apart from models that are vertically horizontally from them. This takes up 12" by 3.5", and you have 8 units of 10+. This is going to take up over 8 foot by 2 foot, your going to have 2" space, at least, between each unit, which means the area that they cover is going to be huge, possibly bigger than your deployment area, factoring in impassible terrain. Its gona mean that deployment is going to be a bitch, less chance that your guys are going to get cover and moving them is going to be a bitch. I dunno if you have played horde armies before, but as a nid player, moving 20 man termagaunt mobs spread out like you suggest is a real bitch, and if the units at the front don't get a good run roll then it slows the rest of your army down.

"If 15 frag missles from Long Fangs, wound 2 GEQ's each, then they could wipe 2/3 of your henchmen with 4+ cover over 2 turns. Not that unrealistic a situation." It just has to scatter half way between any two GEQ's in any unit, which is quite likely, and your wounding on a 3+ and with 4+ cover that's 15-20ish dead a turn, 30-40 over 2 turns, and you have the rest of the army to shoot. IG are going to spit out enough blasts to do far more than this. Eldar could happily wipe over half you psycannon's before you got there and it won't make a blind bit of difference if your spread out or not or if you get cover.

Fair enough about the tank shock, but they still are going to be a push over to get off the objective. If their all spread out like you said, you can charge the end that is furthest away from the objective and the pile in will mean that is a good chance that they will move off the objective. I really think your overestimating the ability of 12 ld8 men to hold an objective. 20 termagaunts that are fearless can't hold an objective for crap.

Yeah, I was derping when it came to the cover. Though again I will say that moving the henchmen out the way whilst keeping them 2" apart is going to be very difficult.

I am providing very specific critisms vs other competitive armies. Your not going to beat a smart Eldar, Dark Eldar army or Guard army so your list isn't going to win tournaments. Fair enough, you could give other competitive lists a run for their money, I'm not denying that, but it is very weak again the above 3 armies so your just going to become unstuck. I would say weak enough against these armies to say it wasn't competitive. It's not that I don't want to list not to work, well actually, I don't think that the grey knights should have the ability to have this many men on the table but that's Matt Ward's fault not yours. That aside, a change in the meta- game is always welcome because it means there are new challenges to writing lists and keeps the game fresh, so if the grey tide makes an impact I will hand it to you and will happily say I was wrong. I'm sick of arguing with about this anyway, so I'm gona just make suggestions...

Dawn of war deployment could really mess things up for you, how would you work around that?
Librarian is a good move, though I'm a bit confused about 'summoning'. Does it mean they can't scatter over 6" of the librarian or you place it within 6" and it can scatter further. If its the later, which I think it is, then because you have so much stuff on the table then there is a pretty high chance of mishap. I'm guessing you took it so you can get cannons where you want them quickly and to get things away from assaults which is smart.
I think 2 hammers are a bit over kill, but they are cheep. Again, not sure if the every unit has to have halberds but it is also really, really cheep. If you but the Librarian with the purifiers then you could have 30 S7 I10 attacks or S6 I10 force weapon attacks on the charge with just the purifiers. If you could cut 50 points you can bump that up to 40. That's gona kill about 10- 15 marines on the charge or 4 thunder wolves, and that's not including the cleansing flame. That is really nasty, but then again its going to be a huge target to be walking up the board. Might be fun in a land raider, pop smoke and shroud...
Also, 12/15 of your psycannons are tied up in your 3 purifier units which means that the enemy can concentrate their fire on them to seriously just at them to end to your shooting. Finding a way to spread out the cannons might be a good idea to prevent this, though I couldn't tell you how to achieve this.
I think the 5 man strike squad is a waste of points, they will die easily and only add a psycannon for 110 points.
What units are going to be part of the screen and which one aren't? Don't think that space monkey's are worth the points, their only BS3 and you'll be wanting your units sitting on the objective to be going to ground a lot to avoid dying so they'd be useless anyway. Crusaders could be nice, cutting out the 5 man unit means you could add 7 to the list and means that your screen units will be larger and far more survivable. It also means you have the chance to tie up units and your henchmen units could actually kill something.
I think interceptors could really be a nice buy, as it adds a great deal of maneuverability to the list. I'd say they need as many shooting upgrades on them as possible, but the jump really make them quite vulnerable and you'd want them to make as big a punch as possible when they jump. I think they really excel as objective clearer's and can really help you in DoW matches.

I still don't get that why you don't mech it up and add riflemen for 2,500, that would get rid of all the disadvantages of the list and could really make people cry.

@ Toban

I'm gonna use the same models I use for my IG, they're pretty cool IMO (sort of Killzone look) and fairly cheap too (at least compared to GW plastics):

http://www.wargamesfactory.com/announcements/shock-troops-sci-fi-greatcoat-infantry-up-for-pre-order

I thought about Jokaeros for a while, but the problem in putting them with the henchmen means that the henchmen are resigned to a sit-at-home-and-shoot role, when they're usually more useful bubblewrapping and clogging up midfield. Plus they're really pretty damn expensive for single wound t3 models, that bring only a single bs3 lascannon (granted, they have ablative wounds in the form of henchmen, but still.)

I'll have to think about the list some more.

I was thinking at Jokaeros for a double purpouse.

For sure the BS3 Lasers that will come usefull sometimes but in fact considering them the opposite in terms of ablative wounds.

One or 2 units of Henchmen will have to sit and protect your backfield in at least 2/3 of games imho. Not only they will have to old objectives but thwy will even have to support. Adding Jokaeros you'll can shot something that you don't have in other units of you list and even put on them the ST6/7/8/.. shoots instakill profiting by their 5+ inv.

They will eventually even give the same kind of save at all the unit.

For sure they're pricy. Damn pricy but I don't see anithing else you'll can add to the list while keeping the infantry tide concept.