Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Nids are just like any other predator including humans. They eat to live they are just very very hungry and very very good at getting food.

Orks were created to fight. From their opinions they simply don't care. They don't have a good or evil. They fight for the same reason we play or watch movies or breath.

Tau feel that they are good. They want to create a empire in which that the people they consider good (the tau) are in charge and can therefor chose the greatest good. whether or not the people they ask actually want to be part of their empire matters little to them.

Eldar do not care about the other races. they care about other Eldar and feel they are above others. because of this they dont try to save other races because to them that would be like sending firefighters into a burning house to try to save the termites in the wall. this does not makes them just as evil as any firefighter who is unwilling to risk this life for that of a termite. because no matter how small a life is still a life.

IoM are out for themselves. They act just like humans, and like humans some are kind/benevolent and some are cruel/mean. alot of the powerful people in the imperium are also very corrupt so...

Chaos is difficult to comprehend because it is just that, chaotic. A lot of them are cruel but does this really make them evil? Cruel is all they are, they are literally cruelness itself given form in a alternate dimension. I really could not say if this makes them evil or not. It is simply what they are.

Necrons are also difficult to comprehend. whereas orks and nids are simply driven by bodily needs necrones are not affected by these things. I think to answer this question you have to decide if a robot built to kill is evil. I do not think it is (the creator may be...). Therefor a necron warrior who has no will (like a robot) is not evil. I also do not think the c'tan can be called evil they feed on the stars but thats how they eat. I think they like the eldar simply think the lifeforms of the universe are insignificant and that it does not matter at all to them so long as they can feed.

I think that just like in real life good and evil are ambiguous I think almost nothing aside from single actions can be classified as either and even with just actions it would be insanely difficult.

Actually I like that there is no true good or evil in 40k it makes the game seam more real.

my $0.02

Nids are just hungry.
Orks are hard-wired to fight
Dark Eldar just want to get some.
Necrons untimately just didn't want to die and caught the wrong end of a con.
Eldar are dying, and are kind of pissed about that.
Tau are a bunch of commies, great in theory, kind of brutal in practice.

All of the xenos represent different aspects of humanity. The IoM, marines, CSM, etc... are just more iterations on the same theme.

GW's alignment scale goes more by Dungeons and Dragon's first editon alignment or Chronicles of Amber. It's Law vs Chaos. This is why there are forces of Order and forces of Chaos in WHFantasy. The backstory is not a fight of good and evil. There are no evil Gods, just the chaos Gods. The Emperor didn't fight to bring good to the universe, he fought to bring Law and Order to the universe.

You really can't name nids or orks good, they're just bad but they can't help it ^^.

Kilkrazy wrote:

winnertakesall wrote:Tau have concentration camps, and camps where they work POW's to death.

No they don't.

Yes, they do. They put captured Elysians in work camps where they worked them to death, in the Damoclese offensive. Can't recall which IA though.

Medium of Death wrote:The necrontyr are clearly evil.

1: Start war with an advanced benevolent race out of jealousy
2: Give form to god like beings in the hope that they help defeat the old ones
3: Become servants of their new gods, help harvest the galaxy

The necrons sealed their own fate. They are fueled by their bitter and twisted natures, driven forward by insane vampiric gods. The necrons want to extinguish life as we know it because they no longer have it.

Thank you. I was getting worried that people were giving Necrons a write-off as if they didn't choose the path they went down.

tavoittamaton wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:The necrontyr are clearly evil.

1: Start war with an advanced benevolent race out of jealousy
2: Give form to god like beings in the hope that they help defeat the old ones
3: Become servants of their new gods, help harvest the galaxy

The necrons sealed their own fate. They are fueled by their bitter and twisted natures, driven forward by insane vampiric gods. The necrons want to extinguish life as we know it because they no longer have it.

Thank you. I was getting worried that people were giving Necrons a write-off as if they didn't choose the path they went down.

Yh, if the necrons aren't evil then no'one is!

Tau are good guys for sure.

If it weren't for the Imperiums dogma they would see that the Tau adhere to the same tenants the Emperor preached. A manifest destiny, advancing technology, and overall promotion of good in the galaxy. The thing is, at this point, the IoM is as evil as it is good. Constant Chaos incursions, mutant rebellions, endless cults, and insane amounts of internal strife put the IoM on the very fringe of good or evil out of necessity.

The Tau aren't good, they just have a great PR team. But the cracks in the "official story" are beginning to show, as we are getting more and more evidence that the Tau have some skeletons in their closet too - like the Nimbosa Crusade and the circumstances surrounding the assimilation of the Vespids.

tavoittamaton wrote:The Tau aren't good, they just have a great PR team. But the cracks in the "official story" are beginning to show, as we are getting more and more evidence that the Tau have some skeletons in their closet too - like the Nimbosa Crusade and the circumstances surrounding the assimilation of the Vespids.

It could totally be that way. For all we know Farsight was freed from mind control when his Ethereals died. But it could also be he is weilding a Necron/Daemon weapon that corrupts.

They need to come out with more Tau fluff to describe whether they will remain enlightned good guys or are a cover for something more grimdark.

Reading the new Dark Eldar codex suggests they are good guys. Seriously, they recieved help from the DE and then in return sent thousands of Tau to Commoragh as a cultural exchange not knowing exactly what that entailed for the poor volunteers. Then when realizing what the true nature of the DE was they tried to stop them only to be duped into losing a planets entire population.

Medium of Death wrote:
Lastly, I'm going to pitch in (once again) to say the T'au, at this moment in time, do not use 'concentration camps'.

I can't remember where i read it, but this quote about a Tau invasion of an Imperial World (I have the passage saved on my pc, along with lot's of other fluff, why I am not sure, but ahh well)

'The Tau forces under the command of O'var (Commander Brightsword), began the invasion with a landing of overwhelming numbers. They soon controlled most of the world and started a systematic extermination of the populace.'

winnertakesall wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:
Lastly, I'm going to pitch in (once again) to say the T'au, at this moment in time, do not use 'concentration camps'.

I can't remember where i read it, but this quote about a Tau invasion of an Imperial World (I have the passage saved on my pc, along with lot's of other fluff, why I am not sure, but ahh well)

'The Tau forces under the command of O'var (Commander Brightsword), began the invasion with a landing of overwhelming numbers. They soon controlled most of the world and started a systematic extermination of the populace.'

You seem to be referring to the Nimbosa Crusade (see my link in previous post).

tavoittamaton wrote:

winnertakesall wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:
Lastly, I'm going to pitch in (once again) to say the T'au, at this moment in time, do not use 'concentration camps'.

I can't remember where i read it, but this quote about a Tau invasion of an Imperial World (I have the passage saved on my pc, along with lot's of other fluff, why I am not sure, but ahh well)

'The Tau forces under the command of O'var (Commander Brightsword), began the invasion with a landing of overwhelming numbers. They soon controlled most of the world and started a systematic extermination of the populace.'

You seem to be referring to the Nimbosa Crusade (see my link in previous post).

That's it! You must have read my mind.

If you bother to read the whole story, you will find out that Commander Brightsword shot up an IoM military column he trapped in a ravine, and was punished for excessive violence.

Kilkrazy wrote:If you bother to read the whole story, you will find out that Commander Brightsword shot up an IoM military column he trapped in a ravine, and was punished for excessive violence.

I did bother to read the whole story, I also read several pages linked to it. The Tau wipe out those who don't follow them, they worked captured elysians to death, Brightsword was eventually recalled, but not before he has wiped out the population of planet and slaughtered fleeing IoM forces. The Tau sterilize humans so that they can't reproduce, and see other races as inferior even those with their ideas. the IoM isn't good, slaughtering alien races without communication, nor are the Tau. Possibly the only morally good race are Eldar, Orks, although no exactly a race the GK. Although the whole idea of 40k is no-one is good, and it comes down to dirty tricks to decide who wins.

You cant say that nids are evil just because they want to eat every thing. They must eat to survive like the IoM must defend themselves to survive.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Reading the new Dark Eldar codex suggests they are good guys. Seriously, they recieved help from the DE and then in return sent thousands of Tau to Commoragh as a cultural exchange not knowing exactly what that entailed for the poor volunteers. Then when realizing what the true nature of the DE was they tried to stop them only to be duped into losing a planets entire population.

That proves they are more stupid than good. Kinda like when they greeted the Necrons in celebration, hailing them as their saviors from the Tyranids. They were subsequently exterminated by said Necrons.

Kilkrazy wrote:If you bother to read the whole story, you will find out that Commander Brightsword shot up an IoM military column he trapped in a ravine, and was punished for excessive violence.

The Tau Empire is oppressive and tyrannical. They preach "live and let live" and "peace in the galaxy" when they are neutralizing anyone who disagrees or stands in their way. Yes, Brightsword was punished, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was because they did not condone the morality of his actions. It could very well be that the Tau were fearful that his aggression would spark unnecessary hostility with the Imperium. If you've got an uneasy truce with one of the most powerful forces in the galaxy, you don't want someone fething it up. However, that does not mean that the Tau don't eventually want to convert (or kill, if they won't convert) humanity to their cause. They may want to eliminate their other enemies (Tyranids, Orks, etc.) before they go after the Imperium of Man.

The Tau are just as bad as the Imperium. They believe everyone should believe what they believe and if they don't then they do not have a place in the galaxy.

yup, every major race the T'au have encountered, they foolishly greet them as friends and then get slaughtered.


the T'au are going to get themselves killed with that mentality.

I still think that the Necrontyr are judged a bit too harshly. They were dying as a race and were jealous of the Old Ones. Those are both totally reasonable emotions, though I understand that jealousy is not an entirely admirable or honorable emotion. You have to think of the race as a whole. They are watching their families die out of debilitating cancer, and are in fear of the total extermination of their race. They cut a deal with a bunch of star gods who tricked them and enslaved them. You also have to think that this is being done on a racial level. Who would be making the decisions for our entire race if we were in a similar position, our world leaders right? Would you trust them to make a good decision that would be to everyone's benefit? Have they done a good job of making decisions so far? You can draw similarities to current world events, and see that the people in power do not generally make decisions that benefit the whole, they tend to make decisions that they feel will be of benefit to them.

The IoM and the Tau cannot even be compared in terms of what they have done.

Calling the Tau a tyrannical empire is about as far from fluff as it gets. They share techonology, avoid genocides, and use diplomacy to spread their empire before resorting to war.

Once occupied, a planet is still allowed to worship it's god(s) but must submit to the Tau government. In exchange, they are allowed the use of superior technology for crops, cities, etc.

The Damocles Gulf and Taros didn't get conquered they weighed their options and chose to side with the Tau over being oppressed by the IoM.

Plus, the Imperium has killed far more of it's own people (both innocent and guilty) than the Tau ever have.

Tau are pretty much as close to good guys as you can get.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The IoM and the Tau cannot even be compared in terms of what they have done.

Calling the Tau a tyrannical empire is about as far from fluff as it gets. They share techonology, avoid genocides, and use diplomacy to spread their empire before resorting to war.

Once occupied, a planet is still allowed to worship it's god(s) but must submit to the Tau government. In exchange, they are allowed the use of superior technology for crops, cities, etc.

The Damocles Gulf and Taros didn't get conquered they weighed their options and chose to side with the Tau over being oppressed by the IoM.

Plus, the Imperium has killed far more of it's own people (both innocent and guilty) than the Tau ever have.

Tau are pretty much as close to good guys as you can get.

Er....that sounds pretty tyrannical to me.

tyr-an-ny
[tir-uh-nee]
–noun, plural -nies.
1. arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority.
2. the government or rule of a tyrant or absolute ruler.
3. a state ruled by a tyrant or absolute ruler.
4. oppressive or unjustly severe government on the part of any ruler.
5. undue severity or harshness.
6. a tyrannical act or proceeding.

And what if Taros or the Damocles Gulf would have refused the Tau's offer? The Tau would have declared war and probably killed alot of innocent Imperial civilians. Really benevolent, peace-loving guys; "Let's go to war when we don't get our way." They're the epitome of bigotry and imperialistic hostility. I guarantee you half the alien races that side with the Tau do so because they're afraid of what will happen if they don't.

Well, they didn't, so your point is irrelevant.

It's all very well saying "But if this", and "Suppose that", but in the Background forum you are supposed to look at the actual fluff.

What if the IM was jolly hockey sticks? What if Grey Knights were made of blancmange?

Kilkrazy wrote:Well, they didn't, so your point is irrelevant.

It's all very well saying "But if this", and "Suppose that", but in the Background forum you are supposed to look at the actual fluff.

What if the IM was jolly hockey sticks? What if Grey Knights were made of blancmange?

Not really. It's entirely relevant that the Tau are imperialistic, tryannical bigots who resort to violence when they don't get their way. Not the image of "good guys" in any way, shape, or form.

On another note, speculating what could/would have happened in the fluff based on the motivations and behavior of those involved when introduced with a separate scenario is alot different than speculating what Grey Knights are made of .

Darth Bob wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Well, they didn't, so your point is irrelevant.

It's all very well saying "But if this", and "Suppose that", but in the Background forum you are supposed to look at the actual fluff.

What if the IM was jolly hockey sticks? What if Grey Knights were made of blancmange?

Not really, it's entirely relevant that the Tau are imperialistic, tryannical bigots who resort to violence when they don't get their way. Not the image of "good guys" in any way, shape, or form.

Relative to the imperium, it's pretty good. The imperium resort to violence just because you're different and won't give a chance to settle things piecefully. No, Tau aren't perfect, but they're nicer than many other things in 40k.

Absolute rule from the center of the Tau Empire is a part of their manifest destiny. They don't do this because they wish to bring every race to it's knees.. They do this because they sincerely believe it benefits the galaxy. They act as an enlightened society (from their perspective) and bring peace through diplomacy.

The Damocles Gulf Crusade wasn't a heroic salvation for the poor oppressed humans. It was a cleansing by fire. The IoM waged a genocidal campaign against the humans that willingly joined the Tau. As for the Tau "invaders" they only had settlements in the gulf with barebones military force. The war against the Tau didn't start until the Imperium pushed into the Tau Empire's more native S'ept worlds.


I would hardly call even the Farsight Enclave a Tyrannical ruling body, and to my knowledge Farsight has exclusive rule.



Tau are good guys. At least for now.

Mr Nobody wrote:Relative to the imperium, it's pretty good. The imperium resort to violence just because you're different and won't give a chance to settle things piecefully. No, Tau aren't perfect, but they're nicer than many other things in 40k.

I agree, they're probably the lesser evil between the two, so I retract my statement that they are as bad as the Imperium. However, just because they aren't as evil as one thing does not make them good.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Absolute rule from the center of the Tau Empire is a part of their manifest destiny. They don't do this because they wish to bring every race to it's knees.. They do this because they sincerely believe it benefits the galaxy. They act as an enlightened society (from their perspective) and bring peace through diplomacy.
The Damocles Gulf Crusade wasn't a heroic salvation for the poor oppressed humans. It was a cleansing by fire. The IoM waged a genocidal campaign against the humans that willingly joined the Tau. As for the Tau "invaders" they only had settlements in the gulf with barebones military force. The war against the Tau didn't start until the Imperium pushed into the Tau Empire's more native S'ept worlds.

Red = So? It's still tyranny.
Blue = That may not be their intention, but that's exactly what they're doing.
Green = You're justifying your imperialistic actions by saying it is the right thing to do...sounds like a certain guy who started a certain war in the 1940's.
Cyan = And railguns...and work camps...

I'm not saying the Imperium are any better, nor good. They're some nasty buggers. However, them being bad doesn't make the Tau any more good. I will agree that the Tau are leaning the most towards being good guys, but they're still, in a nutshell, "join us or die".

P.S. I recall the Tau ending of DoW: Dark Crusade.


Yeah...re-education camps. Sterilizing the population. Feeding the excess to Knarlocs. They sure do sound like good, peace-loving guys.

Sounds like the Tau aren't very happy when you change your minds.

Kilkrazy wrote:Well, they didn't, so your point is irrelevant.

It's all very well saying "But if this", and "Suppose that", but in the Background forum you are supposed to look at the actual fluff.

What if the IM was jolly hockey sticks? What if Grey Knights were made of blancmange?

I agree with Kilkrazy. We have "actual fluff" sources that show how the Tau respond to worlds that do not submit to their authority, and we should ignore those if ever a question is raised about how a world that submitted would have been treated if they had resisted instead.

Alternatively, can anyone point me out a Tau invasion force that went all "aww shucks, we'll go home if it means that much to you" when they encountered resistance? Because that would certainly disprove the whole "I'm up in your planet, violating your self-determination" thing they've got going on, and we can put the matter to rest.

Darth Bob wrote:Not really. It's entirely relevant that the Tau are imperialistic, tryannical bigots who resort to violence when they don't get their way. Not the image of "good guys" in any way, shape, or form.

This. Did Imperialism somehow come back into vogue, morally-speaking? I thought we were on that whole "national sovereignty" kick (*does not include nations in Northern Africa or the Middle East).

I will never understand why people use an objective moral criterion with the IoM and a relative moral criterion with all of the other races. If you aren't the IoM, you get one of the following passes for everything you do so you're not "the bad guys":
- you don't know any better
- you were made this way
- your morality is different
- you think you're doing the right thing

Interestingly enough, none of these arguments stand when you take the IoM out of the picture.

Why don't we use the same scrutiny with the Tau as we do the IoM? Why do we judge Tau based on their PR campaign (intentions/goals/different morality/etc) instead of on the actions they take?

To my knowledge the Tau are the only force that will accept an enemie's surrender, without killing/enslaving/eating or otherwise treating the said POW, the fact that the Tau accept races other than their own to carry arms and have homes and professions withon their empire also is unique in the 40k universe...perhaps too unique, since it seems to attract alot of bile and suspicion about their goals and motives.
And as to the Dawn of war ending, well Kronos was mainly ( at the time of the war ) a Tau planet, so perhaps that is how they deal with rebellions from less then loyal members....hmm I wonder how the IOM would deal with a planet that had rebel elements dwelling there...hm maybe alot of death and purges or perhaps even mass bombing of suspected sympathizers, quite a bit more of a savage response, and against their very own race.
In my opinion the Tau are not a goody-goody empire, and they will deal harshly with rebels and turncoats, so do not mistake thier kindness for weakness, they are a EMPIRE afterall.
But they are also the only race that seems to respect some of the rules of war we cling too today, and that in my opinion makes them the best of the 40k universe, the lightest grey in a sea of blackness.
again thats my take on it.

If you are attaching morals to toy soldiers it seems to me that some have forgotten the middle (er i guess middle, maybe no ground?) ground.
To me Tyranids and especially orks come out as amoral. They aren't good they aren't evil, they just do things because that's how they are. They don't have a moral code.
The imperium to me are immoral, they preach defending humanity, have a repressive regime and do acts which are morally questionable (for the greater good ).
You cannot justify a "good" tag on the imperium with they do bad things because they have to. Being Good is about making the right choices, not the practical choices.
On a similar note, a group of people who run round saying "join or die" are good? feth me, i dunno how that works???