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alexwars1 wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

alexwars1 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:I have another idea...
Fire Warriors using Katanas in CC...

They'd still get their heads punched in.

Unless they were laser katanas, and struck at I10!

So Matt Ward is writing Tau, then?

Not until we're firing Crisis missiles out of the Crisis launchers attached to our Crisis suits.

Nerivant wrote:
Unless they were laser katanas, and struck at I10!

Are you suggesting Lightsabers?

That idea is already taken...

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
Unless they were laser katanas, and struck at I10!

Are you suggesting Lightsabers?

That idea is already taken...

Perish the thought!

I'm clearly suggesting a laser-based melee weapon shaped like a katana. Nothing like a lightsaber at all!

Fun fact: lightsabers have nothing to do with lasers.

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
Unless they were laser katanas, and struck at I10!

Are you suggesting Lightsabers?

That idea is already taken...

Yeah, but who cares! Lightsabers are awesome!

I've always liked the idea of a drill bayonet.

Grass4hopper wrote:I've always liked the idea of a drill bayonet.

I do too; I'm also partial to the hydraulic spike bayonet.

Nerivant wrote:

Grass4hopper wrote:I've always liked the idea of a drill bayonet.

I do too; I'm also partial to the hydraulic spike bayonet.

How do you get a drill bayonet out of it's target quickly! That's why bayonets are rarely serrated and have giant blood groves, so you can get them in and out quickly. A drill would really be a nightmare, especially if you hit something hard, it might torque the whole thing out of your hands. A chain bayonet is one thing, but a drill! I don't think that would work.

Now a good hydraulic spike with a wasp injection system! That would be deadly!

alexwars1 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:I have another idea...
Fire Warriors using Katanas in CC...

They'd still get their heads punched in.

Have you seen the cover for Cities of Death?
Well take a look and see what you think.
Pretty sure it is CoD anyway...

Andrew1975 wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Grass4hopper wrote:I've always liked the idea of a drill bayonet.

I do too; I'm also partial to the hydraulic spike bayonet.

How do you get a drill bayonet out of it's target quickly! That's why bayonets are rarely serrated and have giant blood groves, so you can get them in and out quickly. A drill would really be a nightmare, especially if you hit something hard, it might torque the whole thing out of your hands. A chain bayonet is one thing, but a drill! I don't think that would work.

Now a good hydraulic spike with a wasp injection system! That would be deadly!

Hit reverse?

Nerivant wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Grass4hopper wrote:I've always liked the idea of a drill bayonet.

I do too; I'm also partial to the hydraulic spike bayonet.

How do you get a drill bayonet out of it's target quickly! That's why bayonets are rarely serrated and have giant blood groves, so you can get them in and out quickly. A drill would really be a nightmare, especially if you hit something hard, it might torque the whole thing out of your hands. A chain bayonet is one thing, but a drill! I don't think that would work.

Now a good hydraulic spike with a wasp injection system! That would be deadly!

Hit reverse?

So in the heat of battle I have to hit forward stab, hope to not get the drill stuck,and torqued out of my hand, then hit reverse and wait for the drill to pull out. Not good if you have more than one guy coming at you! A good bayonet goes in and out in a flash! I've used a drill for many things before and it just is too slow for close combat.

Heck the only reason a chainsword works is because of sci-fi rule of cool and monomolecular edges.

Melissia wrote:Heck the only reason a chainsword works is because of sci-fi rule of cool and monomolecular edges.

Chainsword makes sense to me though if it's super sharp it would be better than just a plain sword. We assume technology has made them and their powers sources capable of being wielded properly. The problem with a drill is that drills are actually slower than a bayonet, they are not made to puncture quickly but to drill slowly. Take a power drill and try to punch through anything, then try it with a blade. See a drill bit tip isn't really sharp, the flute is sharp.

I've worked with a lot of power tools in my life, my hand held electric chainsaw is great for chopping stuff. The Drill is great for drilling through really hard stuff, if I need to punch through sheet metal I use a punch. I don't think a space marine is going to sit there for 5 minutes while you try to drill through his armor.

The big auger drill bits that the Big Daddy's use is guaranteed to bind on something!

Tau
Matt Ward
Angry Marines
Chainsword shooting bolters

This tread is complete.

Andrew1975 wrote
How do you get a drill bayonet out of it's target quickly! That's why bayonets are rarely serrated and have giant blood groves, so you can get them in and out quickly. A drill would really be a nightmare, especially if you hit something hard, it might torque the whole thing out of your hands. A chain bayonet is one thing, but a drill! I don't think that would work.

I hear what your saying, but 40K is Science Fantasy, not Science Fiction so it doesn't bother me when bothersome things like facts get in the way of the rule of cool . I've worked with both drills and chainsaws as well, both of which can get stuck.

If a bayonet of any kind got stuck I imagine that the marine would quickly use their foot/leg to boot/brace against the enemy to dislodge the bayonet.

Andrew1975 wrote

Melissia wrote:
Heck the only reason a chainsword works is because of sci-fi rule of cool and monomolecular edges.

Chainsword makes sense to me though if it's super sharp it would be better than just a plain sword. We assume technology has made them and their powers sources capable of being wielded properly. The problem with a drill is that drills are actually slower than a bayonet, they are not made to puncture quickly but to drill slowly. Take a power drill and try to punch through anything, then try it with a blade. See a drill bit tip isn't really sharp, the flute is sharp.

I've worked with a lot of power tools in my life, my hand held electric chainsaw is great for chopping stuff. The Drill is great for drilling through really hard stuff, if I need to punch through sheet metal I use a punch. I don't think a space marine is going to sit there for 5 minutes while you try to drill through his armor.

The big auger drill bits that the Big Daddy's use is guaranteed to bind on something!

If a chainsword can rip through armor almost instantly, why couldn't a weaponized drill quickly pierce armor.

Again, I understand your viewpoint, but so much of 40k doesn't hold up to most basic laws of physics.

A chainsword CAN'T rip through most armor easily. Just easier than a basic, unenhanced, non-power weapon would.

I stand corrected on that point , but I still think the rest of my argument stands up ok.

I hear what your saying, but 40K is Science Fantasy, not Science Fiction so it doesn't bother me when bothersome things like facts get in the way of the rule of cool

40K is a Science Fantasy I'll give you that, Nevertheless 40K is still a universe of fiction.

Therefore I deem it SFF "Science Fantasy Fiction"

Grass4hopper wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote
How do you get a drill bayonet out of it's target quickly! That's why bayonets are rarely serrated and have giant blood groves, so you can get them in and out quickly. A drill would really be a nightmare, especially if you hit something hard, it might torque the whole thing out of your hands. A chain bayonet is one thing, but a drill! I don't think that would work.

I hear what your saying, but 40K is Science Fantasy, not Science Fiction so it doesn't bother me when bothersome things like facts get in the way of the rule of cool . I've worked with both drills and chainsaws as well, both of which can get stuck.

If a bayonet of any kind got stuck I imagine that the marine would quickly use their foot/leg to boot/brace against the enemy to dislodge the bayonet.

Andrew1975 wrote

Melissia wrote:
Heck the only reason a chainsword works is because of sci-fi rule of cool and monomolecular edges.

Chainsword makes sense to me though if it's super sharp it would be better than just a plain sword. We assume technology has made them and their powers sources capable of being wielded properly. The problem with a drill is that drills are actually slower than a bayonet, they are not made to puncture quickly but to drill slowly. Take a power drill and try to punch through anything, then try it with a blade. See a drill bit tip isn't really sharp, the flute is sharp.

I've worked with a lot of power tools in my life, my hand held electric chainsaw is great for chopping stuff. The Drill is great for drilling through really hard stuff, if I need to punch through sheet metal I use a punch. I don't think a space marine is going to sit there for 5 minutes while you try to drill through his armor.

The big auger drill bits that the Big Daddy's use is guaranteed to bind on something!

If a chainsword can rip through armor almost instantly, why couldn't a weaponized drill quickly pierce armor.

Again, I understand your viewpoint, but so much of 40k doesn't hold up to most basic laws of physics.

I hear you what you are saying.

But if you can quickly punch the bit through what is the point of the drill then? The punch would be just as good, no? You would want a straight bit as a expanding, widening auger bit is just gonna cause problems as it continues to grab new material.

Nobody ever wants to get their bayonet bound in a rib cage in the fury of close combat. Drills get bound when they hit things, even powerful drills. When it gets bound on a powerful drill something is still going to spin, so either the casing spins out of your hands or the thing you stuck the bit in spins. Either way you have now lost your bayonet and your primary weapon.

Why a drill? I've never heard of someone stabbing anything with a drill, especially if they could use a better weapon. I mean drills are used to slowly drill through something, you are never gonna get that chance. You want a punch of some sort. A drill is used to slowly get through something you can't quickly punch though

Historically there are two kinds of bayonets, the knife which you stick, twist and pull, and the long triangle needles (because a triangle is hard to stitch together). These are almost always as straight as possible so as not to cause binding. The human ribcage is notorious for holding on to anything that is can grab onto. Any armor would do the same. You want a bayonet to be quick, in and out.

Chainswords really should cause massive hacking damage, but a they are too thick and the little teeth too small to swiftly cut through something the way a sword does. A blade just has to sever a thin bit, a chainsword has to physically remove a chunk of material as thick as its blade, it's not slicing through anything quickly. It's why you split wood with an axe not a chainsaw. I can see a chainsword really taking massive bites quickly, and if you have a chance then chunckily sawing through. I can cut a cord of wood faster with an axe than a chainsaw.

The drill just doesn't make sense to me. I'm imagining someone trying to get a space marine to stand still long enough to start a pilot hole.

Now a punch that automatically shoots a ball of compressed air into the soft tissue of a target blowing it up from the inside. That is awesome! Hence the wasp knife video.

I used to do underground directional boring to pay for college. So to me drilling always means slow steady progress.

Great. It seems Space Marines use combat knifes and stuff as bayonets. Sadly, I gave my new marines the swords on their backpack,just like grenades.

but a they are too thick

In the models sure. But chainsword are thin enough that they can get through the body in the lore.

Melissia wrote:

but a they are too thick

In the models sure. But chainsword are thin enough that they can get through the body in the lore.

..and the odd Necron..

Melissia wrote:

but a they are too thick

In the models sure. But chainsword are thin enough that they can get through the body in the lore.

True, but to do that a chainsword would have to be very very powerful to make a single cut and not get bound up in a mixture of meat, bone and armor. A chain sword does not slice like a normal sword or a power sword. It has to physically displace it's width in material while making the cut.

I'll refer again to cording wood. The axe will slice right through the small piece of wood easily with a good swing, but a chainsaw would take much more time as each individual tooth is very tiny, swinging the chainsaw is not effective except to take a quick bite, then you have to press home with it. That initial bite is going to do some massive carnage and turn whatever it touches into hamburger, but after that it is going to be grinding time. You certainly are not going to be effectively stabbing anyone with a chainsword, it's all hack and slash.

I know, I have a powerful corded electric chainsaw, and I have at times of pure stupidity tried to hack a small branch of a tree to see what happens when you swing it like a sword. The results were disappointing to say the least. It's just that you are trying to remove so much material at once instead of simply severing the two pieces. I'm also lucky I didn't hurt myself with it.

Chainswords look to be at least an inch or two in thickness and have multiple sets of teeth. That is alot of material to displace.

Well we all know the lore vs game mechanics vs physics rarely are equal. Most lore and fluff are artistic license. I mean in a space marine book they are gods, but in IG books a couple gaurdsmen can beat a marine in CC.

Andrew1975 wrote:

Melissia wrote:

but a they are too thick

In the models sure. But chainsword are thin enough that they can get through the body in the lore.

True, but to do that a chainsword would have to be very very powerful to make a single cut and not get bound up in a mixture of meat, bone and armor. A chain sword does not slice like a normal sword or a power sword. It has to physically displace it's width in material while making the cut.

I'll refer again to cording wood. The axe will slice right through the small piece of wood easily with a good swing, but a chainsaw would take much more time as each individual tooth is very tiny, swinging the chainsaw is not effective except to take a quick bite, then you have to press home with it. That initial bite is going to do some massive carnage and turn whatever it touches into hamburger, but after that it is going to be grinding time. You certainly are not going to be effectively stabbing anyone with a chainsword, it's all hack and slash.

I know, I have a powerful corded electric chainsaw, and I have at times of pure stupidity tried to hack a small branch of a tree to see what happens when you swing it like a sword. The results were disappointing to say the least. It's just that you are trying to remove so much material at once instead of simply severing the two pieces. I'm also lucky I didn't hurt myself with it.

Yes you are. This is why Chainswords and Axes are my least favourite thing about 40k, there is no way in hell you are going to make a chainsaw into a sword and not cut off vital parts of your own anatomy.
Also, how come they are just CCWs if they are so fantastic in CC? I know it would be unfair but they should be Rending or something (i am not proposing this in any way, but it seems that if they are so effective, how come the game mechanics dont show it?)

Chainswords look to be at least an inch or two in thickness and have multiple sets of teeth. That is alot of material to displace.

Well we all know the lore vs game mechanics vs physics rarely are equal. Most lore and fluff are artistic license. I mean in a space marine book they are gods, but in IG books a couple gaurdsmen can beat a marine in CC.

How big is the model? Thats right, tiny (in comparison to RL). So, on a model, how would you be able to make the teeth look small enough to be real? You cant im afraid.
Note, bold for emphasis only, not for tone.

Also, how come they are just CCWs if they are so fantastic in CC?

IIRC, they added +1 to strength back in the day.

Melissia wrote:

Also, how come they are just CCWs if they are so fantastic in CC?

IIRC, they added +1 to strength back in the day.

Huh, i didnt know that, thanks Melissia.

This is easily one of the most ridiculous/hilarious threads I've ever read.

Ever.

Relevant to our discussion.

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Also, how come they are just CCWs if they are so fantastic in CC?

IIRC, they added +1 to strength back in the day.

Huh, i didnt know that, thanks Melissia.

+1S kinda makes sense, as they WOULD do more raw biological damage than a regular sword.

Melissia wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Also, how come they are just CCWs if they are so fantastic in CC?

IIRC, they added +1 to strength back in the day.

Huh, i didnt know that, thanks Melissia.

+1S kinda makes sense, as they WOULD do more raw biological damage than a regular sword.

O god yeah, thats why a Chainsword always makes me think of Rending. But i suppose +1S would be a logical thought process too (makes a change from the usual 'logic' we see).

That man right there is a soldier's soldier. I'd be proud to have him in my platoon any day... just not at my back.

The monomolecular edges of a chainsword's teeth allow it to part matter on a molecular level (being, themselves, only one molecule wide), and though there are quite a number of teeth on a chainsword "blade", each tooth is actually fairly large, and looks more like a fang or talon than the teeth of a modern, real-life chainsaw. This gives it a cutting edge that is not only impossibly sharp, but uniform in cutting direction. Given this, it is not impossible for the chainsword to quickly carve a path through material wide enough for the blade and blade-housing to pass through but, also, driven by the super-human strength of a Space Marine, there is the force driving the blade forward that allows it to simply push weaker material (like flesh, flak, bone and sinew) out of the way, rather than waiting the millisecond it would take the chainsword to rend them apart.

Also, iirc, chainswords in the hands of SM, at least in Deathwatch, do have the Tearing quality, which allows them to roll an extra dice for damage, and choose the higher of the two results, in addition to its Penetration value, which ignores a set amount of the target's AP.