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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/06 14:04:53
Subject: Re:How do you feel about "Counts As"
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
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Vandex, awesome attack squig by the way
I really think what this comes down to, time and time again, is how much effort someone has made to convince you that the character you see before you on the tabletop represents the rules that you see in the rulebook.
I use my Pre-Heresy World Eaters as Blood Angels, for a variety of reasons. I've thought long and hard about what codex to use, and the time I have spent converting models and painting I also wanted to get it so they felt right on the tabletop. When the last codex BA came out I had a few opponents who rolled their eyes when I informed them of the ruleset I used, obviously assuming I was just jumping on the bandwagon, but that soon disappeared once they saw my army and we got into a game. And the only complaint I have actually had during a game was when a DE player forgot which one of my assault units was the 'death company' and charged them with Helions, and promptly got wiped out  But, afterwards he did admit it was kind of obvious and we had a laugh about it.
There is an example linked below of one of the characters I use to represent Astorath the Grim, with rules as well as background.
http://eatersofworlds.blogspot.com/2011/03/world-eaters-2nd-company-captain-sevruk.html
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/06 15:19:28
Subject: How do you feel about "Counts As"
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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My take:
They're your mandollies. Play them how you want.
I don't care about paint scheme (or painted, even). I don't care about armament (to a degree). I don't care if you're codex-hopping a generic SM army from one codex to the next.
It's a game. have fun with it.
Example:
All Grey Knights are outfitted with Nemesis Force Sword & Storm Bolters as standard gear. If my opponent says, "All my generic marines are generic GK proxies," I'm okay with it... because it's standard. As long as it's logical and easy to understand, I'm good.
"I just wanted to try out an all lascannon Lon Fangs army, but I don't have that many las cannons. So, all Heavy Weapons are proxies for lascannons."
I'm good there, too. It's easy. It's simple.
"All my plasma guns are actually melta guns."
Again... no problem.
Any friendly game I'm playing in, that's my take on it. Why? Because it's a *friendly* game. Be friendly.
If it is a tournament game, then I expect your to meet codex standards (no proxies). I don't care if all of your GK proxies are carring force swords, but they'd better be carrying SOME type of sword or blade.
"These guys are carrying force-chainswords and the others are carrying force daggers that count as swords"
Works for me. : )
Eric
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Black Fiend wrote: Okay all the ChapterHouse Nazis to the right!! All the GW apologists to the far left. LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE !!!
The Green Git wrote: I'd like to cross section them and see if they have TFG rings, but that's probably illegal.
Polonius wrote: You have to love when the most clearly biased person in the room is claiming to be objective.
Greebynog wrote:Us brits have a sense of fair play and propriety that you colonial savages can only dream of.
Stelek wrote: I know you're afraid. I want you to be. Because you should be. I've got the humiliation wagon all set up for you to take a ride back to suck city.
Quote: LunaHound--- Why do people hate unpainted models? I mean is it lacking the realism to what we fantasize the plastic soldier men to be?
I just can't stand it when people have fun the wrong way. - Chongara
I do believe that the GW "moneysheep" is a dying breed, despite their bleats to the contrary. - AesSedai
You are a thief and a predator of the wargaming community, and i'll be damned if anyone says differently ever again on my watch in these forums. -MajorTom11 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/06 15:23:38
Subject: How do you feel about "Counts As"
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Stealthy Dark Angels Scout with Shotgun
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I'm alright with counts as, as long as everything is WYSIWYG. If you are trying to tell me your Plasma Cannon is really a missile launcher, that won't fly with me. But if your blue marines use a red marine book, I don't mind as long as everything is represented.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/06 15:45:04
Subject: Re:How do you feel about "Counts As"
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Devastating Dark Reaper
Tennessee
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My take on the whole "Count As" or Proxy really depends upon the situation. If it is just a casual friendly game I usually don't care about other people doing Proxy or Count As stuff. There have been several times over the years I have had to proxy something either because I wanted to check something out or the model it was proxing was still on the painting table, etc. But as long as the other player says what is being proxied for what I am cool with it. Count As armies I usually don't have a problem with, though the dex hopping is something I personally dislike in the end it is their models they can play how they want. I can always choose not to play them.
In a tournament however I feel proxies are something that should be as limited as possible mainly for the reason of not causing any problems. There have been a few tournaments that arguments have broke out over what person had what, one in particular was when a guy used a meltagun marine as a plasma gun then tried to use it as a melta gun vs a land raider. The local tournament around here uses a N.A.T score (Not A Tool) one of the things that hurts your score is the number of proxies you have. Counts As armies again for the most part in a tournamet setting I do not have a problem with as long as they make sense, like the litte snotling on a bike as a attack squig. However if you bring your fully painted SW army that you played with last tournament and did well but got wooped by a BA list and you know who is coming to a tourny and that they cant handle a BA list and you bring one to play with SW then I have a problem with, but thats mainly because you are WAC player. Luckly for me most of those kind of players no longer frequent the gaming club.
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Elthrai - Doom, Inexorable fate, Hope
10,000+ 3,500 - 4,000-
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/06 16:07:20
Subject: How do you feel about "Counts As"
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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I have a "generic" army. It's made from standard SM's with FW Raptors iconography (because I like the way it looks) and is (mostly) painted in a light jade & white color scheme.
I will have no misgivings about using it as ANY MEQ codex army, because I like them all but She Who Must Be Obeyed says we have to pay the bills instead of buying me a new army two or three times a year.
Eric
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Black Fiend wrote: Okay all the ChapterHouse Nazis to the right!! All the GW apologists to the far left. LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE !!!
The Green Git wrote: I'd like to cross section them and see if they have TFG rings, but that's probably illegal.
Polonius wrote: You have to love when the most clearly biased person in the room is claiming to be objective.
Greebynog wrote:Us brits have a sense of fair play and propriety that you colonial savages can only dream of.
Stelek wrote: I know you're afraid. I want you to be. Because you should be. I've got the humiliation wagon all set up for you to take a ride back to suck city.
Quote: LunaHound--- Why do people hate unpainted models? I mean is it lacking the realism to what we fantasize the plastic soldier men to be?
I just can't stand it when people have fun the wrong way. - Chongara
I do believe that the GW "moneysheep" is a dying breed, despite their bleats to the contrary. - AesSedai
You are a thief and a predator of the wargaming community, and i'll be damned if anyone says differently ever again on my watch in these forums. -MajorTom11 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/06 17:37:55
Subject: How do you feel about "Counts As"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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For me it comes down it a variety of factors-
Tournment play its alot stricter, so long as its pretty well done(World eaters played as BA- preheresy) or blue marines played as black templar. It has to be realitively done right, different colors, or even models is ok, so long as it makes sense.
If its a good friend, I dont care how much of counts as it is, in friendly play- I really dont care, as long as its clear. Especially to test things out. Random strangers it needs to be better
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Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 0024/04/06 17:45:24
Subject: How do you feel about "Counts As"
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Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu
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I have 3 units of Mandrakes that I am using as "Count As" Wrack since they don't have a offical model out yet for Wracks, I figure it would do and especially since I don't use the mandrakes for anything bud Wracks. I don't know, Is it wrong of me to do that?
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Sometimes you've gotta roll the hard six ~ Adm. Adama
Surprise, I just did something horrible to you! ~ Me
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/06 17:48:18
Subject: How do you feel about "Counts As"
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Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle
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More than fine with count as, and for the most part proxy, as long as it's close enough to what you want it to be, go for it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/06 22:35:10
Subject: How do you feel about "Counts As"
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Guarding Guardian
Aurora CO
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Being a new player I've had to resort to proxying a large portion of my army to meet more fun (for me and opponent, 500 is good for rule learning but less in strategy and just game sense) point levels for a while now.
It certainly is much better to have the models though, using a squad of hormagaunts as banshees leaves a disconcerted feeling in me.
So it is just a question of what you and the opponent are willing to accept, and I'm hoping to gather more models soon which seems to be the other half of acceptable proxying.
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: Just starting out! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/06 23:46:25
Subject: How do you feel about "Counts As"
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Sneaky Kommando
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As long as they don't change what the unit is mid game. I've had someone do that. They said it was one unit then the unit and equipment would change due to not remembering or trying to cheat because some things did not go their way.
We were playing Apoc games for a bit with a cardboard cutout of a Eldar Revenant Titan just becaue my friend got one and hadn't put it together yet but still wanted to play with it. We were able to make it the same size. We had no problem with it.
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M: "You are the universe, alpha and omega, the beast with a thousand young, do what thou whilt shall be the whole of the law. NOW GO FORTH AND MUTILATE!!"
"Samus. That's the only name you'll hear. Samus. It means the end and the Death. Samus. I am Samus. Samus is all around you. Samus is the man beside you. Samus will gnaw upon your bones. Look out! Samus is here."
Armies:
:3000 +
Fantasy: Gettin Started |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/07 01:15:02
Subject: How do you feel about "Counts As"
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
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MagickalMemories wrote:
Example:
All Grey Knights are outfitted with Nemesis Force Sword & Storm Bolters as standard gear. If my opponent says, "All my generic marines are generic GK proxies," I'm okay with it... because it's standard. As long as it's logical and easy to understand, I'm good.
"I just wanted to try out an all lascannon Lon Fangs army, but I don't have that many las cannons. So, all Heavy Weapons are proxies for lascannons."
I'm good there, too. It's easy. It's simple.
"All my plasma guns are actually melta guns."
Again... no problem.
Yes indeed, I think the point here again is clear labelling of what is what.
Although it has to work outside of tournament games also. I've seen a massive, 8 player FoW scenario game (which had been weeks in the making, special rules, specially constructed terrain, had a lot of effort put into it) descend into anarchy because a guy who was using Russians hadn't clearly set out who his command units were. While he was dismissively throwing away his conscript infantry as they got blown up, a couple of the opposing guys claimed that one of those infantry stands was representing a command unit. It made a massive difference, and actually could have made the game fall either way (hence the argument), but because the chap using Russians wasn't using standard models and hadn't clearly labelled what was what, it actually ended with the atmosphere of the game turning quite sour. And, I am sure ruined the afternoon for a couple of people.
So, clear-labelling is a no-brainer I think. Although I would still maintain a lot of people make efforts outside of the tournament setting, campaigns and the like, and many will still find the experience more enjoyable, and their imagination has an easier time of it, if effort is made on the modelling/painting side of thing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/07 11:32:49
Subject: How do you feel about "Counts As"
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
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If a model is the correct size and has correct weapons modelled then that's fine as COUNTS AS as I see it. So Space Wolves as Vanilla Marines, that's fine. As for Orks, well COUNTS AS for vehicles is the whole point of them IMHO.
A PROXY is a different model entirely (Ork Weirdboy as a Necron Warrior). Proxies only really get used in our club if a player has forgotten something or maybe a model broke on the way to the club; it's happened. And to be honest as long as I know what is what I don't mind; I'm a gamer before I'm a modeller.
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Apologies for talking positively about games I enjoy.
Orkz Rokk!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/07 11:39:42
Subject: How do you feel about "Counts As"
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Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker
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feel like there is a big difference between proxys and a count as.
What OP is describing sounds like people who proxy a GK , army, and that is both confusing and half a**ed unless your are simply trying out a type of unit to make sure it is a worthwhile purchase.
Count as, is making your own version of a model to use as the model and is generally more accepted. Or at least I thought.
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Blood Rouges 10K+
Hive Fleet Unyielding 5.5k
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/07 18:27:41
Subject: How do you feel about "Counts As"
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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man... you guys would HATE playing me i guess, I'm geting models when i can, but have only been into war hammer for a few months, I've got my assault on black reach set, a few pieces here and htere more boys, 3 more koptas also black reach, another warboss, and 50 more boys. usually i have the terminators count as kanz or mega nobz, space marines are sometimes komandoes or lootas, just whatever i cna fit in, as i can spend more money on the hobby i'll have the real things eventually, but till then people seem to liek playuing me for my odd lists and overlook my lack of models.
oh and the part you'd likely cringe at... my battle wagons and trukks are made out of knex but they are to scale, i'm gonna get my vehicles last and am workign on ways to make some trukks from scratch with random stuff , and my biker boys are just little toy motorcycles bought from toys'r'us which are almost the same siz ebut were a set of 6 for 5 bucks
as i can afford i'll get more, but i have student loans and a house to pay for before my hobby  and most people understand that
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