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LucasLAD wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

LucasLAD wrote:Am I the only one that thinks something really good is missing here?

Ordo Xenos Inq
-Conversion Beamer

Also does the necron codex state that you don't get an extra d6 for armor penetration or that you only get 1d6? If its the later then that's a little rough, if it's the former then that would mean that the turbo penetrator gets its 4d6 as that is the weapon profile.

IIRC it states that you don't get any extra penetration dice, and as such always roll S+D6, i.e. both of your options.

Hmmm, That should be another for the FAQ. The turbo pen round doesn't get "extra" d6, as in the melta rule, chainfist rule, MC rule, or the rending vs. armor rule. The round is a base of 4d6 without modification.

Which is why it was FAQ'd to work back when it was 3D6 in the DH Codex.

LucasLAD wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

LucasLAD wrote:Am I the only one that thinks something really good is missing here?

Ordo Xenos Inq
-Conversion Beamer

Also does the necron codex state that you don't get an extra d6 for armor penetration or that you only get 1d6? If its the later then that's a little rough, if it's the former then that would mean that the turbo penetrator gets its 4d6 as that is the weapon profile.

IIRC it states that you don't get any extra penetration dice, and as such always roll S+D6, i.e. both of your options.

Hmmm, That should be another for the FAQ. The turbo pen round doesn't get "extra" d6, as in the melta rule, chainfist rule, MC rule, or the rending vs. armor rule. The round is a base of 4d6 without modification.

Correct. The first necron faq that came out for 5th edition said the turbo round worked because it was a base 4d6 and not augmentation or extra penetration does as such. It also went on to explain which abilities did and didn't work. The newest necron faq, doesn't refer to any of these things, hence the confusuion


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This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard, right up there with all the other debates going on about this dex. The only thing that would be more stupid is if GW FAQed that to be true. I understand it's an outdated dex, but the last eldar dex had wraithlords with DCCW. I don't have a big book around me so I can't check it. I'll get back on that one.

EDIT:
Ok, checked it, and RAW that's probably right. I still think it's stupid though. The Daemon Hammer is only 10 points. For 10 points it gives you a thunder hammer AND S10? That would be way under priced. So RAW makes me think it's not S10, and points value and logic (knowing old MCs with DCCW) makes me think they are. Guess we will have to wait for a FAQ. Until then, they're S10 in my eyes.

It may or may not be stupid.

If they are strength 10 because of the arms, the DH really becomes worthless. The few situations where it would be helpful, the sword would still be a better option.

On the other hand, if the arms don't give you strength 10, the hammer has a purpose. Having dual arms wouldn't be useless either, since even though you would have lower strength, you still get 2d6 armor pen and have the added bonus of taking 2 ranged weapons if you want. Seeing as how you are always garaunteed to have 1 arm, and because you're an MC and can't suffer damage and lose your arms and lower your strength like a walker can, it actually seems silly for them to give the DK a base strength lower than 10 to begin with if it's arms always give it 10.

It's hard to tell what the actual intention was

they should have made the DK an AV13 walker and saved alot of grief.

omerakk wrote:

It may or may not be stupid.

If they are strength 10 because of the arms, the DH really becomes worthless. The few situations where it would be helpful, the sword would still be a better option.

On the other hand, if the arms don't give you strength 10, the hammer has a purpose. Having dual arms wouldn't be useless either, since even though you would have lower strength, you still get 2d6 armor pen and have the added bonus of taking 2 ranged weapons if you want. Seeing as how you are always garaunteed to have 1 arm, and because you're an MC and can't suffer damage and lose your arms and lower your strength like a walker can, it actually seems silly for them to give the DK a base strength lower than 10 to begin with if it's arms always give it 10.

It's hard to tell what the actual intention was

Having a Str less than 10 is for the sword. Making your hits auto shaken and making your target I1 is worth 10 points. Giving all of that AND raising the str from 6 to 10 is OP for 10 points. The sword allowing rerolls to everything is quite a bit more expensive than the hammer. The points just don't make sense to me if it's not already S10. I bring up again the old wraithlord with DCCW that made it S10. I still think this is RAI S10.

You are forgetting that 10 points is not the only cost; the cost is 10 points, plus a bonus attack.

10 points for normal damage+ I1 or Shaken(neither vs walkers), is fine.

10 points and 1 attack for normal damage+ I1 or Shaken(neither vs walkers), is not fine.

I am fine with giving up a bonus attack for Str 10(TH+SS Termies do this all the time, and they only get S8 for their bonus attack).

the greatsword would honestly be even more overcosted if it removed Str 10 and a bonus attack plus 25 points to do what it does(I am fine with removing the bonus attack as part of cost, that thing can be wicked).

LucasLAD wrote:

Hmmm, That should be another for the FAQ. The turbo pen round doesn't get "extra" d6, as in the melta rule, chainfist rule, MC rule, or the rending vs. armor rule. The round is a base of 4d6 without modification.

Armour penetration in the main rulebook: STR+D6.

Certain weapons and abilities commute extra dice beyond STR+D6.

The Necron codex specifies that extra dice to penetrate armour may not be used against Monoliths.

Kommissar Kel wrote:You are forgetting that 10 points is not the only cost; the cost is 10 points, plus a bonus attack.

I get that, but the great sword looses the attack too. I dunno, I just hope this gets FAQed one way or the other.

Kommissar Kel wrote:You are forgetting that 10 points is not the only cost; the cost is 10 points, plus a bonus attack.

10 points for normal damage+ I1 or Shaken(neither vs walkers), is fine.

10 points and 1 attack for normal damage+ I1 or Shaken(neither vs walkers), is not fine.

I am fine with giving up a bonus attack for Str 10(TH+SS Termies do this all the time, and they only get S8 for their bonus attack).

the greatsword would honestly be even more overcosted if it removed Str 10 and a bonus attack plus 25 points to do what it does(I am fine with removing the bonus attack as part of cost, that thing can be wicked).

Sword is a ccw.

Sword+fist=2ccw

Sword=s6

Fist=s10

Sword replaces one of the two fists, so the dk still has 2ccw.

Dashofpepper wrote:

LucasLAD wrote:

Hmmm, That should be another for the FAQ. The turbo pen round doesn't get "extra" d6, as in the melta rule, chainfist rule, MC rule, or the rending vs. armor rule. The round is a base of 4d6 without modification.

Armour penetration in the main rulebook: STR+D6.

Certain weapons and abilities commute extra dice beyond STR+D6.

The Necron codex specifies that extra dice to penetrate armour may not be used against Monoliths.

The Exitus rifle doesn't use STR+D6 to penetrate armour in this case, though. Yes, it falls under the general banner of 'sniper weapon' but it is listed in the GK codex as 'Exitus Rifle' and has a different profile to the standard 'Sniper Rifle' found in the SM codex. In the SM codex, a sniper rifle has an AP6 rating. The Exitus is AP1. To my mind, they are different weapons as this difference in stats proves and therefore they have their own rules. Furthermore, unlike the standard Sniper Rifle, when firing the Exitus Rifle, you have to stipulate which ammo you are going to fire and you then use the rules specific to that type of ammo when determining the effects it has. The Turbo Penetrator shot has an armour penetration value of 4D6 when attacking vehicles, nothing more, nothing less. There are no 'extra' dice rolled anywhere, otherwise the rules for it would tell you that the Turbo Penetrator has +3D6 in addition to it's STR+1D6 for armour pen.

You don't take into account any Strength ratings when using this shot against vehicles and you don't get any 'extra' dice because the codex doesn't allow any. The main rulebook clearly contains general rules then the codex expands or adds to these. Since the main rulebook doesn't contain rules for the Exitus Rifle, there's no choice in the matter - you can't follow the rules for it from anywhere but the codex which, when selecting the Turbo Penetrator round, tells you specifically that the armour pen value is a straight 4D6. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. Bad news for the monolith but not quite as OP as the view that you do indeed get STR+4D6 that I have also seen being suggested.

Grundz wrote:

jordab wrote:You only get one per elite slots, so you could field up to 3.

false, they are 0-1

per squad yes lol that means they dont have squads of more than ne vindicare but for every elites choice you can take 1

they are "Infantry(unique)"

that means you are limited to 1.

they also can't be joined by ICs and the like.


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schadenfreude wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:You are forgetting that 10 points is not the only cost; the cost is 10 points, plus a bonus attack.

10 points for normal damage+ I1 or Shaken(neither vs walkers), is fine.

10 points and 1 attack for normal damage+ I1 or Shaken(neither vs walkers), is not fine.

I am fine with giving up a bonus attack for Str 10(TH+SS Termies do this all the time, and they only get S8 for their bonus attack).

the greatsword would honestly be even more overcosted if it removed Str 10 and a bonus attack plus 25 points to do what it does(I am fine with removing the bonus attack as part of cost, that thing can be wicked).

Sword is a ccw.

Sword+fist=2ccw

Sword=s6

Fist=s10

Sword replaces one of the two fists, so the dk still has 2ccw.

Doomfist ONLY gives a 2CCW bonus if the 2nd weapon is another Doomfist.


having the sword means you can either attack at Str10 OR Str7 with rerolls.

Grey Templar wrote:they are "Infantry(unique)"

that means you are limited to 1.

they also can't be joined by ICs and the like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

schadenfreude wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:You are forgetting that 10 points is not the only cost; the cost is 10 points, plus a bonus attack.

10 points for normal damage+ I1 or Shaken(neither vs walkers), is fine.

10 points and 1 attack for normal damage+ I1 or Shaken(neither vs walkers), is not fine.

I am fine with giving up a bonus attack for Str 10(TH+SS Termies do this all the time, and they only get S8 for their bonus attack).

the greatsword would honestly be even more overcosted if it removed Str 10 and a bonus attack plus 25 points to do what it does(I am fine with removing the bonus attack as part of cost, that thing can be wicked).

Sword is a ccw.

Sword+fist=2ccw

Sword=s6

Fist=s10

Sword replaces one of the two fists, so the dk still has 2ccw.

Doomfist ONLY gives a 2CCW bonus if the 2nd weapon is another Doomfist.


having the sword means you can either attack at Str10 OR Str7 with rerolls.

Assuming that fists are meant to give S10 in the first place...

ColdSadHungry wrote: when selecting the Turbo Penetrator round, tells you specifically that the armour pen value is a straight 4D6. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. Bad news for the monolith but not quite as OP as the view that you do indeed get STR+4D6 that I have also seen being suggested.

*laughing*

You are correct. The Turbo-Penetrator gets 4D6 for armour penetration. However, specific > general. There exists ONE vehicle in 40k that quite explicitly tells you that you do NOT get additional dice beyond STR+D6.

However you want to try mincing words that 4D6 is not "extra" dice over 1D6 doesn't change the fact that it is. "Base dice" has nothing to do with it. Turning singular into plural has everything to do with it. Just like monstrous creatures have a "base" 2d6 armour penetration dice.

Actually, the MC entry in the rulebook doesn't say they get a base 2d6, it says they get an additional d6 for armor pen. We better all stop mincing words because this could go in circles forever lol. Besides, this thread is about av14 in general, and I think we are pretty close to hijacking the thread, so lets move this over to YMDC for a good debate

One question:

"
Doomfist ONLY gives a 2CCW bonus if the 2nd weapon is another Doomfist.


having the sword means you can either attack at Str10 OR Str7 with rerolls."

I know that's how walker attacks work, but is that how MC attacks work? I thought MC's just attacked with everything they had and applied all bonus's/penalties in combat. Or is that just Tyranid MC's?

Dashofpepper wrote: However, specific > general.

Ergo, the 4D6 rule which exists very specifically for the Exitus Rifle, overrules any other about extra dice being rolled. The 4D6 isn't in addition to anything so it can't be 'extra'.

ColdSadHungry wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote: However, specific > general.

Ergo, the 4D6 rule which exists very specifically for the Exitus Rifle, overrules any other about extra dice being rolled. The 4D6 isn't in addition to anything so it can't be 'extra'.

Can we just admit that nobody will be happy until there's a *new* FAQ and stop going back and forth? I think we're reached the point where we invoke "threefold repetition," like in chess. Everybody's used the same arguments in the same way enough times that it's obvious we're not getting anywhere.

I'm surprised this isn't in INAT so at least there's a ruling *somewhere*

Under the close combat weapon entry in the big book, you must choose which CCW to use (i.e. if you have a power fist and a lightnight claw you must choose if you want double str or reroll)