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Brother Ramses wrote:

Corrode wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:How is it rude to not help you beat me?

If we played, you would have in your hand a copy of my army list. I would point out my three rhinos at deployment, all marked with pack runes, and tell you which is in each rhino;

"This rhino has a GH pack with 2 meltasguns, this rhino has a GH pack with 2 flamers, and this rhino has a pack with 2 plasmaguns."

Now in turn 3 or 4, you move a dreadnought towards a rhino, and I pop out of the hatch and slag him with meltaguns, it was my responsibility to inform you that there were meltas in that rhino prior to you moving towards it despite me clearing outlining already what was inside said rhino not only in my list but also at deployment?

Situation A: I move a tank towards your Rhino. In your turn you melta it to death and I get upset because you didn't warn me that that Rhino had the melta squad in.
Situation B: I ask which of your Rhinos has the melta squad in. I then do not move towards it.

Do you see the difference between these two things? It's one thing to not play my game for me (I don't do it for other people either) but to ignore a direct question because of some rubbish about pack markings (which is not a foolproof system as units are perfectly capable of swapping transports mid-game for whatever reason) is extremely rude.

Are you even paying attention?

How about you add a couple of situations:

Situation C: You remember from the deployment phase where I already told you that that specific rhino is carrying a Grey Hunter pack with meltas and you DON'T move towards it.

or

Situation B: You remember in the turn before when I declared that a unit with meltaguns was embarking in that rhino and you DON'T move towards it.

No, but I can totally see how me having to hold your hand totally makes sense in a game that pretty much revolves around tactics.

I notice you keep ignoring that when a pack has to switch transports you declare that the unit is embarking.

With this kind of attitude you'd better not EVER forget ANYTHING. EVER. How is it holding someone's hand when they ACTIVELY have to ask what's in a certain unit? Is it really that hard for you to answer the question instead of going "should've paid attention, hurr" or "it's in the list, read it!"? Being social is part of the game, if you can't behave with at least some level of decency at a table then I can't honestly see what you're doing there.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Corrode wrote:Page 92 - a note on secrecy. Generally it's up to you and your opponent to decide whether you're playing closed-list, open-list, 'I can see your list once and then it's up to me to remember it' etc.

I've typically found in both friendly and tournament play that the expectation is that if at any point I want to check which unit is where or in which transport then that's my prerogative and you should be prepared to answer. Whether or not that's an actual rule is up to an individual TO or your agreement before the game, but I doubt you'd get much traction.

On a personal note, I'd find it rather rude of you to hide gear in a typical game of 40k - the purpose of the WYSIWYG rule is that I am able to tell visually what each unit has, and circumventing that by popping them in a transport doesn't really sit with me.

How is it rude to not help you beat me?

If we played, you would have in your hand a copy of my army list. I would point out my three rhinos at deployment, all marked with pack runes, and tell you which is in each rhino;

"This rhino has a GH pack with 2 meltasguns, this rhino has a GH pack with 2 flamers, and this rhino has a pack with 2 plasmaguns."

Now in turn 3 or 4, you move a dreadnought towards a rhino, and I pop out of the hatch and slag him with meltaguns, it was my responsibility to inform you that there were meltas in that rhino prior to you moving towards it despite me clearing outlining already what was inside said rhino not only in my list but also at deployment?

Firstly, you aren't actual reading what people are posting - no-one said you had to keep reminding your opponent but you have to answer if he asks.

Secondly, you came and asked a question and then argued with the response you got. Clearly, you had already made your mind up before you asked. You want to tell us about the incident which prompted you to ask the question?

No incident at all. Just wondering why after already voluntarily exchanging the pertinent information several times such as during deployment, when embarking/disembarking happens, and in addition to when the unit is actually visually on the board, why you must then involuntarily give up information to your opponent that he should have been paying attention for in the first place.

This is like forgetting to roll for reserves or something. Is that not a mistake that is on the commander's shoulders? Should your opponent be on top of that for you as well? How about when a person goes right into assault and forgets a unit that did not fire? Another mistake of a commander that got to excited to rush into assault and forgot firing to fire a key unit? Oh hey, go ahead and fire and wipe out my unit that you wanted to but forgot?

Brother Ramses wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Corrode wrote:Page 92 - a note on secrecy. Generally it's up to you and your opponent to decide whether you're playing closed-list, open-list, 'I can see your list once and then it's up to me to remember it' etc.

I've typically found in both friendly and tournament play that the expectation is that if at any point I want to check which unit is where or in which transport then that's my prerogative and you should be prepared to answer. Whether or not that's an actual rule is up to an individual TO or your agreement before the game, but I doubt you'd get much traction.

On a personal note, I'd find it rather rude of you to hide gear in a typical game of 40k - the purpose of the WYSIWYG rule is that I am able to tell visually what each unit has, and circumventing that by popping them in a transport doesn't really sit with me.

How is it rude to not help you beat me?

If we played, you would have in your hand a copy of my army list. I would point out my three rhinos at deployment, all marked with pack runes, and tell you which is in each rhino;

"This rhino has a GH pack with 2 meltasguns, this rhino has a GH pack with 2 flamers, and this rhino has a pack with 2 plasmaguns."

Now in turn 3 or 4, you move a dreadnought towards a rhino, and I pop out of the hatch and slag him with meltaguns, it was my responsibility to inform you that there were meltas in that rhino prior to you moving towards it despite me clearing outlining already what was inside said rhino not only in my list but also at deployment?

Firstly, you aren't actual reading what people are posting - no-one said you had to keep reminding your opponent but you have to answer if he asks.

Secondly, you came and asked a question and then argued with the response you got. Clearly, you had already made your mind up before you asked. You want to tell us about the incident which prompted you to ask the question?

No incident at all. Just wondering why after already voluntarily exchanging the pertinent information several times such as during deployment, when embarking/disembarking happens, and in addition to when the unit is actually visually on the board, why you must then involuntarily give up information to your opponent that he should have been paying attention for in the first place.

This is like forgetting to roll for reserves or something. Is that not a mistake that is on the commander's shoulders? Should your opponent be on top of that for you as well? How about when a person goes right into assault and forgets a unit that did not fire? Another mistake of a commander that got to excited to rush into assault and forgot firing to fire a key unit? Oh hey, go ahead and fire and wipe out my unit that you wanted to but forgot?

No, this is like your opponent asking if he fired with a squad or not and you refusing to respond. Once again, we're NOT saying that you have to warn your opponent about everything, but if you're asked a question: Don't be a TFG.

And for the record: Yes, you should be on top of people not rolling for reserves. They're an important part of the game, and it happens that people "forget" to roll for reserves so that they can get their units when a more opportune moment arises...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Corrode wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:How is it rude to not help you beat me?

If we played, you would have in your hand a copy of my army list. I would point out my three rhinos at deployment, all marked with pack runes, and tell you which is in each rhino;

"This rhino has a GH pack with 2 meltasguns, this rhino has a GH pack with 2 flamers, and this rhino has a pack with 2 plasmaguns."

Now in turn 3 or 4, you move a dreadnought towards a rhino, and I pop out of the hatch and slag him with meltaguns, it was my responsibility to inform you that there were meltas in that rhino prior to you moving towards it despite me clearing outlining already what was inside said rhino not only in my list but also at deployment?

Situation A: I move a tank towards your Rhino. In your turn you melta it to death and I get upset because you didn't warn me that that Rhino had the melta squad in.
Situation B: I ask which of your Rhinos has the melta squad in. I then do not move towards it.

Do you see the difference between these two things? It's one thing to not play my game for me (I don't do it for other people either) but to ignore a direct question because of some rubbish about pack markings (which is not a foolproof system as units are perfectly capable of swapping transports mid-game for whatever reason) is extremely rude.

Are you even paying attention?

How about you add a couple of situations:

Situation C: You remember from the deployment phase where I already told you that that specific rhino is carrying a Grey Hunter pack with meltas and you DON'T move towards it.

or

Situation B: You remember in the turn before when I declared that a unit with meltaguns was embarking in that rhino and you DON'T move towards it.

No, but I can totally see how me having to hold your hand totally makes sense in a game that pretty much revolves around tactics.

I notice you keep ignoring that when a pack has to switch transports you declare that the unit is embarking.

With this kind of attitude you'd better not EVER forget ANYTHING. EVER. How is it holding someone's hand when they ACTIVELY have to ask what's in a certain unit? Is it really that hard for you to answer the question instead of going "should've paid attention, hurr" or "it's in the list, read it!"? Being social is part of the game, if you can't behave with at least some level of decency at a table then I can't honestly see what you're doing there.

I have forgotten. Guess what? I accepted responsibility for making a tactical mistake in a tactics based game and had models killed which I had to chalk up to either getting to engrossed in another unit, too focused on an objective, or whatever took my attention away from remembering what I was facing on the game board.

If you as the player are supposed to represent the commander of an army, how is it NOT holding an opponents hand if you need to give him "intel" on your army whenever he asks? This is beside the points of having already revealed your army composition to him, explained unit composition and starting position, and then throughout the game updating him upon movement/embarking/disembarking.

Ramses; you keep making the same statement over and over again and we keep giving you the same response: YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

Do I have to yell it at you again?

Brother Ramses wrote: No incident at all. Just wondering why after already voluntarily exchanging the pertinent information several times such as during deployment, when embarking/disembarking happens, and in addition to when the unit is actually visually on the board, why you must then involuntarily give up information to your opponent that he should have been paying attention for in the first place.

This is like forgetting to roll for reserves or something. Is that not a mistake that is on the commander's shoulders? Should your opponent be on top of that for you as well? How about when a person goes right into assault and forgets a unit that did not fire? Another mistake of a commander that got to excited to rush into assault and forgot firing to fire a key unit? Oh hey, go ahead and fire and wipe out my unit that you wanted to but forgot?

the answer to "why" is simple: it's in the rules. Unless you agree to secrecy, if he asks, you tell. It's like moving 6" for movement and not 10" ..it's what the rules say. If they make a mistake, they make a mistake, but that's not the same as them asking what's what.

I don't know what your Alpha means, and perhaps you don't know what my venoms look like. It's in the spirit of the game. If that particular part of the game is annoying to you, then it makes perfect sense that you would find folks to play with where such a rule is suspended. Simply agree on it before hand.

Easypeasy.

You don't continually remind them. Thing is, if they forget to ask then yeah, they're out of luck. But if they are aware that, hey, there might be something bad in that tank, but I forget if it's bad for troops or bad for tanks, then they can ask and get an answer.

Think of it this way. They could instead take the time to write down what squad is in each tank, and make changes to that listing every time you move, disembark or reimbark the unit. That would take time, though, time that would take away from playing the game. OR they could ask the person who would know, thus not needing to take the time to write or consult a sheet of paper. It's the same either way, but by asking, they are in fact benefiting both you and they by allowing the game to move smoother, and take less time, allowing for more games in the long run.

But again, if they forget to ask in the first place, well, it's not your job to volunteer that information.

Brother Ramses wrote:I am of the opinion that after handing a copy of the army list over and explaining Grey Hunter pack composition at deployment as I mentioned above, I have done my fair share of sharing army information.

As I mentioned, the models on the table do not have our god-like knowledge of the battlefield. After the initial exchange of information, why continue giving god-like information to the opponent if they cannot remember or check the army list themselves? Sportsmanship?

Move-backs are not even being considered here. That is even worse then asking for squad comp IMO.


So by your standard I am going to feed tactical advice to my opponent because he is too lazy and inattentive to listen and remember what is what in my army despite me already informing him multiple times throughout the game as situations change?

It's common courtesy to answer if asked politely about what's in the transport. The person just wants a reminder and he makes his own tactical decisions, he does not want advice from you, merely a reminder.

BTW: With an attitude like that, you will not have to worry about rules issues too much, since there won't be too many people wanting to play you.

Dark Chaplain wrote:As far as i know from the tournaments i have played in. (Ard Boyz, GT's, Nova open) You are only required to give the list to your opponent. Clarify at the beginning of the game what units are in what transports. And lastly answer any questions when asked by your opponent. As for reminding him all the time what unit is where is totally up to you, but by no means required to do said practice.

i am pretty sure you have to disclose that a squad is in a transport or empty. you can be cryptic about it, the squad with red helmets is in that transport. You dont need to say "The squad with 4 melta guns is in that one."

Let's put it another way: You have no goddamn social skills at all if you're genuinely getting this upset about answering a simple question. You aren't 'the commander of your army', there's no 'intel' or 'recon' or anything else like that, you are one of two people playing a tabletop wargame with an assumption of shared knowledge.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Ramses; you keep making the same statement over and over again and we keep giving you the same response: YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

Do I have to yell it at you again?

What part of by having to tell him when he asks, it is the same exact thing as volunteering that information freely are you not understanding? I am not saying that you give him tactical advice, I am saying that by giving him information you are allowing him to make tactical decisions based on information you are giving him versus what he should have been paying attention to in the first place.

The result is exactly the same. You could tell him voluntarily and he bases his move off the information you have given him or he asks, you tell him involuntarily, and he bases his move off the information you have given him.

By revealing that information, in affect you are doing exactly as I pointed out before;

"Be sure not to get your armor too close to that rhino, it has dual meltaguns now."

or

"Be sure not to get your marines too close to that rhino, it has dual plasmaguns now."

or

"Be sure and not get your bugs too close to that rhino, it has dual flamers now."

If you're not disclosing you need to be consistent. So note on the roster how the rhino for squad A is different to the rhino for squad B

Exergy wrote:

Dark Chaplain wrote:As far as i know from the tournaments i have played in. (Ard Boyz, GT's, Nova open) You are only required to give the list to your opponent. Clarify at the beginning of the game what units are in what transports. And lastly answer any questions when asked by your opponent. As for reminding him all the time what unit is where is totally up to you, but by no means required to do said practice.

i am pretty sure you have to disclose that a squad is in a transport or empty. you can be cryptic about it, the squad with red helmets is in that transport. You dont need to say "The squad with 4 melta guns is in that one."

By far the best reply in this thread really. What is in that rhino? A Grey Hunter pack. I am at my office but then looking at this quote from earlier;

"In the same sprit, always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle."

Would imply that you could just tell them what is in the rhino, but are not required to tell them how they are equipped.

Corrode wrote:Let's put it another way: You have no goddamn social skills at all if you're genuinely getting this upset about answering a simple question. You aren't 'the commander of your army', there's no 'intel' or 'recon' or anything else like that, you are one of two people playing a tabletop wargame with an assumption of shared knowledge.

My opponents in both tournament and in pick-up games have an absolute blast playing me. I can give you my LGS phone number and both the manager and owner will attest to my social skills and gaming in their store. In fact every opponent at a 1000pt tournament just this past weekend told me how much fun it was to play me despite almost tabling two of them and losing by one kill point to the other.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Dark Chaplain wrote:As far as i know from the tournaments i have played in. (Ard Boyz, GT's, Nova open) You are only required to give the list to your opponent. Clarify at the beginning of the game what units are in what transports. And lastly answer any questions when asked by your opponent. As for reminding him all the time what unit is where is totally up to you, but by no means required to do said practice.

i am pretty sure you have to disclose that a squad is in a transport or empty. you can be cryptic about it, the squad with red helmets is in that transport. You dont need to say "The squad with 4 melta guns is in that one."

By far the best reply in this thread really. What is in that rhino? A Grey Hunter pack. I am at my office but then looking at this quote from earlier;

"In the same sprit, always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle."

Would imply that you could just tell them what is in the rhino, but are not required to tell them how they are equipped.

Corrode wrote:Let's put it another way: You have no goddamn social skills at all if you're genuinely getting this upset about answering a simple question. You aren't 'the commander of your army', there's no 'intel' or 'recon' or anything else like that, you are one of two people playing a tabletop wargame with an assumption of shared knowledge.

My opponents in both tournament and in pick-up games have an absolute blast playing me. I can give you my LGS phone number and both the manager and owner will attest to my social skills and gaming in their store. In fact every opponent at a 1000pt tournament just this past weekend told me how much fun it was to play me despite almost tabling two of them and losing by one kill point to the other.

I said all this in my first post: no you are never required to tell him the full details of the squad, only which squad. I even said just point at the squad on your side table; or indicate which squad it is on your list. The whole point is that your opponent has to then look at the squad models, or at your list to see what weapons they are carrying.

There is also a huge difference between volunteering the information without being asked, and being asked for the information.

Volunteering is giving your opponent tactical advise(and some opponents may not appreciate it).

Giving the information when asked is not giving the opponent tactical advise, it is providing him with the information to make his own tactical moves; information that he should already have, but has forgotten over the course of the game(Have you really never forgotten to shoot with a unit, or assault with a unit you had intended to?)

In 500-1000 point games, or certain low-model count armies then you should not ever really have need to ask, there is few enough models on the table that which transports cary which squads should be easy to keep track of. Spam lists are the same; if every Chimera is carrying a Melta-vet squad save 1 or 2 that have Plasma guns, it is easy to keep track.

This may sound a little convoluted but here goes.

What I do is designate each squad buy giving it a number (1,2,3… etc) I paint this number on the underside of the base in using a white paint pen. I do not tell my opponent what each squad is numbered.

I then take a plain base and write a number on it that corresponds with one of the numbered squads (say #2) and place it inside the transport. I show this to my opponent.

I tell my opponent “squad 2 is in this transport” And I show him/her the base with the number 2 on it.

I when it is time to disembark squad 2, I take the squad with “2” on the underside of their bases and place them on the table showing my opponent that the number on their base matches the number on the blank base inside the transport.

It keeps it secret and it keeps it fair

BR - the rules of the game require you, unless you have agreed otherwise, to answer questions about what units are in where.

That's it If you dont agree with those rules, then agree with your opponent to alter them

Or, if you get that upset about answering a simple question - expect all opponents to start writing down, in excruciating detail, exactly what youre doing. Or, simply tell the TO you're cheating.

As noted, the Note on Secrecy section of the rules, as well as the WYSIWYG guidelines, make clear that each player is entitled to know what every unit is equipped with at all times, and what transport which unit is in.

As noted, standard practice is to provide the information at the start of the game, and reiterate if needed whenever one's opponent directly asks.

While one might think that all opponents should be able to instantly memorize one's own scheme of squad markings, unit names, and exactly which of one to fifteen squads went where at the beginning of the game, and never forget any of those details or need reminding, in actual practice that's not how it normally works.

People commonly forget things here and there. The standard social practice and expectation is to readily and quickly answer direct questions about these things whenever they are asked. This is the quickest, easiest, and friendliest way to handle it, and is common practice around the world.

If a player prefers to play with more secrecy (whether it's Brother Ramses or Ma55ter Fett), that's fine, as long as they are on the same page with their opponents and said opponents consent before the game. That being said, most tournaments consider answering such questions to be part and parcel of their "open lists" policy along with exchanging lists at the start of the game.

Brother Ramses wrote:No incident at all. Just wondering why after already voluntarily exchanging the pertinent information several times such as during deployment, when embarking/disembarking happens, and in addition to when the unit is actually visually on the board, why you must then involuntarily give up information to your opponent that he should have been paying attention for in the first place.

This is like forgetting to roll for reserves or something. Is that not a mistake that is on the commander's shoulders? Should your opponent be on top of that for you as well? How about when a person goes right into assault and forgets a unit that did not fire? Another mistake of a commander that got to excited to rush into assault and forgot firing to fire a key unit? Oh hey, go ahead and fire and wipe out my unit that you wanted to but forgot?

Simple answer is:

Sometimes people forget things.

I find it more sporting to have all players involved know what is where and what can do what on the battlefield, it reduces the surprises and provides for a more sporting, and fun, game.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Ramses; you keep making the same statement over and over again and we keep giving you the same response: YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMIND THE OPPONENT UNLESS HE ASKS.

Do I have to yell it at you again?

What part of by having to tell him when he asks, it is the same exact thing as volunteering that information freely are you not understanding? I am not saying that you give him tactical advice, I am saying that by giving him information you are allowing him to make tactical decisions based on information you are giving him versus what he should have been paying attention to in the first place.

The result is exactly the same. You could tell him voluntarily and he bases his move off the information you have given him or he asks, you tell him involuntarily, and he bases his move off the information you have given him.

By revealing that information, in affect you are doing exactly as I pointed out before;

"Be sure not to get your armor too close to that rhino, it has dual meltaguns now."

or

"Be sure not to get your marines too close to that rhino, it has dual plasmaguns now."

or

"Be sure and not get your bugs too close to that rhino, it has dual flamers now."

So you want to win so badly at a toy soldiers game that you use guile and deception at a social event?

Whatever rocks your boat.

Brother Ramses wrote:
My opponents in both tournament and in pick-up games have an absolute blast playing me. I can give you my LGS phone number and both the manager and owner will attest to my social skills and gaming in their store. In fact every opponent at a 1000pt tournament just this past weekend told me how much fun it was to play me despite almost tabling two of them and losing by one kill point to the other.

Cool story, bro, but I think we will pass.

Alkasyn wrote:So you want to win so badly at a toy soldiers game that you use guile and deception at a social event?

Whatever rocks your boat.

Cool story, bro, but I think we will pass.

This should have been said on page 1.

I'm sorry, but Brother Ramses reeks of a troll. Can we just agree to call this thread done like dinner?

DoW

I am going to make a whole army of orks on foot wearing cloaks hiding their weapons.

Then I will tell you once what the units are then NEVAR AGAIN! No more tactical advice for you! I am going to make up an advantage not balanced by the rules to gain an advantage!

The game doesn't work with secrecy. If you don't want your opponent always asking, then put some models that are very clear on top of the transport so they can quickly understand what is there. You don't have the 'right' to win games by trying to hide weapons or units through obscurity and secrecy that isn't allowed by the rules.

If you try to take advantage, expect opponents to constantly be asking for 'what is where'.

Brother Ramses wrote:Do you understand that continually telling your opponent what is inside transports after you already have is pretty much eliminating your opponent from making stupid moves that you mention is not my responsibility?

Whoever talked about fluff above, it even makes less sense.

Dreadnought: "Commander, I do not remember what that enemy unit is capable of doing despite seeing them out in the open earlier."
Commander: "Well lets open up a communications link to them and ask their commander!"

So you want to spring traps. Might want to play a different game then, no traps for WH40k unless agreed beforehand.

But, as you refuse to differentiate between "Watch out, that Rhino is bad for you!" and "Whats inside that again?" "Melta.", I'll call seconds on trolling.

I think the question has been sufficiently answered, and enough people have dogpiled.