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I think the key points here are,

Before any blows are struck

and

4++ against wounds caused by close combat attacks

I think it is clear that cleansing flame is not a close combat attack, but a psychic attack which happens in the close combat phase. Just because the wounds count towards combat resolution, does not mean they were caused by close combat attacks. The wording of cleansing flame says it all.

Larotonda1984 wrote:I believe that the key words here are "All Purpose." All is definitive. not most or some but All. RAW here is RAI. If you dodge a wrench... you can dodge a dodge ball. Seriously bad example? why not? if you can dodge bolt pistols at close range, and dodge sword strikes, why couldn't you dodge a psychic fireball? Now don't get me wrong. I hope the FAQ comes out and states otherwise, but as it stands now I would have to concede the ivul save to my dark eldar playing scum.

Cleansing Flame is not a CC attack, it's a psychic power that takes place in the assault phase. Once there is an unsaved wound then it becomes a CC attack. In my opinion it seems to me that the intention with it specifically saying "counts as a CC attack for all purposes" is so that it counts towards combat resolution, giving them an extra edge. The wych save works against CC attacks only. They can't have an unsaved wound and then all of a sudden make a save for it. Retroactive saves don't exist. They can't go back in time and say "Huh, i shoulda dodged that." Once it's unsaved, once it wounds, once the model takes the wound, that is the point, and at that point only does it become a CC attack. This is what math dudes call order of operation.

i feel like the answer to this is the same as if the nemesis warding staff only works against wounds caused by close combat attacks....

just saying.

zeekill wrote:It does not happen in close combat, just in the assault phase, affecting all models in units that are base-to-base with the clensing flame unit.

Wyches do not get to dodge, but armor and FNP work normally.

This is basically exactly what I was going to write. If you have an inderpendent character in the unit with the power then the character and unit can use it sererately - hence 2x in one turn

blaktoof wrote:i feel like the answer to this is the same as if the nemesis warding staff only works against wounds caused by close combat attacks....

just saying.

Correct. The additional +1 to invul that swords give to termies also does not work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Acolyte wrote:

zeekill wrote:It does not happen in close combat, just in the assault phase, affecting all models in units that are base-to-base with the clensing flame unit.

Wyches do not get to dodge, but armor and FNP work normally.

This is basically exactly what I was going to write. If you have an inderpendent character in the unit with the power then the character and unit can use it sererately - hence 2x in one turn

Not that it really matters. But what IC has cleansing flame?

omerakk wrote:

Ok, ground is burning... Jump. works in mortal kombat... the DE are supposed to be lithe, wiry little bastards who dance around all quick and gak, it's a plausable answer.

Ok then, so why don't they get the invuln save to shooting as well? Why can't they dodge bullets? It works in Halo Reach; completely plausible answer.

The rule says that cleansing flame wounds only count as cc wounds for all intents and purposes when they are unsaved (after taking saves), prior to that, they are pys attacks that happen before cc. In this case, RAW does say they won't get the invuln.

I'm convinced now; I wanted them to get the saves, but it just doesn't look like they do

This power can be used during the Assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck.

That would mean they are in base contact right? Also it can only be used in the assault phase.

So your in base to base contact they can dodge all other attacks that happen in the assault phase while in base to base contact what would make this any different especially when it says for "all purposes". Before you attack me with its after unsaved wounds let me ask you this, what purposes is there other than for combat resolution? All is pretty inclusive.

Castellian Crowe in all his baddassery has clensing flame as well. :-) he's also the tool who lets you spam purifyers. :-)

Aglobalthreat wrote:
This power can be used during the Assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck.

That would mean they are in base contact right? Also it can only be used in the assault phase.

So your in base to base contact they can dodge all other attacks that happen in the assault phase while in base to base contact what would make this any different especially when it says for "all purposes". Before you attack me with its after unsaved wounds let me ask you this, what purposes is there other than for combat resolution? All is pretty inclusive.

Just because they are in base contact, doesn't mean they've struck each other yet, and it's not an actually close combat attack, or a power that aids a close combat attack, such as hammerhand or a Libby giving INT 10. No blows are actually struck in CC yet, so no CC type saves should be allowed to be taken, not only that, on top of the fact that the wording doesn't allow you to retroactively take a save. Basically there's 2 reasons why they wouldn't get a save then pretty much, 1 it's a Psychic attack that just counts for combat resolution, and 2, the wounds only become close combat attacks after they're unsaved, or become actual wounds. So, not being able to use the CC save because of the fact it's not a CC attack until after the armor save is made and passed/failed.

So, for all purposes basically means for all combat resolution purposes, it's just worded horribly, and thats why faqs are needed for every codex.

I think the "all" in this case is pretty much all encompassing. It happens during the assault phase in base to base contact in close combat. The wych save specifically states "caused by close combat attacks."
The intention here is intended to give them an advantage for combat resolution, which is completely reasonable - but it has been skewed to give an advantage clearly not intended.

Its an attack that happens in close combat, but at the same time is apparently not a "close combat attack." RAW is RAI.

It happens in the close combat phase, not in close combat.
It is a psychic attack. Hence it does not give the wyches a save.

zeekill wrote:It does not happen in close combat, just in the assault phase, affecting all models in units that are base-to-base with the clensing flame unit.

Wyches do not get to dodge, but armor and FNP work normally.

I'm pretty sure CF affects all models in the same assault as the Purifier unit, not just those units in B2B. So if there's a big multi-assualt it'll hit every unit not just those the purifiers are engaged with.

This is devolving into a clash of imaginations at this point. fireballs, burning ground, mortal kombat, matrix, cirque de soleil...

Guys think of this simply,

You can't dodge a power that burns you up from within.

One important line everyone is missing is "Armor saves can be taken as normal. "

It only says armour no invl

Are you really trying to contend that you cannot take invulnerable saves against this power?

calypso2ts wrote:Are you really trying to contend that you cannot take invulnerable saves against this power?

It doesn't say you can, but if everyone agrees on that they can, i am not gonna argue or complain.

I just reading what I see.

Also "This power can be used during the assault phase" This is assaulting no CC yet. So it does not count as CC

You do not need to say you can take an invulnerable save, you can always take an invulnerable save against wounds unless otherwise stated.

calypso2ts wrote:You do not need to say you can take an invulnerable save, you can always take an invulnerable save against wounds unless otherwise stated.

Gotcha thanks for pointing that out.

Idk.The more I look at it, the more I can see this going either way really.

The only real way to play it until the faq would be to allow them the invulnerable save. "All intents and purposes" is pretty inclusive, despite the rest of the wording. All, Never etc, tend to trump most debates.

Guys think of this simply,

You can't dodge a power that burns you up from within.

Don't try to use fluff to define rules. People shouldn't be able to live through lascannon shots to the face, weapons that can pierce the strongest armors in the universe, but if they are called eternal warriors... they shrug it off like nothing.

Besides, the flames don't burst from within the unit targeted anyway; they are azure flames made manifest by the will of the purifiers that go forth and consume everything in a giant confligration that burns the soul, not the body, if hit.

omerakk wrote:Idk.The more I look at it, the more I can see this going either way really.

The only real way to play it until the faq would be to allow them the invulnerable save. "All intents and purposes" is pretty inclusive, despite the rest of the wording. All, Never etc, tend to trump most debates.

"All intents and purposes" only applies after the wound is caused. It doesn't count until after you've failed your save, and at that point it's too late to have taken a dodge save.

Why is this up for debate?

The rules of the power specifically state that it only counts as close combat wounds for unsaved wounds. Therefor prior to rolling your save it is NOT yet a close combat wound. Nowhere does it state that the 4+ to wound is a close combat attack.

Why would you get an inv save that only works for close combat attacks when it clearly states it is only a close combat wound after it is unsaved.

veidin wrote:Why is this up for debate?

The rules of the power specifically state that it only counts as close combat wounds for unsaved wounds. Therefor prior to rolling your save it is NOT yet a close combat wound. Nowhere does it state that the 4+ to wound is a close combat attack.

Why would you get an inv save that only works for close combat attacks when it clearly states it is only a close combat wound after it is unsaved.

I believe it needs to be clarified due to the fact that it is the first attack that changes stuff around, what other attack in the game goes from psychic to close combat. The for all purposes seems like it can cover a lot and it supposedly happens in a new phase that occurs before close combat but not really...

Lastly if it is drawing this much attention conflicted responses I think it needs to be clarified in a FAQ.

Aglobalthreat wrote:

veidin wrote:Why is this up for debate?

The rules of the power specifically state that it only counts as close combat wounds for unsaved wounds. Therefor prior to rolling your save it is NOT yet a close combat wound. Nowhere does it state that the 4+ to wound is a close combat attack.

Why would you get an inv save that only works for close combat attacks when it clearly states it is only a close combat wound after it is unsaved.

I believe it needs to be clarified due to the fact that it is the first attack that changes stuff around, what other attack in the game goes from psychic to close combat. The for all purposes seems like it can cover a lot and it supposedly happens in a new phase that occurs before close combat but not really...

Lastly if it is drawing this much attention conflicted responses I think it needs to be clarified in a FAQ.

What needs clarification?

Break the psychic power down. After assault moves but before blows are done the test is made. If successful alll enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer a wound on a 4+ armor saves may be taken as normal.

Cool, so this ability is used during the assault phase before anything else aside from the movements are resolved. Easy enough to follow. Also at this point nowhere has it mentioned that this is a close combat attack. It is merely a psychic power that allows you to use your armor save against the wounds. There should be no discrepency here as that is pure RAW. Next part

Unsaved wounds caused by CF are counted as being caused in close combat for all purposes

After the armor test is failed NOW it becomes an unsaved wound and follows the RAW of being a close combat wound. As you have already made your save (armor) you may not make another save being the close combat inv save and therefor take the wound. Where is the confliction? There is nothing being changed around just follow the psychic power's rules. It isnt a close combat wound until you fail a save therefor why would a close combat inv save apply?

Well I'll be waiting for a FAQ as that does not convince me

I agree that it can be confusing but here's the logic as I see it:

1. Certain models get wounded by the Psychic power (not an attack)
2. Those models must make any saves they can normally make against a psychic power. Aka, armor, a regular invul (not a cc only invul, as it is not a close combat attack, but a psychic power)
3. Those models that fail their saves suffer an unsaved wound as per the BRB
4. As per the psychic power's rules, the unsaved wounds now count as close combat wounds. They do not count as close combat wounds before this point.

4. As per the psychic power's rules, the unsaved wounds now count as close combat wounds. They do not count as close combat wounds before this point.

A lot of people keep bringing this up so I'm not trying to single anyone out. As per the rulebook pg. 39 "models do not get cover saves for wounds suffered in close combat", so if they don't count as CC wounds until after you take saves, does that mean you can take cover saves against it (if you're standing in area terrain for example)?

One can't take a save against an unsaved wound, "If the dice result is equal to or higher than the model’s Sv value, the wound is stopped. If the result is lower than the Sv value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and the model suffers a wound" Pg 20

Right there unsaved wound=after saves.

The way I read it was it wasn't caused by a close combat attack, but rather a psychic power.

Where it says the attacks will be counted as caused in close combat is meant for combat resolution.

Anyone have any thoughts on the cover save issue?

Seems to me like:

If the wounds are caused in CC, then wyches should get their 4++ save.
or
If the wounds are not caused in CC, you should be able to take cover saves against it. Since it's not until after you take saves that the wounds count as being caused in CC.

Sucks for wyches, but good news for every other low armor save model in the game.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on the cover save issue?

Seems to me like:

If the wounds are caused in CC, then wyches should get their 4++ save.
or
If the wounds are not caused in CC, you should be able to take cover saves against it. Since it's not until after you take saves that the wounds count as being caused in CC.

Sucks for wyches, but good news for every other low armor save model in the game.

Wyches dont get a 4++ save in close combat, they get a 4++ against close combat attacks. Big difference there in wording. Cleansing Flame is not a close combat attack until AFTER the wound has been unsaved so no CC inv saves.

Also cover saves are utilized against shooting attacks. Cleansing Flame is not labeled or notated as a psychic shooting attack so no cover saves.

That leaves us with plain old armor or all encompassing inv saves that can be used to stop it. Also FNP if you have it can be used since there's no str or AP associated with the attack.

veidin wrote:

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:Also cover saves are utilized against shooting attacks. Cleansing Flame is not labeled or notated as a psychic shooting attack so no cover saves.

So we don't get to make cover saves against non-shooting wounds? So no cover saves against vehicles exploding, or movement phase attacks (Big Bombs, Void mines, etc.), or Doom of Malantai's spirit leech, or Mawlocs.

I think it's been pretty well established that you can take a cover save against just about any kind of wound unless there's something that specifically says you cannot.

Pg. 39 in the rulebook says "models do not get cover saves for wounds suffered in close combat". However everyone is arguing that CF wounds don't count as being caused in CC until after saves, meaning that before you roll saves they are NOT counted as being caused in CC and would allow cover saves.