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The Imperium isn't all that feudal though. It's a massive empire that long ago realized that trying to control things on the local level was wasteful and insane, and so left pretty much everything up to local officials, aside from the basic guidelines of "pay your taxes, and don't harbor or consort with witches, xenos, or daemons, because that's just stupid and will only get you and everything you care about destroyed and/or eaten". So you have everything from monarchies to democracies to technocratic bureaucracies. As I recall, the villain in the Ravenor series was a democratically elected governor who had promised reforms of an indeterminate nature.

The Ciaphas Cain novels generally feature worlds that wouldn't be too far from the world of the average first world citizen, while the worst normal conditions portrayed don't seem much different from, say, a third world slum, only with a higher population and in a setting where toxic waste turns you into something out of the Star Wars cantina (one of the Eisenhorn books has a few chapters dealing with mutants tolerated as cheap labor on an agriworld which gets rather ridiculous with their physical descriptions, which include a stripper with porcupine quills and an anthropomorphic elephant...), instead of just killing/maiming you.

Heh, I know. Looking forward to it, actually, as we incorporate a lot of RT stuff into our DH campaign. The party recently "liberated" a frigate-class vessel from the forces of the Main Bad Guy and have been tooling around the sector in it (using the Influence of their patron NPC Inquisitor to find a crew for it)... and, boy, are they terrified of going into combat with it! It's well-armed and well-armored, but I think they're afraid of explaining the scratches to the paint-job to their patron... which is how it should be.

Speaking of the Imperium in general, though, it is rather feudal in the sense that, for the majority of the populace, they're tied to the world upon which they are born, their social mobility is near-zero, the absolute power of rulership rests in the hands of the few (or the one), they have few to no civil liberties, and whatever solace they may find in religion is tempered by the fact that this religion exists to maintain the status quo. The *vast* majority of people will never leave the world of their birth (indeed, some will never leave the Hive-level on which they were born), and will be utterly powerless to enact meaningful change to their condition. Is it any wonder that Chaos finds Mankind such fertile ground?

Some worlds do elect their leaders, to be sure, but even in this case the planetary rulers are near-absolute in power, even those balanced by various senates or noble congresses or other such apparatus. In fact, such bodies might actually make things worse, as you now have a group of extremely well-off people engaging in high-stakes politics. Then again, an adage of the Imperium is "To begin reform is to begin revolution", so elected or not, despotic or not, a planetary ruler is unlikely to change the average citizen's lot in any way.

Psienesis wrote:Several of the most-powerful Rogue Trader dynasties command entire armadas of vessels, not all of them of entirely-human origin. Some extremely-wealthy few of this noble elite use recaptured Space Hulks as the flagship of their fleets.

Source?

It sounds interesting. I mean, using a space hulk as a flagship is a bit orkish, but it's kinda cool.

But as I said, the wealthiest Rogue Trader I ever heard of was Lucian Guerrit, the patriarch of the Lucian family. He owned a heavy cruiser and a couple of cruisers. I don't remember how many escorts there was in his private fleet.

Most Rogue Traders I heard of usually owned a single cruiser as a flagship, with half a dozen escort vessels, and probably a couple of small alien ships hired as mercenaries.

At least, that's how they are portrayed in BFG.

Grey Templar wrote:a Rogue Trader can potentially outclass an IoM ship of the same tonnage.

Rogue Traders can't hold a Candle to ships like Emperor's and Armageddon class Battleships, but on a Cruiser level its anyones game.

I agree with that.

money and power can get you anything. Why would this cange in the 40K universe?

Laodamia wrote:

Melissia wrote:That depends on the ship. Rogue Trader ships can be more advanced than imperial navy ships.

Bullsh ! Heresy!

Hum, sorry. That was the Navy fanboy.

Actually, I have never heard of any rogue trader vessel that could outmatch a navy battleship. The most wealthy rogue trader families will often own a cruiser (or sometimes even a battlecruiser). The wealthiest rogue trader I have ever heard of owned a ship the size of a battlecruiser and two additional cruisers. Often, Rogue Trader vessels are decommissioned Navy ships, which are then "upgraded" with various artifacts collected by the Rogue Trader throughout the years.
And actually, some of these artifacts will certainly be xenos, and thus have capabilities never encountered on a navy ship. But this is the only way in which a rogue trader ship will outmatch a navy vessel.
A rogue Trader vessel will simply have a less disciplined and trained crew (in most cases, not always) and a less advanced equipment. For instance, rogue trader attack crafts (which are extremely expensive) will probably not match their Navy counterparts.

But the vessel itself can be more advanced than a comparably sized Navy vessel, either in armaments, mobility, or other systems. Eisenhorn features a Rogue Trader with an automated ship manned by servitors, and Ravenor has a Rogue Trader with a standing contract with Ravenor, whose ship got a number of upgrades courtesy of the Inquisition.

Psienesis wrote:Speaking of the Imperium in general, though, it is rather feudal in the sense that, for the majority of the populace, they're tied to the world upon which they are born, their social mobility is near-zero, the absolute power of rulership rests in the hands of the few (or the one), they have few to no civil liberties, and whatever solace they may find in religion is tempered by the fact that this religion exists to maintain the status quo. The *vast* majority of people will never leave the world of their birth (indeed, some will never leave the Hive-level on which they were born), and will be utterly powerless to enact meaningful change to their condition. Is it any wonder that Chaos finds Mankind such fertile ground?

Some worlds do elect their leaders, to be sure, but even in this case the planetary rulers are near-absolute in power, even those balanced by various senates or noble congresses or other such apparatus. In fact, such bodies might actually make things worse, as you now have a group of extremely well-off people engaging in high-stakes politics. Then again, an adage of the Imperium is "To begin reform is to begin revolution", so elected or not, despotic or not, a planetary ruler is unlikely to change the average citizen's lot in any way.

That really describes the poor of most third world countries too. You're born in a third world slum: you'll be stuck there until you die, unless you're extremely lucky and manage to raise your class, or insanely desperate enough to spend everything you have for a dangerous, miserable passage to somewhere where your lot in life won't greatly improve, if you don't just get tossed right back with only the shirt on your back left. The Imperium is pretty much like that, with the added burden of space to limit any migration.

Laodamia wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Several of the most-powerful Rogue Trader dynasties command entire armadas of vessels, not all of them of entirely-human origin. Some extremely-wealthy few of this noble elite use recaptured Space Hulks as the flagship of their fleets.

Source?

It sounds interesting. I mean, using a space hulk as a flagship is a bit orkish, but it's kinda cool.

But as I said, the wealthiest Rogue Trader I ever heard of was Lucian Guerrit, the patriarch of the Lucian family. He owned a heavy cruiser and a couple of cruisers. I don't remember how many escorts there was in his private fleet.

Most Rogue Traders I heard of usually owned a single cruiser as a flagship, with half a dozen escort vessels, and probably a couple of small alien ships hired as mercenaries.

At least, that's how they are portrayed in BFG.

Calligos Winterscale, an RT featured in the Rogue Trader RPG, has an entire sub-sector of the Koronus Expanse named for him. His flagship, "The Emperor's Vow" is described as "a potent vessel", and given that most of the upper-tier RTs in this area of space are flying about in cruiser-class vessels, it can be extrapolated that the Emperor's Vow is either a particularly well-fitted cruiser or a full-on Grand Cruiser. Winterscale is, incidentally, the most influential RT in the region, at least in the fluff. Aspyce Chorda, another RT from the same source, is of a lineage rooted in piracy, and commands an entire fleet of rather ne'er-do-well sorts. I don't, unfortunately, have my copy of the Koronus Expanse sourcebook on hand to give more details on fluff-specific RTs, and Lexicanum does not yet have any articles on these characters. I don't remember if Winterscale himself (or his ship) is detailed further there, but several other RTs are (far moreso than the main book, as it turns out) and includes more background on their holdings and methods of operation.

Noir wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote: As seen in games like necromunda, normal humans get paid, they have money, if for the most part very little, but they still have money.

It more likely the worker get paid in credit usable only to buy from the House they work for. While ganger sell items for real IoM credit. Most poeple are just serfs, unable to even read. There income is likely based on the Lord/Serf dynamic, like the feudalism system the IoM is based on.

unable to read?

so all the billion and billions that work in the Adeptus Terra, Ecclesiarchy, IG are all illiterate? you are gonna be hard pressed to prove that and explain how they could be.

Also your view of feudalism is really way off, even the poor in feudal systems still got paid.

Actually, he is correct in that most of the Imperium is illiterate. This is illustrated in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels, as a few of the troopers, who were literate, spend time teaching others how to read so they can sing along during the chaplain's services.

If your job is to polish the pews in a shrine, you don't need to read. People who have a job involving technology aren't taught to understand the technology, they simply follow a ritual, memorized by rote, to activate and operate the particular machine required. Anything more complex than that is handled by either a servitor or a full-blown Tech-Priest or equivalent figure.

Those who work in the Adepta you mentioned, though they may number in the tens to hundreds of millions, if not even into the tens of billions... are still just a drop in the bucket of the total population of the Imperium. You might have, say (for sake of argument), 200 billion people working in the Administratum... but in an Imperium of 800 trillion people (number taken from statsoutofmyass.com), that's really not that many.

Psienesis wrote:Calligos Winterscale, an RT featured in the Rogue Trader RPG, has an entire sub-sector of the Koronus Expanse named for him. His flagship, "The Emperor's Vow" is described as "a potent vessel", and given that most of the upper-tier RTs in this area of space are flying about in cruiser-class vessels, it can be extrapolated that the Emperor's Vow is either a particularly well-fitted cruiser or a full-on Grand Cruiser.

The Emperor's Vow could perfectly be a grand cruiser. Grand cruisers are the kind of vessels coming from old designs that are usually rendered obsolete by more recent tactics and ships. So they are usually either placed in reserve fleets or decommissioned. So, a wealthy rogue trader could perfectly get his hands on one of them. But it doesn't mean they are not powerful vessels! On the contrary, they are still a match for any Navy vessel except battlecruisers and battleships. A rogue trader would be more than happy to have one.

The rogue trader I was referring to (Lucien Guerrit) had a battlecruiser, but it doesn't mean that other rogue traders in the galaxy don't own other ships that big.

Laodamia wrote:Actually, I have never heard of any rogue trader vessel that could outmatch a navy battleship.

More advanced != bigger.

A wealthy rogue trader's destroyer/frigate can easily outclass a standard Imperial ship of the same category when it comes to most standards of measurement.

literacy is realative in the IoM

with millions of languages to deal with there could be literate people who can't read Gothic.



certaintly, people are largely Technologically illiterate on worlds where such Tech is widely used. they know how to work a cogitator and change some basic parts, but they have NO idea how anything works. realativly speaking, they are illiterate, but this doesn't mean they can't use it.


Hive city under levels would have large quantities of people who can't read due to there not being education avaliable/not needed. or they can't read Gothic and only read the planets indigenious Language.

Also, yes, the common worker does make money off of their work on most worlds. Money is a good motivator, even if it's merely a small amount.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dark Heresy hast he following:


Outcasts (scum, criminals, etc): Whatever they can steal or scrounge up basically. These poor scoundrels are beneath even the working class in wealth, having only what they steal.

Drudging Class (equivalent to our working class, the lower lower class): 30 Thrones/Month. They make just about enough to buy a couple meals every day, maybe eventually save up enough to buy a very little something for their loved ones. Probably also live at their work if they're lucky, pay rent if they aren't.

Military Class (Imperial Guard, PDF): 50 Thrones/Month. Are provided their own meals, too, courtesy of the Guard, so it's a bit misleading. Still isn't much in the end, but it's better than the working class!

Supine Class (Arbitors, Enforcers, Sanctioed Psykers): 70 Thrones/Month. Those that serve the Emperor are served in return, with higher wages. Naturally, higher ranking Arbitrators are paid much, much better, and the pay of Enforcers is never regular due to the nature of those people.

Learned Class (Scholars, Teachers, Advisors to low level officials): 100 Thrones/Month. As some are fond of saying, knowledge is power, and those who have it and can use it wisely are valued by the Imperium.

Trading Class (Merchants, competent assassins, specialist tradesmen): 120 Thrones/Month. Plus the occasional big bonus from a good deal or a lucrative contract, of course. Some trades are more valuable than others.

Mechanicus Agents (Techpriests: 150 Thrones/Month. The servants of the Machine God are granted resources by the Mechanicus, above that of most Imperial servants.

Ministorum Agents (Priests): 200 Thrones/Month. Servants of the Emperor, however, have wealth only exceeded by nobility and truly exceptional individuals. The boundless wealth of the Ecclesiarchy allows it to reward loyal members well.

Nobility (born to wealth, usually those of lower status rather than scions): 500 Thrones/Month or more. They're rich, spoiled brats, all of them. But being rich can count for quite a bit in many situations, and then there's the influence they can wield.

Unbound Classes (Rogue Traders, Inquisition, other powerful people): Practically unlimited, influence and wealth as opposed to money.