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This topic came up breifly in a conversation I was having yesterday, basically how do you feel about counts as/proxies? With the new GK codex being released the problem of counts as armies at my FLGS is probably going to rise exponentially. I for one like custom models/conversion work as long as the model is an acceptable representation of a codex entry or other RAW unit. However, It gets me very annoyed when a player puts his ugly vanilla marines down and then states he will be playing BA,SW, or now ugh GK. Specifically there are a number of TFG's at my FLGS who did this constantly with BA and I already hear them talking about buying the GK dex. One of them also started a huge argument at a local tourney because he was trying to use a small cardboard box as a stormraven.

How do you guys feel about proxies? And if you allow it how far do you let it go?

Uhh, anything having to do with a cardboard box is a negative IMO. I'm not a fan of "counts as" unless it's a cool conversion model and the army only has a couple count as models, not the whole freaking army.
I'm not very argumentative so I'd probably let it go pretty far in a friendly game, but I would avoid that person from then on out until they have a legit army.

This thread seems to come up monthly... Look back a page and you can probably find the last one!

Cardboard box-Bad

Simply grabbing the newest rules, and using normal marines as proxies-bad

Counting Steve the Sergeant as a captian until you finish the model- Acceptable.

I think for casual play I wouldn't mind... so long the player doing it is consistent. Not that I'm any better. With my first space marine army I would proxy certain heavy weapons because I didn't have enough of one or the other... and I would tend to forget.

The type of 'Counts As' that I really dig is when someone creates a list for lets say Space Wolves and makes his own fluff and color scheme. That type of counts as I think is fun. I'm thinking of doing it for an army where I use Kayvan Shrike in an SM army that I want to count as Night Lords.

If you are maybe play testing something or said: 'Yeah, when I was assembling this years ago I thought XXX looked cool, so I glued it on, I have now since found out it sucks, or dont want to play it anymore, can it count as having XXX weapon until I get a new one?'

People purposefully confuse 'counts as' with 'proxies'.

Things with clearly defined rules being used as another 'something' with clearly defined rules is a PROXY.
(saying a lascannon is a missile launcher is a PROXY. There are clear and available rules for Lascannons so there is no reason to make it a missile launcher.)

Things with no defined rules being used as 'something' with clearly defined rules is COUNTS AS.
(Saying a boar boy is a biker is a counts as there are no rules for cyboars and bikers are the closest available rules)

People usually dislike and disallow proxies, People usually welcome counts as. People who are trying to get away with things usually call PROXIES some form as COUNTS AS to bully opponents and events into accepting thier models.

If you want to PROXY ask for permission and accept some people don't mind proxies. A good counts as is usually universally accepted and lives and dies by 'rule of cool'.

If you plan to have an everymarine army, your codex-unique models should be modeled. Saying your models are bikes one day and TWC another isn't going to make many friends.

my figures are wysiwyg........but i use a few count as

my space wolves army instead of using servitors i replaced the servitors with cyberwolves......wolves jaw would be no different from the plier arm on the servitor.......for gun servitors the side is done up with some metal pieces showing thru the fur and then some putty and a gun was attached to create a smaller version of the heavy bolter sponson on the predators

I did consider a mad idea of collecting deathwatch zenoshunters, but, as you probably know there is not a deathwatch dx out yet. So my plan, count as BA or zerkers.
I mean that was a wild thought, but I have converted a few minis that are a bit more reasonable. I had an ork mad doc with cyborg-marine-ork retinue, and I did not want to use the FW IA 8 rules cus' it means I need a dread mob list, so I counted him as grotsnik and meganobs with cyborg bodies, to spearhead in larger games. Da boss fixed em' up good an' propa'.

Personally, I LOVE the 'counts as' rule, and so does GW!

It allows a lot of creative freedom to get otherwise impossible Armies on the board.

For example, with its mix of Marines and 'normal' human units, the new Grey Knights codex is an excellent way to get an Alpha Legion Cell on the battlefield!

As long as everything is well done and well explained, if not obvious, why not?

I tend to proxi units for a battle or two before I buy them, especially for units that cost a bit more $. For instance I used a demolisher w/o a turret as a manticore for a battle, I wouldn't try something like this at a tourney though. and certainly not as a long term solution

For me, proxies are fine on the short term, but in a long term sense if someone is still proxing a unit they should just buy it (assuming they can).

Count as I simply don't mind as long as I and the player knows what they are.

Alpharius wrote:Personally, I LOVE the 'counts as' rule, and so does GW!

It allows a lot of creative freedom to get otherwise impossible Armies on the board.

For example, with its mix of Marines and 'normal' human units, the new Grey Knights codex is an excellent way to get an Alpha Legion Cell on the battlefield!

As long as everything is well done and well explained, if not obvious, why not?

I concur if things are well done and original.
But vanilla marines as space wolves and cardboard boxes as stormravens? Negative.

As long as it is WYSIWYG, any complaints will simply be disregarded as childish whining.

The cardboard box thing? That is lame.

But equalling the act of using official WYSIWYG Space Marine models to represent a given codex to using cardboard boxes is just as lame.

Who in their right mind would say; "I am sorry, but I find it confusing that your Grey Knights (which are completely WYSIWYG) are painted *insert colour of choice* as opposed to gunmetal/silver"?

And that is the only "argument"!
Talking about "fair" or "you haven't spent the money buying the right official GW models" is simply too childish to comprehend.

Steelmage99 wrote:
Who in their right mind would say; "I am sorry, but I find it confusing that your Grey Knights (which are completely WYSIWYG) are painted *insert colour of choice* as opposed to gunmetal/silver"?

There is a huge difference in someone proxying TH/SS terminators as Grey knights saying 'they have a similar armor save and strong weapons' and someone painting WYSIWYG grey knights as smurfs. I suspect you will see lots of the 'former' over the 'latter'. Lots of everymarine armies are done really poorly and some are done really well. When people see bad ones that are blatant proxies being called COUNTS AS they get turned off to the whole idea.

And that is the only "argument"!
Talking about "fair" or "you haven't spent the money buying the right official GW models" is simply to childish to comprehend.

Often people who are knowingly using proxies, especially confusing ones are the first to call names of people who don't want to spend a whole game asking 'what is this supposed to be again?' They also try to call PROXIES the same as COUNTS AS using the line that GW likes and supports COUNTS AS. Which they do... Just not proxies. Proxies have a time and a place, when both players agree to allow them.

What about people who can't afford to buy stuff for there armies, and need to save up over a period of time? I am always fine with that, especially if they are new

I'm a huge fan of counts-as as a means of allowing some visual/fluff-based creativity. I'm less of a fan of counts-as being used to repeatedly hop codices, keeping an army perpetually at the cutting edge of codex creep.

I definitely feel that it's necessary to distinguish between "counts as" and "proxying," though, as they are really two separate issues. Scratchbuilding and kitbashing an AdMech army played with the IG codex? Badass counts-as. Converting Skaven models to have warpstone lasers and running them as Dark Eldar? Awesome counts-as space rats. Hacking up an old Landraider (artfully) instead of buying a Battlewagon? Fluffy and possibly economical. Calling a cardboard box a Stormraven? That's proxying, and I think it's totally defensible for playtesting (if both players agree beforehand), but after you've played a few games and and formed an opinion, buy or build a reasonable representation if you want it in your army.

Honestly, I think the counts-as issue is entirely dependent on intent. Using the SW or BA codex for a homebrew chapter is fine, if that's the best representation of how they fight. Using those codices to get discounts and stat boosts for a homebrew chapter that would otherwise have no association with the chosen codex, however, is downright cheesy.

"These guys are Dark Angels successors, run as BA."
"Huh? Why not DA or vanilla marines?"
"Dude. Fast tanks."
[commence slow, disapproving head shaking]

Acceptable to a point, a Stormraven is a huge model, the cardboard box is obviously not.

Don't do it at tourneys though.

The Night Stalker wrote:This topic came up breifly in a conversation I was having yesterday, basically how do you feel about counts as/proxies? With the new GK codex being released the problem of counts as armies at my FLGS is probably going to rise exponentially. I for one like custom models/conversion work as long as the model is an acceptable representation of a codex entry or other RAW unit. However, It gets me very annoyed when a player puts his ugly vanilla marines down and then states he will be playing BA,SW, or now ugh GK. Specifically there are a number of TFG's at my FLGS who did this constantly with BA and I already hear them talking about buying the GK dex. One of them also started a huge argument at a local tourney because he was trying to use a small cardboard box as a stormraven.

How do you guys feel about proxies? And if you allow it how far do you let it go?

Using vanilla marines as another marine chapter is not proxying at all. As long as the models have the correct wargear the paint scheme is irrelevant.

Cardboard boxes are simply unacceptable to me though.

As long as I can look at it and go oh that has x I dont care.
Stuff like this nob is a terminator is ok if i am just testing.
My buddy is still building his IG so we have been proxiying army men for guard till as he gets them built.
If you want to run blue BA or red UM I could care less as long as there wargear is wysiwyg. I made some raptors using regular jumpacks.

Proxy = okay for a couple test games, otherwise no.

Counts-as: Must not be confusing, must be logical, you must not be blatantly trying to bandwagon-jump with minimal effort of cheap-out and get questionable counts-as.

WYSIWYG is required. A logical reasoning for the counting as abilities in game is also a must.

"Mind if I use this Demon Prince as a Greater Demon?"

No Problem. Practically the same damn thing anyway.

"Hey, I repainted all my Imperial Fists as GKs, and put some CCW on them, but I don't have a dreadknight yet and I'd like to use this Penitent Engine. Okay?"

Yup. Clear effort not to 'double dip' armies and make proper conversions. Okay by me.

"Mind if I use these Lego AT-ATs as Sentinels?"

Er, well, a little hokey but at least you're using the source material. Lawl. I will ask you to confirm with General Viers before deployment and commencing any firing, however.

"My dex and rulebook are printed PDFs, but my army, while assembled, is legit but unpainted. Okay?"

Sure. Let me give you the number of some professional painters I know so I'm not facing a codex grey army next time.

"Mind if I proxy these Altoid tins as Rhinos?"

Yes I do. Buy the model or make an effort at a conversion.

"I'm switching to GK. My fully painted Ork force will stand in for actual GKs until such time as I actually buy/trade for GK models. I don't know when that will be, because I'm playing my Orks in a tournament this weekend and the next"

They they're not GKs, are they? Grab your ork dex and I'll play your ork army. Battlewagons like mass lascannon fire, right?

I'm pretty easy. As long as I don't feel I'm being taken advantage of, I'll allow it. But if I think you're being disingenuous or sleazy in your proxying, you can find another table to play at.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:Cardboard box-Bad

Simply grabbing the newest rules, and using normal marines as proxies-bad

Counting Steve the Sergeant as a captian until you finish the model- Acceptable.

QFT

Im usually pretty relaxed about this. I wouldn't be bothered if an opponent needed to invoke the box as say, one model he forgot in a friendly game. I played a 'cron guy who had to do just that as a monolith stand in recently, it was a fun game.

But were I in a tournament that kind of stuff wouldn't fly, and neither would playing a different army using an entirely new set of rules. Its just against the spirit of the game.

This stuff bugs me to no end unless its pretty close, like using one space marine chapter as another. When models were desigined with one use and used as another I find it frustrating.

I don't mind them as I have one of them as an army. I've got a Blood Angels counts-as army (yes I'm one of those guys) mostly because of the Dreadnought love in that book. I myself have 10 of them currently. I don't particularly care for the fluff of the Blood Angels, but enjoy modeling projects.

As for others, I don't hold a double standard. I'm not sure who it was, but I saw an excellent idea Kroot army using Dark Eldar rules. Fantastic conversions, and gives new life to them.

As long as it is clear, and not completely far-fetched on what the army/equipment is, and the player lets others know what everything is, it can make the game more fun!

Can you justify it?
If yes, then i would accept it as a count as

I posted this in the thread concerning codex hopping, but I think it's appropriate here, too.

I don't have a problem with Counts as. Proxy with friends is usually Ok as it's generally a 'I'm seeing if these guys work before I buy them" situation that isn't abused.

I started with Black Templars. Almost of my Space Marines are painted as Black Templars (With a small, but growing Crimson Fist army). After playing them for 2 years, I needed a break and switched to Codex Space Marines for a few months. I even added a few parts to my army that Black Templars don't get: Whirlwinds, Land Raider Redeemer, namely. I painted them as Templars.

I even added 2 super heavies and an IG "Plasma Flinger" Lemun Russ, all painted as Templars, for Apoc games.

I don't consider myself a Flavor of the Month guy. Just an 'I'm bored with Templars right now but don't want to drop $600 on another army" guy. However, does that make me better than a "Flavor of the Month" guy? No. Does that make a guy that would refuse to play his Templars as anything but Templars better than me? No.

If someone wants to play their space wolves as Blood Angels, I would give it a go. Especially if it was a friend. I'd need to be very clear on what was what, but I would ask that they make reasonable substitutions. "This wolf rider is a scout and this wolf rider is a Land Speeder" would not work for me. But that would be the same for any proxy situation. Get it close, please. Counts as does not equal Proxy, and Proxy needs to be reasonable. That's all I really ask.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm fine with 'counts as' as long as it's approaching wysiwyg and/or is badass.

I had no negative reactions to my biker boss' counts-as attack squig.

Vandez wrote:I'm fine with 'counts as' as long as it's approaching wysiwyg and/or is badass.

Exactly. Cool 'Squig' by the way!

People generally overlook modeling weirdness if it's cool.

I don't really care personally, as long as it's obvious what's going on. I prefer to play with opponents with nicely painted armies, as I try to paint my minis nicely. I don't care if someone's Vanilla Marines > Space Wolves > Whatever Marines. They're still Marines as long as they have the same weapons options.

The one thing I can't stand is modeling nightmare armies. Armies with metal Killa Kanz falling off of their bases, some missing entirely, some missing arms, infantry units half painted or missing entirely, and everything looks like ass. There are easy ways to paint an entire army to an acceptable standard. There are even easier ways to assemble your models completely. There's no excuse for showing up to play with half of your minis falling apart unless you dropped your mini case crossing the street and it was hit by a bus.