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mattyrm wrote:

In a nutshell, if you tell the doctor that something is affecting your mental health, then they will cover it.

Ergo, you say "If i dont get my tatoo removed/boobs bigger/cock removed/turned into a man i will kill myself because im depressed"

Jobs done.

Words cannot describe how filled with rage I am at this concept.

Mannahnin wrote:No man is an island.

Some exceptions do exist, and are relevant to the thread.

Remember the UK's fattest man and his quest to sue the NHS?

Urge to kill rising... also, too many god damned managers in the NHS.

Firstly, as a transgendered person with one British grandparent, I'd like to say that I take serious issue with some of the derogatory comments and tone used here about immigrants and people undergoing genital reconstruction surgery.

Secondly, I'd like to point out that the NHS has many flaws, but 'it needs to change, these proposals would change it, therefore these proposals are beneficial' is an obvious fallacy.

A number of posters have made points about how private sector involvement in the NHS has in effect turned public health into a money tree for corporations. I'll add a few examples to that.

A large portion of the NHS budget - I recall seeing a figure of 15% - is spent on administering an 'internal market'. The instances of over-managing referred to earlier? For every pound the NHS receives, fifteen pence is spent on trying to make medical and support staff feel like they're working in a business rather than a public service.

The PFI scheme - introduced by New Labour but in effect an extension of the Thatcherite approach of turning public services into state-subsidised businesses where outright privatisation isn't possible to get past the court of public opinion - is an absolute joke. The NHS used to build hospitals with directly employed labour, and own the hospitals. Now, the NHS rents hospital buildings from construction firms, with the total cost massively exceeding the cost of the building works. I've seen firms forecast to make a 200% profit over a thirty year lease, after which the hospital will have to relocate or pay them even more money.

Cleaning services are an absolute joke. They're run by outsourced private contractors, whose race to the bottom has led to my partner being told to just use water on cleaning jobs when the cleansing supplies ran out.

The idea that a reform implemented by the same Tory party that has historically played a major part in causing and exacerbating problems such as these will be anything short of a disaster appears to me to be astonishingly naive. 'We messed up the energy, and fuel, and telecoms, and trains, and busses. Trust us to get it right when we apply the same failed policies to healthcare.'

And thirdly, I'm not going to get drawn into a shouting match with libertarians who didn't get the memo about free markets having a 100% track record of degenerating into corporatist systems run by powerful corporations.

lindsay40k wrote:Firstly, as a transgendered person with one British grandparent, I'd like to say that I take serious issue with some of the derogatory comments and tone used here about immigrants and people undergoing genital reconstruction surgery.

It's whether you're a contributing immigrant or not that matters!

I think the majority of people have no problem with trans-gender operations being carried out on the NHS. Confusion possibly arises when people think of a trans-gender procedure as a solely cosmetic one.

biccat wrote:

youbedead wrote:

biccat wrote:

mattyrm wrote:Ergo, you say "If i dont get my tatoo removed/boobs bigger/cock removed/turned into a man i will kill myself because im depressed"

Jobs done.

That's because you've got a system where the procedures 'covered' by NHS are based on political decisions based on political realities, not on whether it is cost-effective or whether it makes sense to cover the procedures. As long as you have a social welfare based health system, political concerns are going to dominate. If politician X can get group Y to vote for him by supporting the governmente providing Z, he's probably going to do so. Eventually, it will get passed.

If people actually have to pay for the health care they're demanding, they won't ask for nonsensical or cost-inefficient medical procedures.

Edit: I put quotes around "covered" because I'm not sure if there are private physicians available in the UK who will provide services that the NHS refuses.

And is this any better or worse then economic decisions based on profit made by private corporations

I'm not sure what "economic decisions" you're talking about that would be made by private corporations. In a privatized system, an individual has to pay for his or her individual health care. They can buy insurance based on their perceived risk of incurring health care expenses beyond their ability to pay, but that isn't a decision made by a corporation.

So...it would be better.

Does a poor person have the right to healthcare, do they have the right to live. What makes one man more worthy of life then his fellow man. Wealth, altruism, strength, power, or do all men have the equivalent right to life.

Well I have an issue with paying for gender reassignment frankly, I don't give a gak if your as British as John Bull, I disagree hugely, I just happen to disagree even more if you have never contributed to the system. The same goes for fertility treatment, if its not life threatening or seriously debilitating, why?!

And you take issue with me?!

We've got kids dying of leukemia but were spending money on sex changes for people who aren't from here, and whose parents aren't even from here.

Do me a fething favour. You played the system like a fiddle and now your the outraged one?

Your living proof the system is broken.

Medium of Death wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

In a nutshell, if you tell the doctor that something is affecting your mental health, then they will cover it.

Ergo, you say "If i dont get my tatoo removed/boobs bigger/cock removed/turned into a man i will kill myself because im depressed"

Jobs done.

Words cannot describe how filled with rage I am at this concept.

Mannahnin wrote:No man is an island.

Some exceptions do exist, and are relevant to the thread.

Remember the UK's fattest man and his quest to sue the NHS?

Urge to kill rising... also, too many god damned managers in the NHS.

Would you base the entirety of national health care on a report in the Daily Mail?!?!?!?!?

Pro-Tip - look at the republic of ireland.

Then do the opposite of what they do

Everyone wins.


It wil create a 2 tier system with the rich having access to much better health care. In Ireland for example you could wait upto 2 years to have an MRI scan unless you went private. Assming you have a tumour somewhere you could die within that time.

In the UK waiting times are a lot shorter. I like the NHS the way it is.

mattyrm wrote:Well I have an issue with paying for gender reassignment frankly, I don't give a gak if your as British as John Bull, I disagree hugely, I just happen to disagree even more if you have never contributed to the system.

It costs the patient around £10,000 in out-of-pocket costs, not to mention the fact that you have to have been a British tax-payer for a certain amount of time. In other words, they pay more for these operations than you pay for Police, Fire Brigade, NHS etc. in several years...

It's not free, neither are breast augmentations. I have a mate who had one - she had to contribute a few grand towards the cost. Still though, a sober assessment of the facts isn't as much fun as RRRRRRAAAAAGE!

We've got kids dying of leukemia but were spending money on sex changes for people who aren't from here, and whose parents aren't even from here.

I'm not sure that the two are linked....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Phototoxin wrote:It wil create a 2 tier system with the rich having access to much better health care.

Why is that a bad thing? Excellent state-of-the art treatment for those who can afford it, perfectly adequate treatment for those who can't. Sounds great.




Wait...we already have that, don't we?

You can go private in the UK for some stuff but I've found that you might as well just wait an extra week or two.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Would you base the entirety of national health care on a report in the Daily Mail?!?!?!?!?

No sir, sorry sir.


It was either that or 'The Sun', although option C has now entered the arena 'When choosing between the Mail and the Sun, choose neither and go make tea'

Good old hindsight.

Also, did anyone watch that Dispatches programme? (link one page over) Do eet.

The simple point I am making Alb, is that I see it as what you need and what you want.

The NHS should cover any and all operations you need. But you don't need a breast enlargement, you don't need a sex change, you don't need a tattoo removed, you just really really want one.

I really really want a grey knight army, I don't expect the tax payer to assist me in getting one though.

mattyrm wrote:...you don't need a breast enlargement

The world would be a lot better if it overflowed with larger breasted women. Especially now we are getting towards summer...

"Stuff going to war, I'm going to the beach to check out the babes!"

"You know what, the West may be full of infidels, but look at all the boobies! Lets go and be their friends rather than blowing them up - and we will sell them cheap oil too!"

mattyrm wrote:

I really really want a grey knight army, I don't expect the tax payer to assist me in getting one though.

... I wonder if I could get 40k classified as an addiction...

mattyrm wrote:The simple point I am making Alb, is that I see it as what you need and what you want.

The NHS should cover any and all operations you need. But you don't need a breast enlargement, you don't need a sex change, you don't need a tattoo removed, you just really really want one.

I really really want a grey knight army, I don't expect the tax payer to assist me in getting one though.

and what if someone has a mastectomy? then technically you are having a breast enlargement because you are going from nothing...to having a breast again. Does this fall into your category of 'unnecessary operations'?

Yes.

what about reconstructive surgery/therapy for soldiers? (caused by a multitude of things)

after all they don't need to look normal...

Yeah we shouldn't kick the arse out of that either. We know the risks.

Plus we all got told to take out our own private insurance before we deploy because we know that we can't rely on the system we serve, I could pay for any cosmetics myself.

or anyone who has suffered from an accident? (car crash, industrial accident, vindictive assault etc.)

mattyrm wrote:Well I have an issue with paying for gender reassignment frankly, I don't give a gak if your as British as John Bull, I disagree hugely, I just happen to disagree even more if you have never contributed to the system. The same goes for fertility treatment, if its not life threatening or seriously debilitating, why?!

And you take issue with me?!

We've got kids dying of leukemia but were spending money on sex changes for people who aren't from here, and whose parents aren't even from here.

Do me a fething favour. You played the system like a fiddle and now your the outraged one?

Your living proof the system is broken.

I rather think I covered the issue of funding allocation already, and furthermore it seems quite presumptuous to assert that I've not been a net contributor to the system. I'm sure there's plenty of NHS services that might be of benefit to yourself.

Also, just a quick reminder for you:

Dakka forum rules wrote:Be polite and friendly, even when discussing such hot topics as politics and religion... Remember that we have users of all ages and that Dakka should be a welcoming place for everyone to enjoy... If any posted content breaks any of the rules the moderators may take some or all of the following actions, often without warning. Please note that users who repeatedly break these rules will eventually have their account either temporarily or permanently suspended and in extreme cases this may occur without warning... Posts that contain profanity, insults, blatant attempts at baiting a flame war (trolling), racial slurs, etc. will be locked, edited or deleted.

Perhaps it might be advisable to exhibit a little more

mattyrm's sig wrote:boundless love as a Christian

?

Yeah Lindsay, my sig is a quote by Hitler because im sick of hearing Creationists say he was an atheist.

Please dont mistake my argument for a dislike for gay/transgender people by the way, im a very socially liberal person, i genuinelly like gay people and I think that every human should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want, I just dont think I should have to contribute towards the cost of whatever people want to do because I ask for nothing from anyone myself!

I mean, regarding the mastectomy, my own mother had one, and she used a "falsie" and had a bag of gel down her bra, Its not like I am a hypocrite and I think that whats good enough for other people isnt good enough for me. Thats pretty much the entirety of my argument, I take nothing from the system, and I think if everyone had the same attitude we would be a good country, we seem to want to mollycoddle everyone and frankly i find it somewhat embarrasing, wheres all the stiff upper lips?

Same with the injured soldiers thing, I dont know if people are aware, but they get very very little, ive never been (seriously) injured in action, but when I was it was no special treatment, it was stiches once and a plaster cast once, and thats it. The bare minumum. We took out or own private policies because we are aware of the inadequacies of the system, and THAT is the attitude the public should have.

I have my flaws, but im a man of integrity and I will never be a hypocrite. I merely ask that people take care of them bloody selves and stop trying to screw the system for self gain, and THAT is why the NHS needs to be looked at, because its getting bled dry.

If our injured veterans are given the absolute minimum service, and have to rely on their own bank balances or charity, then the general bloody public should get the same treatment.

.... this is where you kiss to break the tension BTW

If we could, please, debate the points whilst showing respect for other posters that'd be super.

I take nothing from the system

today anyway eh ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/may/14/nhs.society
Health Tourism in UK not a serious issue according to Medecins Sans Frontiers report.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/04/21/nhs-gender-reassignment-surgery-rates-triple/
Gender reassignment surgeries triple, from 54 in 2000 to 143 in 2009. That's actually nearer 2.6 than 3x but this was taken from a Daily Telegraph report.

Cost = £10,000 each.


Visitors aren't entitled to free treatment for everything, according to the Citizen's Advice Bureau.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/nm/index/family_parent/health/nhs_charges_for_people_from_abroad.htm

Ironically this precludes British ex-pats on the Costa del Sol from health touristing their way in the UK.

The average NHS worker has 4 times more time off sick than other areas of the public sector (From OP)

Could this be because they work with sick people all day every day

No mate, I think its mainly the good old bad backs and depression.

Its not cos of disease.

Frazzled wrote:Wait I thought socialized medicine was perfect? Thats what Obama keeps telling me

Ah, this must be humor.

biccat wrote:

mattyrm wrote:Are we REALLY on a path to privatised medicine?

You say that like it's a bad thing.

It is.

Private healthcare in the US is one of the worst systems in the world.

mattyrm wrote:I take nothing from the system

Yes you do, you just don't want to admit it.

You benefit from the system even if you don't directly use it.

All of the medical staff who treat you in an NHS or private hospital received heavily subsidised education.

I'm not sure how much weight you can afford to put on the 'I don't take from the system' argument when you yourself are (formerly?) employed by the armed forces. Of those who would agree with your opposition to state-funded public services, there are an awful lot who extend this opposition to state-funded armies beyond a small 'night watch' state to maintain public order. And serving in the forces is often sold as a way to receive education funding; there's probably a fair few soldiers who enlist because they want you and I to contribute towards the costs of their A-levels or whathaveyou.

And I'm all in favour of improving aftercare for armed forces personnel. I have friends who served in Iraq who were seriously let down. I think it's too simplistic to dismiss health workers as pulling sickies when they clearly are both exposed to infection risks and also routinely work excessive hours. In any rate, complaining about better organised public sector employees having better conditions is not going to lead to an improvement in forces conditions. I'd sooner see the forces get full union rights rather than have their goodwill continually abused by the government to fob them off with poor aftercare after running them like the East India Trading Company.

It's easy to say you don't take from the system but try living the rest of your life without doing so.

The NHS needs improvement but it's still a very good system. An organisation that large will cost a lot- there is nothing you can do about it but it's undeniable the NHS saves people a lot of money compared to private health care. I would much rather have cheaper health care than the owners of medical companies making millions.

mattyrm wrote:No mate, I think its mainly the good old bad backs and depression.

Its not cos of disease.

I worked in a hospital for over 2 years and while there is a degree of "Yeah, I don't really feel like coming in today" (I know one clinical staff member who was not being paid peanuts who used to do this on an annoyingly regular basis which meant canceled clinics with 20+ people having to be moved to other clinic dates or clinicians), there is a lot of genuine illness because of the proximity to, and exposure to ill people.

^agree,
and as for NHS staff being ill, i am at work right now, i started at 9 and i wont be leavig tll this clinic is finished, so probably 8 o clock or so. This is normal for a Thursday. and i only get paid till 5, but i stay beause peoples lives depend on them getting treatment, and that means they need me to make sure the doctor has all the knowledge he/she needs to make an assessment.

Yeah I think Melissa, Red et al are missing the point of what I am trying to say. Obviously if you are born and raised in any civilised country then something from "the system" has benefitted you. Im not saying never use anything ever, thats ridiclous. Im saying that you should not be able to "play" the system. And our system is far too easy to abuse, abuse for wellfare, council houses, job seekers, NHS cosmetics, etc etc ad nausium.

If someone has worked for 20 years and he gets made redundant, then of course he should be allowed job seekers allowance, but he shouldnt be allowed to get his cock made bigger on the NHS.

Its not that hard to grasp is it?

Im not saying everyone should be as proud as me and never go to an NHS dentist, live in a council house, get working tax credits or child benefit or any other goddamn state assisted programme.

Im saying that our system is being systematically abused on a large scale. And it needs putting right. We need to make it harder to get benefits, much harder, because everyone knows someone who is milking the system.

gak, i personally know about 6 people who do it, its a big joke in the pub to have a mate who has been on the dole for 6 years. But not to bad tempered Matty it isnt.

But thats kinda OT, lets just stick to the NHS.

I say we ban, pschological treatments unless you are sectioned. That will put a stop to all the fake depression and all the sex changes and boob jobs. If you have to spend 90 days in a nuthouse, i think the boob job requests will go through the floor!

And reds comment was funny, but, how far off the mark is it? If I see a guy in the Daily Mail in a few weeks time who gets state funded GW battleforces due to depression Ill know who it is!