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Ahtman wrote: There is little similarity between The American Civil War and The War of Northern Aggression, and only one of those is taught in one specific geographic region.
And where would that be? I schooled in both Louisiana and Mississippi and have only ever heard it referred to as the "War of Northern Aggression" outside of academic areas.
Then again, I went to private schools.
I grew up in Louisiana as well and went to public school. Never heard it called the War of Northern Aggression outside of books or intellectual discussions.
You obviously need to spend more time in MS and Alabama. There aren't to many "South Will Rise Again!"ers in LA.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/11 21:48:28
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Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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WarOne wrote:America Revolutionary War
American War of independence
American Revolution
Revolutionary War
Each of those is extremely similar, are interchangeable, and used in all classrooms teaching the subject. There is little similarity between The American Civil War and The War of Northern Aggression, and only one of those is taught in one specific geographic region.
I agree that each term is interchangeable. However, there is a significant difference in the terms that use either Revolutionary War, and War of Independence. Assigning general reasons for war, Revolution and Indpendence carry signficantly different definitions. They both emphasis change in some form, but with cultural and political spin, either one could become a negative connotation in the society that uses either term.
WarOne wrote:
I agree that each term is interchangeable. However, there is a significant difference in the terms that use either Revolutionary War, and War of Independence. Assigning general reasons for war, Revolution and Indpendence carry signficantly different definitions. They both emphasis change in some form, but with cultural and political spin, either one could become a negative connotation in the society that uses either term.
The distinction does appear less important than the one between The War of Northern Aggression and American Civil War
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Manstein wrote:The article is silly because it attempts to saddle racism on the South.
*twitch*
Damnit, I was about to write a joke about this, but then I realized it'd violate this forum's PG13 policy.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
The south was facing an economic collapse before seeing as though they were an export economy, mainly exporting agricultural goods. However, a man by the name of Eli Whitney introduced the Cotton Gin to the south and caused an economic boom thanks to increased production of sorted cotton. This cotton was traded mostly to the English who had a large textiles industry. During the Civil War the English wanted the South to remain as intact as possible and favored the South during the war. They equipped the South with ships and weapons and it wasn't until the battle of Antietem that Abraham Lincoln declared the Emancipation Proclamation which made the war officially about slavery. Seeing as though the English were officially against slavery they stopped overt support of the South, which helped damn the southern war effort.
The South lost a great part of their workforce and land after the war which is why Lincoln wanted to help rebuild the South afterwards(see Reconstruction).
The South could've kept going and going economically as long as the British were buying and boy were they buying.
The south was facing an economic collapse before seeing as though they were an export economy, mainly exporting agricultural goods. However, a man by the name of Eli Whitney introduced the Cotton Gin to the south and caused an economic boom thanks to increased production of sorted cotton. This cotton was traded mostly to the English who had a large textiles industry. During the Civil War the English wanted the South to remain as intact as possible and favored the South during the war. They equipped the South with ships and weapons and it wasn't until the battle of Antietem that Abraham Lincoln declared the Emancipation Proclamation which made the war officially about slavery. Seeing as though the English were officially against slavery they stopped overt support of the South, which helped damn the southern war effort.
The South lost a great part of their workforce and land after the war which is why Lincoln wanted to help rebuild the South afterwards(see Reconstruction).
The South could've kept going and going economically as long as the British were buying and boy were they buying.
However by the time of secession Britain had built its textile industry in India and at home to the point where they could effectively cut the south off. Thats te primary reason they didn't support the south economically during the war, they didn't have to.
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MagickalMemories wrote:How about making another fist?
One can be, "Da Fist uv Mork" and the second can be, "Da Uvver Fist uv Mork."
Make a third, and it can be, "Da Uvver Uvver Fist uv Mork"
Eric
You can't have a textiles industry without supplies. The popular supplies being Cotton and Wool back then. The South offered the cheapest cotton thanks to the fact that they didn't have to pay the workers.
It's possible that the British wouldn't have switched exclusively to buying Egyptian cotton if there hadn't been a war on the other side of the pond. The war removed the South entirely from the cotton economy and forced everyone to go elsewhere.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/12 11:22:10
Many historians would argue that the British were on the verge of throwing total support to the Confederacy. By 1963 G.B. had already sent an army to Canada just in case and were simply waiting for a decisive Confederate victory before throwing their hats into the ring.
A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon
It seems a little bit unlikely that the British Empire would have supported the Confederacy without the quid pro quo of abolition since it was the Empire which abolished slavery in 1807 and the Royal Navy which attempted to prevent the slave trade.
What, you think that a country other than the U.S.A. can't be inherently self-contradictory in its foreign policy?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/05/12 13:13:11
Subject: Re:Five myths about why the South seceded
Melissia wrote:What, you think that a country other than the U.S.A. can't be inherently self-contradictory in its foreign policy?
You do understand not every bit of United States Foreign Policy is "inherently self-contradictory", right? There are more than 3 other nations in the world and there are a lot of things to take into account, sometimes leading to difficult issues.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
... uhm. What does that have to do with anything that I aid?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Either he misunderstood that you were making the same point as him, or he was confused by your use of "inherently". I think your sentence works a lot better without it.
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"Inherently" in this case meaning something like "in the nature of something though not readily apparent" (Priceton)-- even if you assume that our only desire in foreign policy is to propagate our own self-interest (hardly an uncommon belief outside of the US), even THAT in and of itself inherently contradictory because we as a nation have conflicting self-interests.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/12 13:53:24
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote:"Inherently" in this case meaning something like "in the nature of something though not readily apparent" (Priceton)-- even if you assume that our only desire in foreign policy is to propagate our own self-interest (hardly an uncommon belief outside of the US), even THAT in and of itself inherently contradictory because we as a nation have conflicting self-interests.
Edit: I agree that aspects of our foreign policy are contradictory, but that doesn't mean that US foreign policy is inherently contradictory.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/12 15:09:43
text removed by Moderation team.
2011/05/12 15:09:59
Subject: Re:Five myths about why the South seceded
Manstein wrote:Many historians would argue that the British were on the verge of throwing total support to the Confederacy. By 1963 G.B. had already sent an army to Canada just in case and were simply waiting for a decisive Confederate victory before throwing their hats into the ring.
No they wouldn't. Few would, actually.
England imported two things in bulk from the US before the war: cotton and grain. They could wait out a cotton shortage. They could not wait out a grain shortage.
I'd agree that if it looked like the south were going to straight up win, they would have strong armed a peace. But actually getting involved would have disrupted the relative world peace that, Crimea aside, had existed for fifty years.
2011/05/12 15:14:42
Subject: Re:Five myths about why the South seceded
Manstein wrote:Many historians would argue that the British were on the verge of throwing total support to the Confederacy. By 1963 G.B. had already sent an army to Canada just in case and were simply waiting for a decisive Confederate victory before throwing their hats into the ring.
Looks like the British were slow to get the news. That, or they expected a huge surge in "Southern Pride" after the Kennedy election.
I think one of the reasons there's so much argument about the role of slavery is that for most people, it's intertwined with racism.
the thing is, the racism of today is different than the racism of the past. We now know, through extensive scientific study, how little different there is between the races physiologically, psychologically, cognitively, or genetically.
In 1860, nearly every thinker agreed on white supremacy. So, the average slave owner wasn't really any more "racist" than the average northerner.
What seems hard to ignore is the economic and social role of slavery, and how hard the ruling class of the south would, as nearly any of us would, fight to preseve it.
Polonius wrote:I think one of the reasons there's so much argument about the role of slavery is that for most people, it's intertwined with racism.
Indeed. This view, however, discounts the fact that a number of southern freed blacks were also slave owners.
But that fact tends to get in the way of the agenda that the people who constantly bring up slavery actually have.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/12 15:34:51
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Well, techincially it was a number, but it was pretty small. There are records of free blacks owning slaves in the colonial period, and IIRC there were black or mixed race slaveowners in Louisiana. I think many of them actually bought their family members, though, to essentially free them.
And the South (much like the north) was racist, but it was less out of hatred of the other than out of economic need.
Melissia wrote:What, you think that a country other than the U.S.A. can't be inherently self-contradictory in its foreign policy?
No, I'm saying that it wasn't.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The reason Lincoln made the Proclamation of Emancipation after Gettysburg was that by its clear abolitionist stance it convinced the UK not to recognise the south.
All that stuff about the UK preparing to invade the north from Canada is BS.
So is the stuff about the UK selling weapons to the south. UK manufacturers sold weapons to both sides, as allowed by international law.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/12 15:52:23
FWIW, grew up in Tejas and went to private school and was taught that it was over state's rights. My teacher was ridiculously intelligent (he could give you any fact about anything relating to history) and was also a reenactor. I dunno if that adds anything. I just know that I wasn't there so people will believe what they want. I'm also glad it happened then so we're not any more overpopulated now.
Also, appropriate:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/12 16:38:04
My Dad always told me "Son, don't wrestle with a pig. You get dirty and the pig just enjoys it."
I will say that I find the author's attempt to equate hopeful slave owners to people that support the Bush tax cuts a bit telling, and where I suspect we will find his true mind set. It's all about class warfare.
Melissia wrote:What, you think that a country other than the U.S.A. can't be inherently self-contradictory in its foreign policy?
No, I'm saying that it wasn't.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The reason Lincoln made the Proclamation of Emancipation after Gettysburg was that by its clear abolitionist stance it convinced the UK not to recognise the south.
All that stuff about the UK preparing to invade the north from Canada is BS.
So is the stuff about the UK selling weapons to the south. UK manufacturers sold weapons to both sides, as allowed by international law.
If you think it is BS, take it up with renowned Civil War historian and Professor at Yale University, David Blight. Here is his short bio at Yale's website:
David W. Blight joined the department in January 2003 as professor of history. He is one of the nation's foremost authorities on the US Civil War and its legacy. As of June, 2004, he is Director, succeeding David Brion Davis, of the Gilder Lehrman Center for the Study of Slavery, Resistance, and Abolition at Yale. During the 2006-07 academic year he was a fellow at the Dorothy and Lewis B. Cullman Center for Writers and Scholars, New York Public Library.
Blight is the author of A Slave No More: Two Men Who Escaped to Freedom, Including Their Narratives of Emancipation, (Harcourt, 2007). This book combines two newly discovered slave narratives in a volume that recovers the lives of their authors, John Washington and Wallace Turnage, as well as provides an incisive history of the story of emancipation. In June, 2004, the New York Times ran a front page story about the discovery and significance of these two rare slave narratives. Blight is also the author of Race and Reunion: The Civil War in American Memory (Harvard University Press, 2001), which received eight book awards, including the Bancroft Prize, the Abraham Lincoln Prize, and the Frederick Douglass Prize as well as four awards from the Organization of American Historians, including the Merle Curti prizes for both intellectual and social history. Other published works include a book of essays, Beyond the Battlefield: Race, Memory, and the American Civil War (University of Massachusetts Press, 2002); and Frederick Douglass's Civil War: Keeping Faith in Jubilee (LSU Press, 1989). Blight is the editor of and author of six books, including When This Cruel War Is Over: The Civil War Letters of Charles Harvey Brewster (Univ. of Massachusetts Press, 1992); Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, An American Slave (Bedford Books, 1993); co-editor with Robert Gooding-Williams, W.E.B. Du Bois, The Souls of Black Folk (Bedford Books, 1997); co-editor with Brooks Simpson, Union and Emancipation: Essays on Politics and Race in the Civil War Era (Kent State Univ. Press, 1997); and Caleb Bingham, The Columbian Orator (orig. 1797, NYU Press, 1997), the book of oratory and antislavery writings that Frederick Douglass discovered while a youth. The edited volume, Passages to Freedom: The Underground Railroad in History and Memory, was published by Smithsonian Press in 2004 and is the companion book for the opening of the National Underground Railroad Freedom Center in Cincinnati.
Blight is also a frequent book reviewer for the Washington Post Book World, the Chicago Tribune, the Los Angeles Times, the Boston Globe and other newspapers, and has written many articles on abolitionism, American historical memory, and African American intellectual and cultural history. He is one of the authors of the bestselling American history textbook for the college level, A People and a Nation (Houghton Mifflin). He is also series advisor and editor for the Bedford Books series in American History and Culture, a popular series of teaching books for the college level. Blight lectures widely on Douglass, Du Bois, and problems in public history and American historical memory. He teaches summer institutes for secondary teachers and for park rangers and historians in the National Park Service, devoting a good deal of time to these and many other public history initiatives.
Blight has also been a consultant to several documentary films, including the 1998 PBS series, "Africans in America," and "The Reconstruction Era" (2004). Blight has a Ph. D. from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, and did his undergraduate degree at Michigan State University. He has also taught at Harvard University, at North Central College in Naperville, Illinois, and for seven years was a public high school teacher in his hometown, Flint, Michigan. He was also senior Fulbright Professor in American Studies at the University of Munich in Germany in 1992-93.
Blight was elected as a member of the Society of American Historians in 2002. Since 2004 he has served as a member of the Board of Trustees of the New York Historical Society and the board for African American Programs at Monticello in Charlottesville, Virginia. He also serves on the board of advisors to the Abraham Lincoln Bicentennial Commission and is involved in planning numerous conferences and events to commemorate both the Lincoln anniversary and the sesquicentennial of the Civil War. In his capacity as director of the Gilder Lehrman Center at Yale, Blight organizes conferences, working groups, lectures, the administering of the annual Frederick Douglass Book Prize, and many public outreach programs regarding the history of slavery and its abolition.
Professor Blight previously taught at Amherst College for 13 years. He earned his PhD from the University of Wisconsin- Madison and then taught at Harvard and at North Central College in Naperville, Illinois. Before his university career, he taught for seven years in a public high school in his hometown of Flint, Michigan. His courses include seminars in nineteenth-century U.S. history, African- American history, and historical memory.
As you can see, Professor Blight is most certainly not a Souther sympathizer, nor revisionist. If anything, he is as much on the other "side" of that spectrum as you can imagine. Professor Blight's lecture series, which you can watch on youtube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXXp1bHd6gI&feature=relmfu explain my position perfectly.
The whole series is 25 or so parts. If you really want a good history of the Civil War, not just a military one but also a social one, check out this guy's series. He explains the history behind the war, the things that took place during the war, and also the legacy after it. Some readers here might want to skip to the end and just watch his class on "the Lost Cause." All of them are good, and in the series (sorry but the exact clip escapes me) Dr. Blight makes statements that back up my own.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/12 17:20:39
A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon