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Depends on the av14.

Wagons and russ are vulnerable to shunting interceptors shooting them in the rear + anything the land raider is vulnerable to.

Land raiders are vulnerable to might of titan, vindicare, and melta.

Monoliths are very vulnerable to s10 deamonhammers. Gk want to get warriors into cc anyways. Charge the warriors and monolith, hammerhand, and s10 deamon hammer the monolith. Its a total no brainer.

Restrictive rule>permissive rule=1d6 pen for a vindicare against living metal. Even if I am wrong the vindicare won't survive 1 round of necron shooting. If I am right the vindicare will start pounding the lord with a res orb instead which should hurt the necron player even more than shooting up a monolith, and thus the vindicare doesn't live to see turn 2.

That almost sounds like a good thing for the gk player. I mean, at 36", the only ranged weapons necrons could fire at him are destroyers and heavy destroyers right? t4, 2w, gtg for a 2+ save and his crappy fnp save on top of that... unless he takes a lucky heavy destroyer hit, he might survive quite a bit of shooting. Apparently, he's not that big of a threat to necrons anyway, so isn't every shot that gets wasted on him instead of something else actually beneficial to the gk?

The Vindicare definetly has uses against Necrons, such as picking out Necron Lords hiding in units to get rid of those pesky res orbs.

Fafnir wrote:The Vindicare definetly has uses against Necrons, such as picking out Necron Lords hiding in units to get rid of those pesky res orbs.

Does the Vindicare need to roll to wound or anything to shieldbreak? The Necron Lord's Invul save (from the Phase Shifter) is an expensive piece of wargear, I'd be quite annoyed if it got shot out from under me.

No. If a wound is allocated, the save is gone, and THEN you save for the actual wound.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Fafnir wrote:The Vindicare definetly has uses against Necrons, such as picking out Necron Lords hiding in units to get rid of those pesky res orbs.

Does the Vindicare need to roll to wound or anything to shieldbreak? The Necron Lord's Invul save (from the Phase Shifter) is an expensive piece of wargear, I'd be quite annoyed if it got shot out from under me.

somerandomdude wrote:No. If a wound is allocated, the save is gone, and THEN you save for the actual wound.

So the answer is yes, he has to roll to wound. If the wound is allocated, the wargear breaks. If the model makes a cover save, the wargear still broke. The rifle is AP1, so there's no armor save.

I have probably been pretty lucky thus far...it has only taken me one orbital strike per land raider. Sure that little blast always scatters but the whole template is a full strength lance...it kills.

I was unpleasantly surprised at just how well paladins with psycannons shredded my LR-chassis. 4 shots each, 6's rend, anything more than a 2 on the rend dice = penetrated. Admittedly, him rolling 5's and 6's to destroy didn't help :(

ElCheezus wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Fafnir wrote:The Vindicare definetly has uses against Necrons, such as picking out Necron Lords hiding in units to get rid of those pesky res orbs.

Does the Vindicare need to roll to wound or anything to shieldbreak? The Necron Lord's Invul save (from the Phase Shifter) is an expensive piece of wargear, I'd be quite annoyed if it got shot out from under me.

somerandomdude wrote:No. If a wound is allocated, the save is gone, and THEN you save for the actual wound.

So the answer is yes, he has to roll to wound. If the wound is allocated, the wargear breaks. If the model makes a cover save, the wargear still broke. The rifle is AP1, so there's no armor save.

@ Dashofpepper: Knowing all of what was just said combined with the fact that the vindicare is almost certain to inflict 2 more wounds killing your res orb lord on your the next I have 3 questions for you.

Question #1: Knowing the vindicare is going to kill a res orb lord on the next turn how much firepower is your necron army going to focus on the vindicare on your turn?

Question #2: How much firepower will it actually take for a necron army to kill a single T4 model with 2 wounds +stealth USR that is not able to join squads?

Question #3: Did the vindicare make it's points back if it fires 1 shot at necron lord inflicting 1 wound and vandalizing his invo save before the necrons turn around and paste the vindicare?

IMO I'm very underwhelmed by the vindicare because of how awesome it's shooting is and how not awesome it's durability is. There are many armies like necrons where vindicare can single handedly tear the armies heart out in a surgical and precise manor, provided that the army sits back and allows the vindicator to do so. The vindicare doesn't have the durability to survive the return fire that it is certain to draw. In short the vindicare writes checks it's ass can't cash. Any player with half a clue is just going to paste it before it ever gets it's first shot off, unless the GK player goes first in a non dawn of war deployment. In that scenario the vindicator fires 1 shot and will get pasted before it gets to fire a 2nd shot, and it dies as a 1 pump chump.

schadenfreude wrote:Any player with half a clue is just going to paste it before it ever gets it's first shot off, unless the GK player goes first in a non dawn of war deployment. In that scenario the vindicator fires 1 shot and will get pasted before it gets to fire a 2nd shot, and it dies as a 1 pump chump.

If a vindicare consumes the kind of long ranged fire power it'd take to ensure his death in one turn, it isn't that bad for the GKs as that stuff didn't fire at anything more important.

I think the point is that he's doesn't enough survivability to make up for his points. Taking fire is good, but they think he needs to take more to validate his taking up an elite slot and 145 points.

I say know when to go to ground or take a Techmarine and you've got a 2+ cover save. Then again, I haven't run him yet.

ElCheezus wrote:I think the point is that he's doesn't enough survivability to make up for his points. Taking fire is good, but they think he needs to take more to validate his taking up an elite slot and 145 points.

I say know when to go to ground or take a Techmarine and you've got a 2+ cover save. Then again, I haven't run him yet.

Even with a 2+ cover save a vindicare would only achieve the durability of a chaos obliterator at twice the cost of a chaos obliterator, which on a point for point basis is half the durability per point of a chaos obliterator. Half as good as obliterators is the best a vindicare can do.

@schadenfreude:

Its not as simple as that. For the Vindicare to be able to shield break a Necron Lord, he has to be able to see him. If you have a vindicare in your army, chances are that my Lord is using cover or Monoliths so that you can't see him regardless of where you infiltrate.

In other words, I'm not going to allocate any firepower to him, because I can neutralize him with positioning. If the opportunity arises, I *will* assault the piss out of him though.

*edit*

Besides, Vindicare Assassins are allergic to my wraithflowers.

ElCheezus wrote:I think the point is that he's doesn't enough survivability to make up for his points.

Here in 5th edition we don't play for victory points, so that excuse doesn't really pan out.

Demon hammer + might of titan, there is a reasonable chance of penetrating with strength 10 + 2d6 ap

Snickerdoodle wrote:Demon hammer + might of titan, there is a reasonable chance of penetrating with strength 10 + 2d6 ap

Penetrating most vehicles, yes. But remember that you don't get 2D6 bonus for Monoliths.

Why arn't psycannons and the Vindicare up there?


Psycannons are STUPIDLY good at killing AV14.

the Vindicare will pen AV14 on average too.


naturally, neither applies to Monoliths, but they don't need to be destroyed and if they do, Str10 deamon hammers are more then enough.

ElCheezus wrote:So the answer is yes, he has to roll to wound. If the wound is allocated, the wargear breaks. If the model makes a cover save, the wargear still broke. The rifle is AP1, so there's no armor save.

For some reason I read his post as something like "cause an unsaved wound."

As for the Vindicare and survivability, the Vindicare will be some of the only shooting beyond 24" in most GK lists. If the opponent sends shots into him to make sure he is killed, then there are fewer shots going at your other squads that NEED to close in. The best way to take out GKs is to stay out of range and shoot them from 30"+. If you've got someone seriously harrassing you, then you won't be able to focus on the GKs from range. Even if all he does is take out an invulnerable save, that will help.

somerandomdude wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:So the answer is yes, he has to roll to wound. If the wound is allocated, the wargear breaks. If the model makes a cover save, the wargear still broke. The rifle is AP1, so there's no armor save.

For some reason I read his post as something like "cause an unsaved wound."

As for the Vindicare and survivability, the Vindicare will be some of the only shooting beyond 24" in most GK lists. If the opponent sends shots into him to make sure he is killed, then there are fewer shots going at your other squads that NEED to close in. The best way to take out GKs is to stay out of range and shoot them from 30"+. If you've got someone seriously harrassing you, then you won't be able to focus on the GKs from range. Even if all he does is take out an invulnerable save, that will help.

All the more reason to not take a vindicare. Paying 72.5 points per wound on a punching bag is way too much, and if he is the only long range shot he will just attract more bullets.

schadenfreude wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:So the answer is yes, he has to roll to wound. If the wound is allocated, the wargear breaks. If the model makes a cover save, the wargear still broke. The rifle is AP1, so there's no armor save.

For some reason I read his post as something like "cause an unsaved wound."

As for the Vindicare and survivability, the Vindicare will be some of the only shooting beyond 24" in most GK lists. If the opponent sends shots into him to make sure he is killed, then there are fewer shots going at your other squads that NEED to close in. The best way to take out GKs is to stay out of range and shoot them from 30"+. If you've got someone seriously harrassing you, then you won't be able to focus on the GKs from range. Even if all he does is take out an invulnerable save, that will help.

All the more reason to not take a vindicare. Paying 72.5 points per wound on a punching bag is way too much, and if he is the only long range shot he will just attract more bullets.

I didn't say he would be the only long range. The point of my post was that most opponents won't have enough to focus on him AND prepare themselves for turns 2-4.

If you don't do enough damage to GKs before they get to midfield, it can be tough. That's why you need to focus on them instead of the Assassin. If you don't, you'll get rid of that 145 point model, sure... But who cares?

The Vindicare should not be the victim of focused fire. If he is, then the GK player should be happen with what he gets.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Gavo wrote:Hm. Won't Hammerhand-ed Daemon Hammers drop AV14? That's in CC, but still.

I assume I'm correct when I say it goes Hammerhand -> 2x Strength, right? I don't have the codex on me right now, but I've heard that it goes before modifiers.

No, its the reverse. Double + modifer.

That's why Ork nobs are STR4 x2 + 1 (STR9) instead of STR4+1 x2 (STR10) on the charge.

This is incorrect. Hammerhand + daemon hammer = S10. Hammerhand breaks the "double first" rule as it specifically says so in it's entry.

My friend the super math hammer figured that 1 stationary psycannon kills AV14 better than 1 lascannon. Then make it TL (dread, redeemer, razorback). My #1 pick would be the psycannon. Also on a side note, i've personally done it a lot.

Vindicare have the best chance with the avg roll of a d6 = 3.5 x4 = 14 + 1 (str X = 1) then avg die roll will pen. Plus it's AP 1 = +1 damage chart = dead LR.

DK I think have a good chance too even though it's CC. Keep both fists and you have 6 attacks on the charge, statistically speaking 1 will hit for sure and that one has an average pen of 17. Hammers are pointless vs. LR due to machine spirit. Greatsword + hammerhand is really good too considering S7 + reroll to hit and armor pen.

Sniper rifles are Str3 against vehicles.

But we do require an FAQ to determine exactly how the Turbo Penetrator round works.

It could be the most powerful always-4d6, rends, sniper +3 Str.

It could also be conditional or nonconditional-4d6, rend or no rend, without +3 Str.

I lean toward the former. People with monoliths probably don't want it.

My friend the super math hammer figured that 1 stationary psycannon kills AV14 better than 1 lascannon. Then make it TL (dread, redeemer, razorback). My #1 pick would be the psycannon. Also on a side note, i've personally done it a lot.

None of those vehicles have pyscannons. You are thinking of assault cannons; which would also need pysammo added

Vindicare have the best chance with the avg roll of a d6 = 3.5 x4 = 14 + 1 (str X = 1)

Unless faq'ed otherwise; sniper rifles are strength 3 against vehicles

DK I think have a good chance too even though it's CC. Keep both fists and you have 6 attacks on the charge, statistically speaking 1 will hit for sure and that one has an average pen of 17. Hammers are pointless vs. LR due to machine spirit.

It only gets 5 attacks on the charge, and depending what the upcoming faq says, hammers might not be worthless. There is debate as to weather or not the doomfists give a DK strength 10, since they are not a walker.

I agree with you on the turbo round sourclams. It was faq'ed to work that way a long time ago. I know necron players say "that was an old faq, the new one doesn't have it listed anymore, so it doesn't work"
BUT
the new necron faq also doesn't have talos attacks, tank hunters etc listed like it felt the need to in the old one. Does that mean those abilities are all back on the table and work vs a monolith? No, we just assume they still don't since nothing has changed

any of those vehicles with an Assault Cannon(or Tl assault cannon) and psybolts has, to all intents and purposes, a psycannon.

Psybolts are a steal for what they give you on those vehicles.


trust me, any GK player who takes loads of assault cannons will be taking them in conjunction with Psybolts.

Grey Templar wrote:any of those vehicles with an Assault Cannon(or Tl assault cannon) and psybolts has, to all intents and purposes, a psycannon.

Psybolts are a steal for what they give you on those vehicles.


trust me, any GK player who takes loads of assault cannons will be taking them in conjunction with Psybolts.

Amen, brother, vehicle-bound Psycannons are amazing. It's the king of all-purpose weapons. You can get more range and anti-transport with Psyrifleman, or slightly better AV 14 with meltas, but Psycanons have good Str, medium AP + rending, and good rate of fire. Their downside is range, but the whole army performs best at 24", so it's not like anything shooting will be way ahead or way behind the rest of the force, so it's always supported.

omerakk wrote:
None of those vehicles have pyscannons. You are thinking of assault cannons; which would also need pysammo added

These vehicles have psycannons for only 5 points on top of the AC. Worth it every time.

omerakk wrote:
Unless faq'ed otherwise; sniper rifles are strength 3 against vehicles

Yeah I wrote that at 3 A.M. All that means though is that it's easier to pen.

omerakk wrote:It only gets 5 attacks on the charge, and depending what the upcoming faq says, hammers might not be worthless.

Ah yeah, for some reason I thought they had 4 attacks base. Again with the # A.M. thing. Still excesively good chance of pen.

omerakk wrote:There is debate as to weather or not the doomfists give a DK strength 10, since they are not a walker.

This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard, right up there with all the other debates going on about this dex. The only thing that would be more stupid is if GW FAQed that to be true. I understand it's an outdated dex, but the last eldar dex had wraithlords with DCCW. I don't have a big book around me so I can't check it. I'll get back on that one.

EDIT:
Ok, checked it, and RAW that's probably right. I still think it's stupid though. The Daemon Hammer is only 10 points. For 10 points it gives you a thunder hammer AND S10? That would be way under priced. So RAW makes me think it's not S10, and points value and logic (knowing old MCs with DCCW) makes me think they are. Guess we will have to wait for a FAQ. Until then, they're S10 in my eyes.

Am I the only one that thinks something really good is missing here?

Ordo Xenos Inq
-Conversion Beamer

Also does the necron codex state that you don't get an extra d6 for armor penetration or that you only get 1d6? If its the later then that's a little rough, if it's the former then that would mean that the turbo penetrator gets its 4d6 as that is the weapon profile.

LucasLAD wrote:Am I the only one that thinks something really good is missing here?

Ordo Xenos Inq
-Conversion Beamer

Also does the necron codex state that you don't get an extra d6 for armor penetration or that you only get 1d6? If its the later then that's a little rough, if it's the former then that would mean that the turbo penetrator gets its 4d6 as that is the weapon profile.

IIRC it states that you don't get any extra penetration dice, and as such always roll S+D6, i.e. both of your options.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

LucasLAD wrote:Am I the only one that thinks something really good is missing here?

Ordo Xenos Inq
-Conversion Beamer

Also does the necron codex state that you don't get an extra d6 for armor penetration or that you only get 1d6? If its the later then that's a little rough, if it's the former then that would mean that the turbo penetrator gets its 4d6 as that is the weapon profile.

IIRC it states that you don't get any extra penetration dice, and as such always roll S+D6, i.e. both of your options.

Hmmm, That should be another for the FAQ. The turbo pen round doesn't get "extra" d6, as in the melta rule, chainfist rule, MC rule, or the rending vs. armor rule. The round is a base of 4d6 without modification.