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ElCheezus wrote:I'm not sure if paying 75 points for FNP is worth it. If you're facing a huge weight of fire or wounds, that's why you have two wounds. As IG, when I try to take down terminators it's either with Lascannon, Plasma, or blobs. Even the blobs really count on power weapons more than the regular weight of attacks.

If you play with paladins and use the apothecary, I suggest keeping track of how many wounds you roll FNP for, to give you an idea of what you're getting back. Each person's meta is different, so it's possible some people will love it. I don't think I'd have a place for it, though.

It's not worth it. t4, 2w and a 2+ save means that it is going to take an absurd amount of Boltgun shots (or their equivalent) to do anything. If paladins die it will be to ID, PWs, and AP1/2 weaponry.

Shep wrote:

rovian wrote:Well here's my problem marbo steps out of the shadow and blows up 7 pallies or they stay away as pycannons are 24 in range so unfortanetaly shep there going to have to close to shoot and staying from melta is increasingly diffcult.

Yeah dude, i know. I don't run a single terminator of any variety in my competitive lists. I'm just trying to make some lemonade for Kasrkin Legion. They can't handle meltaspam without a 3+ save (thus, shrouding and some distance)

Kasrkinlegion wrote:This is what is starting to get me unendingly frustrated with GW's products. Without fail, every model I want to buy and paint or think looks good, ends up being a liability on the table. Maybe I'm cursed because the models I happen to like, aren't the ones GW wants to make over powered. It seems to me that there are just far better options for GK's than any terminator armored model without a stormshield in the GK army (which leaves you with Draigo). But here I am with two boxes of terminators raring to go. I have done this before, and all that ends up happening is I get frustrated with 40k and quit it for two years. I've spent too much money on this stuff these days to have this happen again, but I also know I will be pissed beyond recognition if my $100 worth of models gets me tabled every game.

terminators can be your pet unit. The troop terminators are an acceptable alternative to strike squads as a scoring unit. You have to be very disciplined and understand that in the hostile world of 40k, non storm shield terminators have low survivability when within 12-18" of mech spam, but outside of that range, they can have quite a high survivability. Almost every HQ choice in the book is forced to run terminator armor, and so you can use these two units as bunkers for that HQ choice. Respect special weapons, run halberds, stay in cover, think about getting stealth, and they are a perfectly serviceable side-grade in a competitive list. Paladins aren't really.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:Okay rant over... these suggestions are actually quite helpful. Seems something like teleporting them behind chimeras will be a great tactic. I like the idea of flanking with them, keeping them on the opposite side of the table from your opponent (which could also make them heavy points denial as well). Having a librarian smokescreen them seems like the best option. Use them as a shrouded shooting platform until you can get close enough for a charge.

Yeah, teleporting with them just flat out isn't necessary. They can be deployed safely and are resilient to all kinds of shooting with shrouding, and they have move and shoot psycannons. Just deploy them, so that you don't risk scattering them in to the 'kill zone'. Once your long range fire support has softened up the rest of the opponents force. It will gradually get safer and safer to make aggressive moves with the termies.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:
Edit:
Actually looks like the librarian suggestion has some problems.

1) Paladins seem only worth taking if you have Draigo. Draigo seems like he will make a group of Paladins totally own if he's with them due to his storm shield.
2) Librarians are 150 points for basically the same stat line as a paladin. I know they can do all kinds of wicked shananigans, but with only two wounds, and a crappy save (unless you spend even more points and get them a staff or something), librarians seem like they'll be a heavy liability.

Well, you do have to take an HQ and what HQ were you thinking about taking?

1) Paladins just aren't really worth taking, unless your opponent and yourself are playing under the banner of 'fluffy'. Draigo doesn't change that.
2) Those wicked shenanigans can be absolutely backbreaking to your opponent. Shrouding on a psyfleman dread that is standing behind a smoked rhino is uberfrustrating. Stacking a psychic hood with reinforced aegis can really just lock down enemy psychic powers. You've got a template jaws of the world wolf... and access to servo-skulls

It should probably be stated again that grey knights are not an 'assault' army. Every model has a storm bolter, storm shields are essentially non-existent. Every unit has access to a dynamic, flexible, master-key type of gun (the psycannon) they now can mech up....

I'm not saying they are terrible at CC, but their CC is what they use after they have shaped the battlefield with their shooting. Looking at the librarian and lamenting that he isn't a crap-kicking assault beast means that you are missing what the GK are going to be doing successfully... beating up on units that have been critically weakened by dreadnought, psycannon and storm bolter fire.

I agree with you if you fell you actually need termies but your ideas are the best so far.

Always give a guy the warding staff so he can eat those S8+ Ap1/2 shots. With Draigo along, that unit is not going anywhere.

Warding stave only works in close combat. Against shooting, he'll just have his regulare 5++.

Amaya wrote:It's not worth it. t4, 2w and a 2+ save means that it is going to take an absurd amount of Boltgun shots (or their equivalent) to do anything. If paladins die it will be to ID, PWs, and AP1/2 weaponry.

Given their points cost a torrent of small arms fire is still a viable way to knock a few wounds off the unit. In an MSU unit of 5, it's very much worth it, especially if your assault element has a high enough initiative to get swipes at I6 or I5.

Something that 'Nid players do with their multi-wound T4 models should be your watchwords: limit exposure. Unless you've got stealth and cover, don't use them in the center of the enemy army, use them on a flank. Their comabt prowess means they'll rarely remain in CC, but if the enemy has a deathstar consider being in CC with that deathstar a lot safer than eating a ton of melta hits.

Savnock wrote:

Amaya wrote:It's not worth it. t4, 2w and a 2+ save means that it is going to take an absurd amount of Boltgun shots (or their equivalent) to do anything. If paladins die it will be to ID, PWs, and AP1/2 weaponry.

Given their points cost a torrent of small arms fire is still a viable way to knock a few wounds off the unit. In an MSU unit of 5, it's very much worth it, especially if your assault element has a high enough initiative to get swipes at I6 or I5.

You would need to eat an insane amount of small arms fire to make it worth having an apothecary.
#1. You only save those wounds 50% of the time.
#2. You are just better off just taking another model with 2 wounds than the apothecary.
#3. You should equip all of your paladins differently so you can spread out the wounds.
#4 As said above, everything that will kill paladins ignores FNP.

The only way to keep them alive is to have Draigo along and eat every strength 8, AP 1/2 shot.

Either that or load them up in a stormraven or a Land Raider.

Oh there's no denying that Draigo makes the Paladins really good, but if I was going to go with an Apothecary, I would only include it in the unit Draigo and the Librarian were going to be in.

Basically one big unit.

As I said before, small arms fire will not kill Paladins reliably.

Let's put it this way. 600 points of Guardsman firing Lasguns at 640 points of Paladins. Rapid fire.

That's 120 Guardsman, 240 shots.

120 hit
40 wound
6.667 unsaved wounds

FNP would only save you 3.33 wounds or about 90 points worth of Paladins. And that's from 120 Guardsman rapid firing at you!


I did a little game with a friend to see how well Paladins hold up against hordes. 10 Paladins (4 Psycannons, Brotherhood Banner, Apocathery, paladins are all unique via halberds/hammer/mastercrafting) vs 87 Shoota Ork Boyz /w 3 Power Klaw Nobz.

By the time the Ork player managed to get into CC with me I had already killed off a unit of Boyz. I ended up losing 2 Paladins (stinking Power Klaws), and had one wound left on 5 them. Orks were tabled.

Paladins have amazing survivability. Its the stinking s8+ AP1/AP2 crap wrecks them.


Edit: And for comparison.

5 Paladins, 2 Psycannons (all unique) = 315 points
10 Grey Knights, 2 Psycannons = 220 points

60 BS4 S4 vs Paladins = 40 Hits, 20 Wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds, odds of a Paladin failing all 2/4 saves are 2.78% (assuming (1/6)*(1/6) is correct for calculating that). Pretty high chance that the Paladins will come out all alive.

60 BS4 S4 vs Grey Knights = 40 Hits, 20 Wounds, 6.67 unsaved wounds.

Even if a Paladin dies to that small arms fire they would only lose 55 to 75 points of models while the regular GK would lose 133 to 153 points
and potentially break.

12 BS4 S8 AP1 vs Paladins = 9 Hits, 7.5 wounds, 6.25 unsaved without cover, 3.75 unsaved with cover.

12 BS4 S8 AP1 vs Grey Knights = 9 Hits, 7.5 wounds, 7.5 dead without cover, 3.75 unsaved with cover.

Paladins are much more survivable vs small arms fire and can fire more shots with their Psycannons thanks to relentless. Grey Knights are more survivable vs heavy weapons and are easier to transport.

It comes down to the general and the opponent's list.

What about Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tau? It's not uncommon for their anti infantry units to throw out 30+, 40+ wounds a turn from long range; and they usually have 2 or 3 squads that can do that.

In a 5 man pally group, I wouldn't use an apothecary, but if you're actually using a 10 man group with Draigo etc, you probably should.
I mean, you're already pissing away 800+ points of your army in 1 unit... you might as well go for the gusto and protect that unit as much as possible

Thing is paladins are +1 wound +1 ws terminators for 15 points. Look at them as such and you just use them like a slightly smaller unit of terminators. Make it so there are too many targets for the str 8. It is the same idea I have with my tyranids. Go ahead shoot my t4 3 wound models with your strength 8, they are getting a cover save and that is not shots at my big nasties over there.

I have major issues vs DE with my Paladin army. Too many AP2 weapons and not enough long range stuff in my army. Psyfleman Dreads will help, but then I have to cut my Paladins a bit.

Puscifer wrote:I have major issues vs DE with my Paladin army. Too many AP2 weapons and not enough long range stuff in my army. Psyfleman Dreads will help, but then I have to cut my Paladins a bit.

Anything with lots of S8 AP2 will give you hell. And I think Sisters would to, too many AP1 Flamers and Excorcists to deal with.

Amaya wrote:

Puscifer wrote:I have major issues vs DE with my Paladin army. Too many AP2 weapons and not enough long range stuff in my army. Psyfleman Dreads will help, but then I have to cut my Paladins a bit.

Anything with lots of S8 AP2 will give you hell. And I think Sisters would to, too many AP1 Flamers and Excorcists to deal with.

The sisters I played, and play against use melta guns over flamers. And yes, getting your but kicked in by massed melta and AP1 bolters sucks. 11 pts for power armor makes for a heavily outnumbered GK army, then you start adding the faith powers into it...

Amaya -

I did a little game with a friend to see how well Paladins hold up against hordes. 10 Paladins (4 Psycannons, Brotherhood Banner, Apocathery, paladins are all unique via halberds/hammer/mastercrafting) vs 87 Shoota Ork Boyz /w 3 Power Klaw Nobz.

By the time the Ork player managed to get into CC with me I had already killed off a unit of Boyz. I ended up losing 2 Paladins (stinking Power Klaws), and had one wound left on 5 them. Orks were tabled.

Just curious how did this setup come about? Did you guys start from your own table edges and advance forth? Did the paladins DS in? Im curious mainly because that seems like a serious overload of ass kicking on the GK side. Yes paladins are better terminators, but boyz should still be, in most cases, the answer to them. Mainly because of the PK attacks and ID. I could see them getting 1 maybe 2 turns of shooting off before they were in assault, and 87 boyz +3 pk/nobs seems excessive, especially to get tabled.

notabot187 wrote:

Amaya wrote:

Puscifer wrote:I have major issues vs DE with my Paladin army. Too many AP2 weapons and not enough long range stuff in my army. Psyfleman Dreads will help, but then I have to cut my Paladins a bit.

Anything with lots of S8 AP2 will give you hell. And I think Sisters would to, too many AP1 Flamers and Excorcists to deal with.

The sisters I played, and play against use melta guns over flamers. And yes, getting your but kicked in by massed melta and AP1 bolters sucks. 11 pts for power armor makes for a heavily outnumbered GK army, then you start adding the faith powers into it...

OFF TOPIC /
...and it's not a huge help but we get a 5+ save to ANY psychic powers being used against us...for nothing and army wide :-D Don't always count on it as it's a 2/6 chance but it's better then a slap in the face!
OFF TOPIC /

Back on topic..

KingCracker wrote:Amaya -

I did a little game with a friend to see how well Paladins hold up against hordes. 10 Paladins (4 Psycannons, Brotherhood Banner, Apocathery, paladins are all unique via halberds/hammer/mastercrafting) vs 87 Shoota Ork Boyz /w 3 Power Klaw Nobz.

By the time the Ork player managed to get into CC with me I had already killed off a unit of Boyz. I ended up losing 2 Paladins (stinking Power Klaws), and had one wound left on 5 them. Orks were tabled.

Just curious how did this setup come about? Did you guys start from your own table edges and advance forth? Did the paladins DS in? Im curious mainly because that seems like a serious overload of ass kicking on the GK side. Yes paladins are better terminators, but boyz should still be, in most cases, the answer to them. Mainly because of the PK attacks and ID. I could see them getting 1 maybe 2 turns of shooting off before they were in assault, and 87 boyz +3 pk/nobs seems excessive, especially to get tabled.

Not as unlikely as it seems. that paladin squad had 16 S7 shots, and 24 S4 shots. 2/3 of the shot hits, and a goodly portion wound. Orks without cover die. Even with cover, at least one squad should be dead before its even in range of the Holocaust power, and the squad that gets that on them is going to be hurt. In CC the paladins are going first, short of the hammers. 20 attacks, 2/3 hit (not even counting MC, which I don't want to do the math for), hammer hand makes 2/3 wound, so about 9 dead orks. That ork squad probably wasn't full strength when it assaulted, but even if it was... 20 shoota boyz in CC = 60 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds, Paladins assign 1 wound per model, with 5 doubling up, of that, the paladins should take 1-2 wound that weren't saved. Then the PK attacks, 4 attacks, 2 hits, probably 2 dead, but 5+ invul, or even 4+ (sword) could bounce one, so 1 dead paladin (since it happens at different initiative, and the squad is unique, it could even be put on wounded paladins). So the Orks lose by 7, lose 6 more models, dropping down to 15, which isn't enough during the paladins turn to do much, other than hopping the PK gets lucky. Then the 3rd squad assaults, and meets the same fate as above.

Its highly unlikely that both big mobs are going to assault the same target, when the GKs not only move away, they also can move laterally. So orks are pretty much forced to come one squad at a time due to getting in each others way/getting hung up on terrain. I also assumed the ork player didn't shoot, but even if they did, the shooting isn't very effective against 10 diverse multi wound models with FNP. I guess the orks not shooting is balanced by the fact I didn't use holcaust against them (large blast kills orks very well, if you are not bunched up at that range, there aren't going to get very models into assault on their turn), and by the fact that the GK player should be the one assaulting, less he be assaulted.

Ork boyz are such a soft target against paladins, there isn't even a good reason why the paladins shouldn't be the one going for the assault, and the orks moving back.

Now it seems like orks should be able to counter paladins with mob squads, but it simply isn't the case. All those scrub attacks, so useful against regular termies, have to deal 11 wounds that get past a 2+ save and FNP before even eliminating a single model. Even full ork mobs can't reliably do that. The PK attacks that each mob has, is only 4 attacks on the charge, that hit twice, and cause less than 2 wounds, which the GK player is going to put onto a wounded (due to wound allocation) or guys with 4++ (sword) or 2++ (warding staff, for just this situation). Each round, the orks should only ID one paladin, and against a full squad, it only gets 2 rounds of cc. If you send multiple ork mobs into combat against paladins, all you are doing is multiplying the number of fearless wounds you are going to be taking.

So regular ork boyz, even when equal points, don't kill paladins, nobs don't want to charge paladins due to force weapons, and shooting is ineffective against them. So how do orks counter the paladin death star? Repeated BW ramming? No, paladins will get out of the way and shoot your side armor, and the rollas aren't PWs, so they will bounce most of the hits (though the ones that get through ID). I would say if you can get kans into CC with paladins, you will get a favorable rate of exchange, assuming they don't get shot up coming in. Even then, you have to get lucky (WS 2 against 5)

So you're saying Orkz are pretty much screwed over by Paladins ;-)

gr1m_dan wrote:So you're saying Orkz are pretty much screwed over by Paladins ;-)

yes, that is the TL/DR version

Shep wrote:

There is a codex (well, two) already that does "assault terminators". They do it way better than grey knights, and you never want to try and make a copy of another codex's strong point. Where paladins get freakishly survivable, is when you post up midfield and shoot, while walking towards the enemy. Stay a respectful distance away from plasma and melta, escort a librarian with shrouding, possibly take an apothecary and two psycannons.


Your 'storm shield' becomes a 3+ cover save, the 2+ armor, FNP and 5 ablative wounds. Just keep putting out 8 psycannon shots, 4-6 storm bolter shots, holocaust and a smite/warp rift/vortex. Use a screen to protect you from strength 8 CC units, prioritize your opponents ap2 shooting and just take over table-center.

i was just wondering How they get a 3+ cover save. is it because of Shrouding? And i am by means arguing this.. i like the idea and wondering how exactly it works.

If you can manage to get a 4+ cover save, a librarian can give you shrouding. But if you cant manage that initial 4+, then its not worth it. Good thing is just about everything grants cover these days. Run your guys behind a rhino/razorback wall, get cover, librarian casts shrouding... almost as good a KFF.

KingCracker wrote:Amaya -

I did a little game with a friend to see how well Paladins hold up against hordes. 10 Paladins (4 Psycannons, Brotherhood Banner, Apocathery, paladins are all unique via halberds/hammer/mastercrafting) vs 87 Shoota Ork Boyz /w 3 Power Klaw Nobz.

By the time the Ork player managed to get into CC with me I had already killed off a unit of Boyz. I ended up losing 2 Paladins (stinking Power Klaws), and had one wound left on 5 them. Orks were tabled.

Just curious how did this setup come about? Did you guys start from your own table edges and advance forth? Did the paladins DS in? Im curious mainly because that seems like a serious overload of ass kicking on the GK side. Yes paladins are better terminators, but boyz should still be, in most cases, the answer to them. Mainly because of the PK attacks and ID. I could see them getting 1 maybe 2 turns of shooting off before they were in assault, and 87 boyz +3 pk/nobs seems excessive, especially to get tabled.

12" Deployment. I 'kited' him around for a couple of turns to kill off the first squad with shooting and I assaulted him, killing off most of the second squad in the first round of CC.

Oh ok so it was his error on letting you kite his boyz mobs around then, that makes more sense. I didnt want to come off as calling you a cheat/lier or anything, I was just curious on how the hell you killed so many Orks with 10 paladins. Thanks


Notabot - So your set up is a perfect situation to gain the best possible chance for killing boyz. Of course itll sound really impressive if you set it up like that. You need to remember that even though that COULD go down that way, playing the actual game probably wont let chances like that pop up often.

Back in the old Chaos Codex Thousand Sons had 2 wound Terminators and Marines.

They sucked too.

KingCracker wrote:Oh ok so it was his error on letting you kite his boyz mobs around then, that makes more sense. I didnt want to come off as calling you a cheat/lier or anything, I was just curious on how the hell you killed so many Orks with 10 paladins. Thanks


Notabot - So your set up is a perfect situation to gain the best possible chance for killing boyz. Of course itll sound really impressive if you set it up like that. You need to remember that even though that COULD go down that way, playing the actual game probably wont let chances like that pop up often.

Not really, I only got two turns of shooting and one holocaust off on him. Boyz can only close so fast.

if you dont want your Paladins to die, dont take them in the first place.

One thing to keep in mind is that if the orks move 6 forward, and the GK move 6 back, the orks will make no headway without running forward. Thus they get no shooting. They most likely will have ghazgul somewhere for that extra 6 inch run move to get the charge off, so again no shooting.

Paladins with 2 turns of shooting pump out 17 pcannon wounds and 8 stormbolter wounds, holocost of course being awesome if in range. If you give the orks 4+ cover that is still 12-13 dead orks. In assault 29 ork shootas get 3-4 wounds on 10 paladins without FNP. The chances of these wounds being on the same paladins, thus killing someone, is almost nothing.

Paladin attacks back, with no special weapons, deal 9 wounds. This is much higher with falchions and/or the banner. And the fist wounds from the nob get dropped on a wounded paladin, minimizing losses. The issue becomes one of how many paladin attacks did you give your 10 man squad. With no banner/falchions, the paladins will be locked down for so long that the nob fists will beat them eventually. With falchions/banner, the fearless wounds stack up real fast. With character support from either grenades, psychic powers, or reroll 1's from grand stratedgy, it only gets worse for the orks.

Paladins are pretty much the ideal unit to kill orks... best save, best init, high str (hammerhand), high WS, great shooting, lots of wounds. Their only weakness is low numbers of attacks, but even that is fixed with the banner and falchions.

As someone stated earlier, if you take them, take them in a big unit. Because then yea Id agree that sending boyz at them would be a last ditch effort on the Orks part. But if its the usual terminator sized squad (so 5ish) I wouldnt bat an eye at sending the boyz up against them.


Also to the example earlier of killing nearly 100 boyz/nobs. I still say that was a serious error on your friends part. You never chance after a unit with boyz, you either have the range to assault (or bad distance judging screws you on half an inc, that gets everyone ) or you dont go for it. Trying to run down a unit that can pour shots out like the paladins can is just not how he should of gone about it.

Now, I don't have the codex, so I'm not really all that sure about costs and upgrades, but I was thinking of a list that is something like this-

10 paladins and dragio with 4 psycannons and various toys, all diversified- something around 950 pts.

5 paladins with 2 psycannons with some toys, all diversified- close to 325 pts.

5 paladins kitted like the above- 325 pts.

vindicare assasin- 145 pts

2 psyflman dreads 135 each.

Comes up to about 2000 pts, but I might be off a bit. What do you guys think? Is it any good?

If you have 5 paladins (including apothecary) plus a character charged by a horde of orcs, they do okay. Say 120 orc attacks go in. That’s 40 hits of which 20 wound. Just over 3 of those wounds are not saved (warding stave mops up power weapons) and of those half will be saved by FNP. That’s one or two wounds. The paladins on the other hand will have dealt out perhaps 14 attacks (one pair of falchions in the squad). Of those 9 or ten will penetrate, and, given hammerhand and might, of those 7 or 8 will end up wounding without save...

All that's disregarding the fact the paladins will be strikning first and will have inflicted shooting wounds too of course.

Whoa, that's about 60 attacks getting through, not 40. After FNP you're still looking at 2 wounds, though.
With 14 attacks, that's 5 dead orks from initiative weapons, then 1 more from a hammer. (took might out of the equation since it's a player's turn only power, and you said the orks charged)

Then add on PK attacks at the end, probably IKing probably one, maybe two if you didn't take a Stave.