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Grey Templar wrote:
option 2: They will score, like troops. result=dred may hold objectives, exactly like if it was a scoring troop unit.

Might want to reword that to "dred may hold objectives, exactly like if it was a scoring non-vehicle troop unit.

I say not. As a reference (a little bit old btw) the Ravenwing assault unit specifies that the Land Speeder score, not writing anything about being like troop choice.

Pantso wrote:

elite_dannux wrote:Isnt this a case where codex special rule overrules BRB common rule?

So id say that the Dread is scoring. Mighty pointless to include them in the rule otherwise.

To make this a bit clearer, as long as in the Dreadnoughts profile there is the word Vehicle, it cannot score.
No matter if it's a Troop choice or not, a scoring unit may never be a vehicle
The GK rule doesn't override the vehicle restriction. It only allows the Dreadnought to be considered as a Troop choice in the FOC

Negative. This dread is NOT a troop choice in FOC. If this were the case then I would agree with you. The rule does not say vehicles can't score, it says that vehicles occupying the troop FOC can't score. The dread is not a troop, it just scores like one. This is the difference I'm talking about. It does not actually make the dread a troop, thus, can score.

As opposed to deffdreads, who actually become troops, and as such, can't score.

Sothas wrote:It does not actually make the dread a troop, thus, can score.

As if it were troops means as if it were troops, nothing else. It score as if it were a troop, thus it doesn't score at all.

The word "slot" is never mention in the scoring rules.

Nor is the FOC specifically.

Hmmm, I reread the grand strategy rules and the scoring rules and now I'm not so sure, I should not debate rules at 2 AM.

Wording in C:GK:

"can claim objectives as if they were troops."

Wording in the BGB:

"An army’s scoring units are all the units that come from its Troops allowance. The presence of other units may deny an objective to the enemy, but only Troops can control it. There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of Troops does not count as scoring:

• If it is a vehicle."

Now I'm leaning towards I have no idea, but chances are dreads still can't score. I see both sides though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:The word "slot" is never mention in the scoring rules.

Nor is the FOC specifically.

Yes it is, see my above post. FOC or FOC slot is just something we use to abreviate "allowance."

Sothas wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The word "slot" is never mention in the scoring rules.

Nor is the FOC specifically.

Yes it is, see my above post. FOC or FOC slot is just something we use to abreviate "allowance."

In other words, what I wrote was correct.

...but was it of material relevance?

It was.

He is saying that since they are not in the slot they are scoring as troops.

I am saying they do not need to be in the slot.

They allowance IS what they are given by the rule.

Which does not circumvent the restrictions, it necessarily requires them.

IMO the dread is able to score. Just seems silly for them include it as one of the units you can count as a "troop" if it isn't capable of actually scoring.

I think this is one thing in the long list of poorly worded or vague specials in the GK codex that unfortunately have a huge impact on the game.

Lets just hope for a FAQ sooner then Nids got theirs.

mch21689 wrote:Just seems silly for them include it as one of the units you can count as a "troop" if it isn't capable of actually scoring.

It just seems silly to choose the one unit that cannot score as troops to be counted as troops for scoring purposes.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
option 2: They will score, like troops. result=dred may hold objectives, exactly like if it was a scoring troop unit.

Might want to reword that to "dred may hold objectives, exactly like if it was a scoring non-vehicle troop unit.

Not necessary at all. There is a vehicle (BT Ravenwing Landspeeder) that can in fact score, because it specifically says so. His option 2 is valid for that view on the ruling.

If GS said "becomes scoring" etc. with no mention of troops, then this would not be an issue (at least, not for very long).

From what I can tell, the arguments are arising from the "...as if they were troops..." part of the paragraph.

I personlly read this as "The dreadnaught is not a 'troop' but scores in the same way as one." so personally I'd vote yes, they could. However, as always in this codex it'll need to be FAQ'd.

MA.

MaliceAngel wrote:From what I can tell, the arguments are arising from the "...as if they were troops..." part of the paragraph.

I personlly read this as "The dreadnaught is not a 'troop' but scores in the same way as one." so personally I'd vote yes, they could. However, as always in this codex it'll need to be FAQ'd.

MA.

The problem I have with that is that this codex was written by Matt Ward.

The same Matt Ward who wrote the Space Marine codex, which includes Pedro's line of "Sternguard Veteran squads are scoring units."

The same Matt Ward who wrote the Blood Angels codex, which includes a vehicle troop (DC Dreadnought) with absolutely no mention that they can't score, suggesting he already knew that Troop vehicles can't score.

He has dealt with this situation before, and (apparently) knows how to deal with it the way he intends.

Personally, I see three options here:

A) The "... as if they were troops" portion is intentional, and he wanted to forbid Dreadnoughts from scoring.
B) Matt Ward is a moron.
C) Both A and B.

I lean toward C, not because of this rule, but because of everything else that is flawed in the Grey Knight codex.

RAI: RAI is always biased and the reasoning behind it is typically vague. However, it is necessary there are times where RAW would completely break the game in certain instances. RAI, I would say the dreadnaught could capture.

RAW: No way to argue. It says it right there. Troops that are 'vehicles' (which a 'walker' is a sub-type of a 'vehicle') cannot capture. Thus, they cannot capture.

I prefer to go with as much RAW as possible until it is literally impossible for RAW to work. If RAW would completely break the game in a particular instance, then RAI needs to be invoked. However, in this instance, RAW doesn't break the game. It just makes a rule semi-useless.

My vote: No. Dreadnaughts cannot capture.

EDIT:

Just more evidence that GW hates their customers.

MaliceAngel wrote:From what I can tell, the arguments are arising from the "...as if they were troops..." part of the paragraph.

I personlly read this as "The dreadnaught is not a 'troop' but scores in the same way as one." so personally I'd vote yes, they could. However, as always in this codex it'll need to be FAQ'd.

MA.

So you're saying my Chimera transports, which are troops, can score? That's what a Yes vote equates to, ya know.....................

don_mondo wrote:

MaliceAngel wrote:From what I can tell, the arguments are arising from the "...as if they were troops..." part of the paragraph.

I personlly read this as "The dreadnaught is not a 'troop' but scores in the same way as one." so personally I'd vote yes, they could. However, as always in this codex it'll need to be FAQ'd.

MA.

So you're saying my Chimera transports, which are troops, can score? That's what a Yes vote equates to, ya know.....................

No, Chimeras are never troops. They are dedicated transports for troops, elites, and HQs. This rule doesn't make any units into troops, like a Big Mek making a Deff Dread into a troop; it simply says that the unit may SCORE like a troops unit.

As much as I hate this codex, and all of the BS special rules associated with it, this rule seems pretty cut and dry.

augustus5 wrote:No, Chimeras are never troops.

Yes they are. Dedicated Transports are considered to be the same FOC as the unit they were bought for (although they do not actually take up any of the maximum).

This is why, in Dawn of War, a Tactical Squad and a Rhino count as two Troops.

Can anyone think of a reason why they're included in the rule if not to be able to score?

Because there are 3 other options that they can benefit from.

Abaddon wrote:Can anyone think of a reason why they're included in the rule if not to be able to score?

Because, as was said in the other thread, there are 3 other rules that they could be given.

Also, this is the codex that has Brotherhood Champions (who reroll all misses) with the option of taking Digital Weapons (which lets you reroll one miss).

This codex was not designed very well, and it is tough to know what the RaI even is.

Ah. I thought walkers were included in the actual rule. This makes more sense.

It could still go either way, and I think I'll play the devil's advocate and say that the FAQ will allow them to score. Who knows

don_mondo wrote:

MaliceAngel wrote:From what I can tell, the arguments are arising from the "...as if they were troops..." part of the paragraph.

I personlly read this as "The dreadnaught is not a 'troop' but scores in the same way as one." so personally I'd vote yes, they could. However, as always in this codex it'll need to be FAQ'd.

MA.

So you're saying my Chimera transports, which are troops, can score? That's what a Yes vote equates to, ya know.....................

Nope, what I'm reading it as is:

You have a dread who IS NOT a troop choice but scores as if he were one. To break it down:

You have an elite/heavy support dread. This rule allows it/them to score as if it was a troop (which it is not.) hence, this is my logic as to why it could score. I can see the other side of this argument and where you're coming from, however.

Let's just agree to disagree and wait for the FAQ.

MA.

augustus5 wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

MaliceAngel wrote:From what I can tell, the arguments are arising from the "...as if they were troops..." part of the paragraph.

I personlly read this as "The dreadnaught is not a 'troop' but scores in the same way as one." so personally I'd vote yes, they could. However, as always in this codex it'll need to be FAQ'd.

MA.

So you're saying my Chimera transports, which are troops, can score? That's what a Yes vote equates to, ya know.....................

No, Chimeras are never troops. They are dedicated transports for troops, elites, and HQs. This rule doesn't make any units into troops, like a Big Mek making a Deff Dread into a troop; it simply says that the unit may SCORE like a troops unit.

As much as I hate this codex, and all of the BS special rules associated with it, this rule seems pretty cut and dry.

As already pointed out, a dedicated transport is the same Force Org type as it's unit, so yes, Chimeras can indeed be Troop units. But as they are vehicles, they cannot score. So why should a Dread that "can score in the same way as Troops" be able to score when a vehicle that is Troops cannot? I agree tho, I also think it's pretty cut and dry, just seems we don't agree on which direction it's cut and dried in........................

Well I guess this thread has run it's course. It was actually a bit closer than I anticipated (I thought the "yes" group was going to be absolutely hammered by the "no" group). But regardless I have my answer and I hope this thread has proved useful to others.

...No more scoring dreads for me then (or at least for now *insert maniacal laughter here*).

seems pretty clear. it is not calling them a scoring unit.

Its saying they can claim objectives

They can claim objectives despite not being scoring.

frgsinwntr wrote:seems pretty clear. it is not calling them a scoring unit.

Its saying they can claim objectives

They can claim objectives despite not being scoring.

I think this might be the right answer, as strange as it seems.

If the rule said "the units become scoring" then it would have been clearly "yes".
If it had said "are treated as troops for purposes of scoring" then it would have been clearly "no" (because vehicles are excluded from being scoring, not from claiming objectives).

But by using the language "may claim objectives" suggests that they are able to function like scoring units without actually being scoring. I can see it going either way.

biccat wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:seems pretty clear. it is not calling them a scoring unit.

Its saying they can claim objectives

They can claim objectives despite not being scoring.

I think this might be the right answer, as strange as it seems.

If the rule said "the units become scoring" then it would have been clearly "yes".
If it had said "are treated as troops for purposes of scoring" then it would have been clearly "no" (because vehicles are excluded from being scoring, not from claiming objectives).

But by using the language "may claim objectives" suggests that they are able to function like scoring units without actually being scoring. I can see it going either way.

OK I think this conversation is simply about how people would like to play the rule and so how they like to read/interpret it.

Reading this for me is a clear NO because it violates the scoring units restrictions.

To elaborate my thoughts a bit. The rule says "The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were Troops"
This means that it says to treat a unit from the i.e. Elites as if it belongs to the Troops in the FOC.
The rules doesn't remove or change the Unit Type "Vehicle" from the Dreadnought. So as long as the Dread is a vehicle it
cannot score no matter from what slot in the FOC it came from. The only way for this to work would be if it said something
like "The nominated units count as Infantry Unit Type and can claim objectives as if they were Troops"

It's as clear as my Blood Angels Death Company Dreadnoughts. They are Troops but since they violate the non-vehicle restriction
they cannot score. I do agree that after the FAQ come out this will be cleared (whether yes or no) but for now strictly RAW sorry but they cannot score.

So just as a GK player wouldn't let me claim an objective with my DC Dread, I wouldn't let him claim one with his.

I think the people in the YES camp seem to be lacking the final step of their logic. What I am seeing is:

The unit may claim objectives as if they were troops.

The unit may claim objectives

claim objectives

Therefore the Dreadnought can score.


While true, you're leaving out the modifier. This is the same mistake as:

The Russians invaded America, with immigrants.

The Russians invaded America

Russia invaded America

Therefore we are at war with Russia.

DON'T IGNORE THE MODIFIERS.

The "as if they were Troops" part of the rule IS VERY IMPORTANT and quite literally means that a dreadnought cannot score under this rule, no questions asked.

Pantso wrote:The rules doesn't remove or change the Unit Type "Vehicle" from the Dreadnought. So as long as the Dread is a vehicle it
cannot score no matter from what slot in the FOC it came from. The only way for this to work would be if it said something
like "The nominated units count as Infantry Unit Type and can claim objectives as if they were Troops"

You're argument seems to be that only scoring units can hold objectives, and therefore, that any unit that can hold an objective must be a scoring unit.

If we have a rule: "If A, then B", it does not necessarily follow that "If B, then A".

This may not necessarily be the case, as frgsinwntr pointed out: a unit may be able to control an objective without being scoring.