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The Grand Strategy states:

At the start of the game, before forces are deployed, the Grand Master can assign special battlefield roles to units under his command. Roll a D3 and choose that many infantry, jump infantry, monstrous creature or walker units in your army (but not models with the Independant Character special rule, Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands or Grand Master Mordrak's unit of Ghost Knights). These nominated units has one of the following roles for the duration of the game (they must all have the same role).

Unyielding Anvil special rule:

A key position must be seized for victory to be won. The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were Troops.

Please answer how you choose to play the game, not necessarily RAW (rules as written), but do not engage in a discussion or argument with other posters...there is already a thread in the YMDC forum for that.

For those who wish to engage in a discussion the appropriate thread can be found here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365591.page


The reason for this thread is simply because I put a lot of stock in Dakka (as I guess a lot of other members here do) so whichever way the poll runs I will use in our FLGS until the FAQ is out.

How is there a deba te? It's pretty well established that it's a yes. The grand strategy says they can. Simple as that.

There's a debate because it's not quite that straightforward. See this thread.

Vehicles don't score even if they're Troops. Thus No.

Rules As Intended seems to be yes.

What is this Grand Strategy rule?

GS can make them score as troops, but vehicle troops may never score.
So, they cannot score because they are vehicles....pretty simple.

There are other GS abilities that the Dreads can use, scoring just ins't oe of them.

The question is, then, if walkers cannot benefit from the rule, why were they included in it?

I can't think of any scenarios outside of the obvious where they'd be able to make use of it, either.

It says that the list of units it gives benifits from all the possible rules you may choose from. Why then would walkers be excluded when it doesn't say they are. The BGB says that if a rule in a dex over rides the BGB then use the dex rule. The dex rule is pretty clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll leave out the bits that don't apply.

Roll a D3 and choose that many infantry, jump infantry, monstrous creature or walker units in your army (stuff about excluding ICs, warbands and mordrak). These nominated units have one of the following roles for the duration of the game (they must all have the same role).

Then

The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were troops.

I.e. they are not troops, thus voiding the "troop vehicles can't score" argument. This rule clearly overrides the BGB rule.

Analysis: You may nominate up to D3 units. One of the nominated units can be of the 'walker' type. The nominated units may score as if they were a troop choice but are not troops. This is a perfect example of the "dex can break BGB rules." that the BGB specifically says can happen. I really don't understand where the confusion is.

Sothas wrote:
Analysis: You may nominate up to D3 units. One of the nominated units can be of the 'walker' type. The nominated units may score as if they were a troop choice but are not troops. This is a perfect example of the "dex can break BGB rules." that the BGB specifically says can happen. I really don't understand where the confusion is.

Im afraid if saying it wrong but what the hell I'll give it a try!

The BRB rules say that scoring units are all units that come from its Troops allowance.
However this talks only for non-vehicle units, that don't have the Swarm special rule, and that don't have a SR that states it can never be scoring (i.e. Blood Angels Death Company)
The Dread is of Walker,Vehicle unit type. So even if it says that it can score as a Troop choice (meaning that in its like adding it to the Troop Choice in the FOC) it is still a vehicle
so according to the BRB it cannot score !

EDIT: This is like the DC Dreadnought ruling ! It's in Troop Choices but since it's a vehicle it cannot score !

Isnt this a case where codex special rule overrules BRB common rule?

So id say that the Dread is scoring. Mighty pointless to include them in the rule otherwise.

They Score like Troops to, Troop vehicles don't score so they don't score.

elite_dannux wrote:Isnt this a case where codex special rule overrules BRB common rule?

So id say that the Dread is scoring. Mighty pointless to include them in the rule otherwise.

To make this a bit clearer, as long as in the Dreadnoughts profile there is the word Vehicle, it cannot score.
No matter if it's a Troop choice or not, a scoring unit may never be a vehicle
The GK rule doesn't override the vehicle restriction. It only allows the Dreadnought to be considered as a Troop choice in the FOC

elite_dannux wrote:Isnt this a case where codex special rule overrules BRB common rule?

No. And anyway, that's not how the rules work. The more specific rule trumps the more general rule where they conflict. For example, the armor saves rules say if you have an armor save you get to take it before you suffer a wound. But the power weapon rules say you don't get your armor save. This is a conflict, so the power weapon (more specific) takes precedence. Codex rules are usually more specific than main rulebook rules, but not in all cases.

Anyway, your premise is flawed because in this case there is no conflict. Grand Strategy allows you to nominate 1-3 units and give them one of four special rules/effects. Three of those rules work just fine for Dreads. The other states that the units score like Troops. This works fine for non-Vehicle units, but won't make Dreads scoring, for the same reason that Death Company Dreads and Ork Dreads taken as Troops can't score.

elite_dannux wrote:So id say that the Dread is scoring. Mighty pointless to include them in the rule otherwise.

Not at all, given that the other three effects for the rule work just fine on Dreads.

OP: Polls do not have any effect on rules at all. All this thread does is you purposefully ignoring the arguments brought forth against you in the other thread, and hoping for a random poll voting to give you any holding ground, which you rules-wise don't have.

I understand that there are no rules effect with a poll. I was just going to use whatever the majority turns out to be and I figured others could also use it too.

I'm not ignoring arguments, but when the result is unclear (as I believe it is) then I will just go with the general consensus for my games.

Lukus83 wrote:I understand that there are no rules effect with a poll. I was just going to use whatever the majority turns out to be and I figured others could also use it too.

I'm not ignoring arguments, but when the result is unclear (as I believe it is) then I will just go with the general consensus for my games.

The result is perfectly clear. Vehicles scoring as if they were troops do not score.

If there was a perfectly clear result then there wouldn't be a 3 page discussion in this forum. And as I said...please keep the arguments outside this thread.

The existence of a discussion does not prove anything. Just because you argue with a policeman for giving you a ticket does not make the fact of you ignoring the speeding limits any less clear. If you evaluate the arguments pro and contra:

Pro scoring:
"They are in included in grand strategy!"
"Scoring as troops is not the same as troops scoring."
"I don't think so."
"This is not RAI."

Contra scoring:
Actual rules for troops scoring excluding vehicles
Existing walkers that are troops not scoring.

Basicly the "pro"-side has not brought forth any argument that actually holds its ground, and refuses to back down or bring actual arguments from rules, that's why the thread is 3 pages.

Ugh, there's ANOTHER thread on this?

Hey guys, I have a question about Deffrollas...

Look I'm just looking for an answer I can use in game, regardless of the outcome.

And I think this kind of poll has a use. I explain why in my very first post. From your train of thought every difficult situation has to be resolved one way...but what if there are multiple versions of reading the rules or the solution is ambiguous? It is not clear cut.

In that case, you should probably do yourself and the poll a service and edit your OP to include the compelling arguments from either side illustrating why one would think one way versus another. Basically just a "Against: Because dreadnoughts are vehicles and it STILL doesn't give vehicle troops the ability to score" and "For: Because it says to CLAIM OBJECTIVES like troops, they become scoring, regardless of other restrictions."

Should at least keep people well informed

Unfortunately am out of time today...will edit it tomorrow.

You can't read this rule in another way, unless you want to. There are rules which really can not be solved, due to missing rules or rules giving an open-ended definition of things. This is not one of them. The real problem is people using "THIS IS UNCLEAR!!!" or "We have to agree to disagree" as a validation to ignore what actual rules say.

strictly RAW: no

RAI: yes.

Grey Templar wrote:strictly RAW: no

RAI: yes.

RAW: No.
RAI: HELL NO..see Death Company Dreads and Ork Dreads to see why.

Dreads are included in GS because of the other 3 rules that work for them. It would take more ink and time to clarify thay they cannot score with GS, which of course there is no need to do, since the rules already make it VERY clear that vehicles cannot score.
One GS ability would allow them to score as if they were tropps. Too bad for them that Vehicles that are troops cannot score; so, picking this one ability of GS is useless for dreads...they have 3 other choices of GS rules that they can use just fine.

Live with it

I don't really care either way as when i run GMs i have better things to do with GS then make Dreds scoring.

Jidmah, you've expressed your opinion very clearly. The OP laid out the purpose and intent of the thread very well in the initial post.

That being said, the point is well-made that it is best to lay out the various arguments on a topic like this in the initial post, in as neutral a manner as possible.

Lukas83, Yakface has pretty much perfected the format for what you're trying to do here. I suggest going into his Threads Created page and look at a couple of his rules poll topics from YMDC. They're REALLY well-done, and I suggest modeling yours on his.

elite_dannux wrote:Isnt this a case where codex special rule overrules BRB common rule?

So id say that the Dread is scoring. Mighty pointless to include them in the rule otherwise.

It doesn't say that it makes them scoring (which would override the BRB) - it says it makes them scoring like troops. Troop vehicles don't score.

There is a choice of four effects that Grand Strategy can bestow, the other three work just fine.

It seems pretty clear to me that the scoring rule is worded that way to specifically disallow dreads from scoring whilst still allowing them to use the other three options.

of course it could go either way.


option 1: They will score like Troops. result=Dred not being scoring due to being a vehicle.

option 2: They will score, like troops. result=dred may hold objectives, exactly like if it was a scoring troop unit.