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If you take the time to read A Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns and The Battle of the Fang then it's all quite clear.


As for the Wulfen response that's always been the case since the EoT campaign, they were just a bit (too?) subtle about it. You don't think the 13th company has been running around the EoT all this time with normal wolves do you ?

There was, a long time ago, a theory about Russ himself having "wolfed out", mainly based around some old fluff about his armour or part of it anyway, having been recovered from/inside a chaos temple.

Personally I lean more towards him being dead due to.. comments made.... but it's always handy to have him or indeed any of the missing Primarchs around as "get out of jail"/the cavalry arrives plot fixes.

What the denizens of the 41stM think and possibly even believe to be the truth is of course quite different from the actual truth of what happened or is known by those around 10,000 years before.

Mr. Abnett and Co. were quite clever here as the HUGE gap between the two settings pretty much allows anything ( more or less) to have happened in the meantime. Thus, for example, Ragnar and Co. can think or believe many things and, from a certain point of view anyway, they'll be true, even if they're not in the literal sense.

reds8n wrote: Mr. Abnett and Co. were quite clever here as the HUGE gap between the two settings pretty much allows anything ( more or less) to have happened in the meantime. Thus, for example, Ragnar and Co. can think or believe many things and, from a certain point of view anyway, they'll be true, even if they're not in the literal sense.

No, they're not being clever. If your theory is correct then they've retconned Russ's origin plain and simple.

The 'Raised by Wolves' aspect of Russ's background has been around since at least the first edition of Epic Space Marine, and possibly longer. GW even released figures back in the day for Russ with two of his "wolf brothers".

Indeed.

BUt the 40X canon has always been.... fluid.. at best. That's one of the appealing aspects of the setting.

Hell Leman Russ was once a human commander with an osmotic gill so it's not even the first time his background has changed.



Personally I think that being a myth is more ..well.. (one hesitates to use the term realistic seriously when discussing almost any setting of the 40K universe but there you go ) likely and much cooler than some weird pseudo viking roman mix.

Eumerin wrote:
No, they're not being clever. If your theory is correct then they've retconned Russ's origin plain and simple.

The 'Raised by Wolves' aspect of Russ's background has been around since at least the first edition of Epic Space Marine, and possibly longer. GW even released figures back in the day for Russ with two of his "wolf brothers".

And, again, if the original Fenrisian colonists were genetically modified, and could turn into wolflike beings, would these not be his "wolf brothers"? It's by no means established that the infant Leman Russ would be capable of distinguishing large, wolflike beings who happened to be genetically more like humans from actual Terran wolves.

I'm not stating that this is the case. I'm just pointing out that the "Raised by Wolves" aspect of Leman Russ's background doesn't prove OR disprove either theory. He could have been raised by creatures that all Fenrisians called "wolves", whether those were transplanted Terran Wolves, modified humans, or warp entities clothed in fur and flesh.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just for the record, here are the salient quotes from Thousand Sons:

'They were engineered?' asked Arhiman. 'By whom?'

'By the first colonists of Fenris,' said Magnus with a smile. 'Can't you see the dance of helices within them? The ballet of genes and the remarkable feats of splicing the first scientists achieved?" (p. 119)

This establishes that the wolf Arhiman views, whatsoever its origin, is an engineered creature.

"A mortal man, even a well-prepared one, would freeze to death on Fenris within minutes of setting foot on its surface." (p 119)

This, and the paragraphs that follow, establish that Fenris is NOT like Catachan, in simply being a very dangerous death world, but a world in which normal mortal men CAN not survive.

'Tell me what you know of the Canis Helix.'

'It's a genetic primer,' said Hathor Maat, 'a precursor gene that allows the remainder of the Space Wolf geneseed to take root in an aspirant's body.'

...'That is part of its function, yes, but it was never intended to be used so...obviously."

"...Back then, of course, geneticists saw impossibility as a challenge and daily wrought new codes within the chromosomes of human and animal genomes as the Mechanicum punch data wafers for servitors."

"So you're saying that these colonists brought gene-bred wolves with them to Fenris?"...

"Perhaps they did," allowed Magnus, 'but more likely they adapted, imperfectly at times, and without thought of the consequences. Or perhaps there were other, older races living on Fenris." (p120-121)

This establishes that the Canis Helix is in the body of the aspirant before any other Space Wolf geneseed is implanted. It also establishes that this was not the intended function of the Canis Helix. This also establishes that Magnus does not think it is likely that the colonists brought wolves to Fenris (and he can SEE the genetic code of the beast). It does not make clear what the scientists may have adapted, but the entire discussion is about how humans could live on Fenris.

'You look at those beasts and you see wolves, but is that only because it is what you expect to see?"...

'I can unravel the millennia of change back to the logos of its origins...The thing it is, what it wished to be, and all the stages of that evolutionary road.' (p121)

Again, Magnus seems to say that what seems to be a wolf is not a wolf. He can see what the 'wolf' wished to be.

'I told you, there are no wolves on Fenris.' (p122)

Again, Magnus seems to make clear that the wolf-like beasts on Fenris are not wolves.


Of course, all of this could be Magnus screwing with people.

However, it seems to hint very strongly that the Canis Helix was engineered into all Fenrisians so that they could live on Fenris. It seems to hint very strongly that it had unforseen consequences. I know they didn't call it the LUPUS Helix, but the name seems pretty obvious as to what kind of genetic material the Canis Helix is. The wolf-like beast is not a wolf, and it is a genetically altered creature.

So, if the thing that looks like a wolf is not a wolf, but is something else, genetically altered, what lived on Fenris that was genetically altered? Humans.

Also, if the Wolf Brothers were a 'second Founding' from the Space Wolves, but did not use Fenrisian genestock, that could explain why they didn't pan out.

I would suggest that you are, perhaps, reading a bit too much into the Canis Helix and taking some of that a bit too literally.

For example many, literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of normal mortal men have and do set foot on Fenris and do not die in minutes.

Also the first settlers would have been living in the safest part of Fenris...
Admittedly not that much safer but safe enough to live on without the fear of dying at any second.
I will accept the genetically modified wolves but genetically modified settlers seems a bit out of reach...

purplefood wrote:Also the first settlers would have been living in the safest part of Fenris...
Admittedly not that much safer but safe enough to live on without the fear of dying at any second.
I will accept the genetically modified wolves but genetically modified settlers seems a bit out of reach...

That's fine, but then you have to either dismiss certain writers or novels (and hopefully provide a reason). What reason do you have for dismissing Thousand Sons (or this part of Thousand Sons) as non-canonical? Does Graham McNeil have a track record of screwing up the fluff in his books? Is there another account of the colonization of Fenris and the presence of wolves there which this story contradicts?

Alternately, you have to assume that Magnus is deliberately lying to his own marines for some reason. What reason would that be?

I'm not saying that either is impossible. There is just some stuff from GW which must be discarded from 'canon', either because it contradicts other, better established "GW facts", or because it makes no sense. I'm also certainly not saying that Magnus should be accepted as a reliable, plain-speaking truthteller.

On the other hand, I don't see why genetically modified settlers seems out of reach. Is there some background of which I am unaware which makes it clear that the original Fenrisian settlers did not have any genetic modification? If you find genetically modified wolves more believable, can I ask why the colonists would have used genetic modification (and considerable time and expense) to import a predator onto their new, already dangerous world, but would not have used that science to make it easier for humans to survive there?

Da Butcha wrote:

purplefood wrote:Also the first settlers would have been living in the safest part of Fenris...
Admittedly not that much safer but safe enough to live on without the fear of dying at any second.
I will accept the genetically modified wolves but genetically modified settlers seems a bit out of reach...

That's fine, but then you have to either dismiss certain writers or novels (and hopefully provide a reason). What reason do you have for dismissing Thousand Sons (or this part of Thousand Sons) as non-canonical? Does Graham McNeil have a track record of screwing up the fluff in his books? Is there another account of the colonization of Fenris and the presence of wolves there which this story contradicts?

Alternately, you have to assume that Magnus is deliberately lying to his own marines for some reason. What reason would that be?

I'm not saying that either is impossible. There is just some stuff from GW which must be discarded from 'canon', either because it contradicts other, better established "GW facts", or because it makes no sense. I'm also certainly not saying that Magnus should be accepted as a reliable, plain-speaking truthteller.

On the other hand, I don't see why genetically modified settlers seems out of reach. Is there some background of which I am unaware which makes it clear that the original Fenrisian settlers did not have any genetic modification? If you find genetically modified wolves more believable, can I ask why the colonists would have used genetic modification (and considerable time and expense) to import a predator onto their new, already dangerous world, but would not have used that science to make it easier for humans to survive there?

I mean genetically modified to the point of turning into wolves.
The settlers may have been trying to make the new world similar to Earth/Terra which may be why they brought them.
The fluff that contradicts the Canis Helix being present in all Fenrisians is the fact that it is implanted into the recruits during their initiation.
I'm not dismissing it entirely, i disagree with certain parts. Mainly the part about the Wolves once being human.

"So you're saying that these colonists brought gene-bred wolves with them to Fenris?"...

"Perhaps they did," allowed Magnus, 'but more likely they adapted, imperfectly at times, and without thought of the consequences. Or perhaps there were other, older races living on Fenris." (p120-121)

This line here can be interpreted to allow for your theory, but it also suggests at least other plausible alternatives - including the idea that there was something else already there (which is basically the theory that I posted above, btw). In fact, there is at least one hint within the lore that there was pre-existing wildlife on the planet - though it's one that's extremely shrouded in myth. The Kraken's Egg (I think that's the name) is an unidentifiable piece of flesh mounted in the trophy hall of The Fang. It's claimed to come from a legendary giant Fenrisian monster known as The Kraken that Russ once fished up. But he supposedly threw it back and said that he'd come back for a rematch with it once it had grown larger. Imperium researchers believe that the trophy is from an ancient tyrannid biorganism that Russ somehow stumbled upon and fought with. Assuming that the story has some basis in fact, apparently one of the smaller hive swarms that showed up from time to time before Behemoth arrived dropped some organisms on Fenris but was unable to devour the planet (for reasons unknown). It should be noted that while extremely rare, this sort of thing is hardly unheard of and there are a number of systems (generally extremely dangerous death worlds, although that's usually due to the wildlife and not the environment itself, unlike on Fenris) that have been identified as the apparent victims of ancient tyrannid infestations that still exist to this day.

In short, there are lots of explanations for the wolves that fit with the novel.

They could be actual wolves brought from Earth that evolved to become the way that they are today.
They could be something that the colonists brought with them (you can argue over the details of the "something" as you wish) that was modified by the colonists to become what the wolves are today.
It could be something that was already on the planet when the colonists first arrived, and that may or may not have been subsequently modified by them.

It's likely that the Kraken's Egg was from a Tyranid vaguard organism that adapted and seperated from the Hive ind completly.

There are no wolves on fenris. Only space puppies.

There are a huge amount of wolves on the planet

As far as I know, Space Puppies can field fenrisian wolves in their army..(main rulebook from 2008. could be wrong)

Do we really need to raise this again?
I wouldn't call it threadroamncy but this topic has been discussed over and over...
Just let it die...

RIP