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biccat wrote:

Pantso wrote:The rules doesn't remove or change the Unit Type "Vehicle" from the Dreadnought. So as long as the Dread is a vehicle it
cannot score no matter from what slot in the FOC it came from. The only way for this to work would be if it said something
like "The nominated units count as Infantry Unit Type and can claim objectives as if they were Troops"

You're argument seems to be that only scoring units can hold objectives, and therefore, that any unit that can hold an objective must be a scoring unit.

If we have a rule: "If A, then B", it does not necessarily follow that "If B, then A".

This may not necessarily be the case, as frgsinwntr pointed out: a unit may be able to control an objective without being scoring.

Well thinking this way, you are ignoring the rule in the BRB that says

"The concept of scoring units is central to the first two standard missions, which are won or lost by controlling more objectives than the enemy, and only scoring units can do that."

So for the Dreadnought to be able to claim objective it must do it as Troops do it. Pass a short checklist, and if everything validates then it
can claim it. To say that in other words, all scoring units must come from the Troop choice but not all troop choices are scoring units (i.e. DC
Dreadnought cause it's a vehicle.)

Here is a a short checklist after the Grand Strategy roll

Troop Choice - passed
Swarm SR - passed
SR specifying it never counts as a scoring unit - passed
If it is a vehicle - oh nooes ! it's still a vehicle

Pantso - Grand Strategy does not give your dreadnought permission to score or to hold objectives. It gives your dreadnought (and all other listed units) permission to count as troops for that purpose.

Your purifiers - now count as troops for the purpose of scoring. Your Interceptors - now count as troops for the purpose of scoring. Your dreadnoughts - can now count as troops for the purpose of scoring.

NONE of those examples make any of the listed units scoring in themselves, because there are *other* requirements to be a scoring unit.

Grand Strategy hits the first one: Counts as troop choice: Check.
There's another one: May not be a vehicle: Not check.

Its quite distinct actually. Other armies have troop choice dreadnoughts. They may not score either. Guess what they have? Dreadnoughts that ARE troop choices for scoring purposes. Not just counts as dreadnoughts. All dedicated transports for troop units ARE troop choices for scoring purposes. When you deploy in DoW, you get 1 HQ and two troop units; a dedicated transport for either counts against your allocation.

If GK dreadnoughts get to score because they count as troops for scoring purposes, then so does EVERY OTHER VEHICLE IN WARHAMMER 40K that fits into the troop FoC.

Except...none of them do, because they are still vehicles.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Pantso - Grand Strategy does not give your dreadnought permission to score or to hold objectives. It gives your dreadnought (and all other listed units) permission to count as troops for that purpose.

Your purifiers - now count as troops for the purpose of scoring. Your Interceptors - now count as troops for the purpose of scoring. Your dreadnoughts - can now count as troops for the purpose of scoring.

NONE of those examples make any of the listed units scoring in themselves, because there are *other* requirements to be a scoring unit.

Grand Strategy hits the first one: Counts as troop choice: Check.
There's another one: May not be a vehicle: Not check.

Its quite distinct actually. Other armies have troop choice dreadnoughts. They may not score either. Guess what they have? Dreadnoughts that ARE troop choices for scoring purposes. Not just counts as dreadnoughts. All dedicated transports for troop units ARE troop choices for scoring purposes. When you deploy in DoW, you get 1 HQ and two troop units; a dedicated transport for either counts against your allocation.

If GK dreadnoughts get to score because they count as troops for scoring purposes, then so does EVERY OTHER VEHICLE IN WARHAMMER 40K that fits into the troop FoC.

Except...none of them do, because they are still vehicles.

Errrm... yes that's exactly what I'm saying and sorry if I was misunderstood I'm with the "No" party
This is why I keep bringing up the DC Dreadnought all the time.
Cause the DC Dread can't score for the same reason that GK Dread can't score.
They were/are/always be VEHICLES

Dashofpepper wrote:Except...none of them do

Except DA Ravenwing Land Speeders (when taking the Master of the Ravenwing).

Oh, and I think you and Pantso said... the exact same thing. I'm not sure if you meant to address him or not.

Like I said before, Matt Ward knows how this works. If he wanted them to actually be able to score, he would've said so in the codex.

Oops. =p

Well, I think its safe to say at the moment that about 44% of respondents either have no idea what the issue under discussion is (a common Dakka issue unfortunately, not just here), or have no grasp of how the rules work.

I mean, there *are* some YMDC truly sensitive issues that have hard-lines drawn in the sand by two parties and go around and around because there is no black and white.....but this ain't one of 'em.

Pantso wrote:Well thinking this way, you are ignoring the rule in the BRB that says

"The concept of scoring units is central to the first two standard missions, which are won or lost by controlling more objectives than the enemy, and only scoring units can do that."

A codex could specify that non-scoring units are able to capture objectives, and that is what the Grey Knights codex appears to allow. "[Dreadnoughts] can capture objectives as if they were troops." It doesn't specify that they're scoring.

Pantso wrote:So for the Dreadnought to be able to claim objective it must do it as Troops do it. Pass a short checklist, and if everything validates then it
can claim it. To say that in other words, all scoring units must come from the Troop choice but not all troop choices are scoring units (i.e. DC
Dreadnought cause it's a vehicle.)

Here is a a short checklist after the Grand Strategy roll

Troop Choice - passed
Swarm SR - passed
SR specifying it never counts as a scoring unit - passed
If it is a vehicle - oh nooes ! it's still a vehicle

I believe I dealt with this above. The dreadnoughts don't have to be scoring to capture an objective.

biccat wrote:

Pantso wrote:Well thinking this way, you are ignoring the rule in the BRB that says

"The concept of scoring units is central to the first two standard missions, which are won or lost by controlling more objectives than the enemy, and only scoring units can do that.

A codex could specify that non-scoring units are able to capture objectives, and that is what the Grey Knights codex appears to allow. "[Dreadnoughts] can capture objectives as if they were troops." It doesn't specify that they're scoring.

I believe I dealt with this above. The dreadnoughts don't have to be scoring to capture an objective.

Dreadnoughts can't capture objectives when they're troops, either.

biccat wrote:

Pantso wrote:Well thinking this way, you are ignoring the rule in the BRB that says

"The concept of scoring units is central to the first two standard missions, which are won or lost by controlling more objectives than the enemy, and only scoring units can do that."

A codex could specify that non-scoring units are able to capture objectives, and that is what the Grey Knights codex appears to allow. "[Dreadnoughts] can capture objectives as if they were troops." It doesn't specify that they're scoring.

Literally the only purpose the words "as if they were Troops" serves is to disqualify Dreads. If Matt Ward (who also wrote the BA codex, which has a Troops Dreadnought) had wanted Dreads to score he could have saved space and ink by just writing that the indicated units "can hold objectives" or "are scoring units". But he didn't do that. Compare with the Dark Angels codex, which simply and explicitly tells us that Ravenwing landspeeders in an army with Sammael are scoring units.

Instead, we have a wording which allows Dreadnoughts to be on the list of affected units for Grand Strategy and benefit from its other three effects, but excludes them from holding objectives.

Mannahnin wrote:

biccat wrote:

Pantso wrote:Well thinking this way, you are ignoring the rule in the BRB that says

"The concept of scoring units is central to the first two standard missions, which are won or lost by controlling more objectives than the enemy, and only scoring units can do that."

A codex could specify that non-scoring units are able to capture objectives, and that is what the Grey Knights codex appears to allow. "[Dreadnoughts] can capture objectives as if they were troops." It doesn't specify that they're scoring.

Literally the only purpose the words "as if they were Troops" serves is to disqualify Dreads. If Matt Ward (who also wrote the BA codex, which has a Troops Dreadnought) had wanted Dreads to score he could have saved space and ink by just writing that the indicated units "can hold objectives" or "are scoring units". But he didn't do that. Compare with the Dark Angels codex, which simply and explicitly tells us that Ravenwing landspeeders in an army with Sammael are scoring units.

Instead, we have a wording which allows Dreadnoughts to be on the list of affected units for Grand Strategy and benefit from its other three effects, but excludes them from holding objectives.

I agree with your consensus, but I wouldn't try to argue RAI when dealing with Ward; especially with the sheer amount of disputes in this codex.
NOBODY has any clue what this guy truely intended ><

Mannahnin wrote:Literally the only purpose the words "as if they were Troops" serves is to disqualify Dreads. If Matt Ward (who also wrote the BA codex, which has a Troops Dreadnought) had wanted Dreads to score he could have saved space and ink by just writing that the indicated units "can hold objectives" or "are scoring units". But he didn't do that. Compare with the Dark Angels codex, which simply and explicitly tells us that Ravenwing landspeeders in an army with Sammael are scoring units.

You're arguing RAI, not RAW. I don't think either RAI or RAW are clear on this issue.

I agree that Dreadnoughts probably shouldn't be able to hold objectives, but the rule is not clear.

I'm pointing out some circumstantial evidence which might help people deduce the intent. The RAW has been covered a bunch of times.

I can get why people would not understand it, but I don't think it's especially unclear.

It is clear that when claiming objectives as troops, vehicles do not claim objectives.

I believe they do score as per the RAW.

pg.90 BRB addresses,

An army's scoring units are all the units that come from its Troops choice. The presence of other units may deny an objective to the enemy, but only Troops can control it. There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of Troops does not count as scoring:
- If it is a vehicle."

This would apply to DC dreads, Deffdreads, etc, etc. Actual vehicle units that are Troops. They take up a Troops FOC slot, they are deployed as Troops, etc, etc.

However if we look at the Grand Strategy rule,

Pg. 22 Codex: Grey Knights

Unyielding Anvil: A key position must be seized for victory to be won. The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were troops.

At no time would a GK Dreadnought given Unyielding Anvil become a "unit of Troops". It remains a Heavy unit, chosen from the Heavy FOC slot, deployed as a Heavy, etc, etc. It is a Heavy unit that can claim objectives as if they were troops. As I said, it is never a Troops unit and is therefore never bound by the limitation given to a vehicle Troops unit of not being able to count as scoring.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Unyielding Anvil: A key position must be seized for victory to be won. The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were troops.

At no time would a GK Dreadnought given Unyielding Anvil become a "unit of Troops". It remains a Heavy unit, chosen from the Heavy FOC slot, deployed as a Heavy, etc, etc. It is a Heavy unit that can claim objectives as if they were troops. As I said, it is never a Troops unit and is therefore never bound by the limitation given to a vehicle Troops unit of not being able to count as scoring.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Unyielding Anvil: A key position must be seized for victory to be won. The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were troops.

At no time would a GK Dreadnought given Unyielding Anvil become a "unit of Troops". It remains a Heavy unit, chosen from the Heavy FOC slot, deployed as a Heavy, etc, etc. It is a Heavy unit that can claim objectives as if they were troops. As I said, it is never a Troops unit and is therefore never bound by the limitation given to a vehicle Troops unit of not being able to count as scoring.

So your heavy support choice can claim objectives as if they were troops. That means that they fall under the rules for how troops capture objectives. What are those rules?

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
pg.90 BRB addresses,

An army's scoring units are all the units that come from its Troops choice. The presence of other units may deny an objective to the enemy, but only Troops can control it. There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of Troops does not count as scoring:
- If it is a vehicle."

Interesting. Is a dreadnought that scores as if it were a troop choice a vehicle?

For what it's worth, I talked to Mike Brandt this morning (Nova Open TO) to get a ruling. He said that he's still "undecided" but that RAW, Unyielding Anvil does not make dreadnoughts capable of scoring, so he'll probably go that way)

IE, if you're going to the Nova Open (and since the big TOs talk to each other, presume they're pretty much going to all rule the same way) or any other event, don't anticipate your dreadnoughts scoring.

No, they do not fall under the rules for a unit of Troops, because they are not a unit of Troops.

At no time is the GK dreadnought with Unyielding Anvil, a Troop unit. You don't check to see how a dreadnought scores and you don't check how a dreadnought claims an objective. All you do is check how a troop claims an objective and apply that standard to whatever unit has Unyielding Anvil, regardless of their unit type.

Just to add, the restrictions that a unit of Troops that are vehicles does not apply to a vehicle unit that can claim objectives as troops. There is a fundamental difference between a unit of Troops that is a vehicle and a vehicle that can claim objectives as troops.

Just my cents in here: the rule dont say the unit turn into a troop... it just say say that unit pass to claim objectives like a troop would do.

That way, the codex would create a new rule who say: the dreadnought can claim objectives like a troop do, he is not a troop indeed.

As that is a codex rule, is supress the Corerulebook rule who say Vehicles cannot claim objectives...

If the rule of Grand Strategy stated that "the unit becomes a troop", them the dread would not claim objectives, as even when troop it could not do that...

If a vehicle is capturing objectives "as troops" they must in that instance refer to troops rules. Any other interpretation wold make the wording "as troops" redundant and, unless GW says otherwise, it surly cannot be redundant. It has one interpretation that is backed up by rules or the phrase "as troops" can be ignored.

my opinion would be: don't ignore the rules

arkapello wrote:If a vehicle is capturing objectives "as troops" they must in that instance refer to troops rules. Any other interpretation wold make the wording "as troops" redundant and, unless GW says otherwise, it surly cannot be redundant. It has one interpretation that is backed up by rules or the phrase "as troops" can be ignored.

my opinion would be: don't ignore the rules

I agree completely. Refer to the rules for troops claiming an objective, not a unit of Troop vehicles.

The rules say that the dread claims objectives as if it were troops. It doesn't claim objectives as any generic troop, it claims as if IT were troops. If it were troops, it wouldn't score.

Wow.....this whole thread....just Wow.....

Thread has gotten circular and silly. The arguments seem to have been exhausted.