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@ Olympia

What are you smoking? You can look down and ask any questions you want to your opponent during any of your phases. Asking as such is a great way to prevent further conflict in the coming phase or turn, but is also voluntary. If you want to be a dink and a bad sports, or if you just don't feel like it, then you don't have to talk to your opponent...

The reason why you officially verify LOS in the shooting phase is to confirm that all your "planned" shots can be made. Again, at that point, you can look down along the eyes or gun barrels to confirm LOS, and then make your determination of your target. Whenever you declare your target is when the final LOS and verifications are made. If your intended target gets killed before you fire, then you look for a secondary, so on and so forth.

Why are you so adamant that is it cheating to look along your models eye or barrel at a different time than the confirmation portion of the shooting phase?

And here comes the shooting phase:
"I tried to move my tank so that it would be 50% obscured"
"Oh, let's check it now... look, only 35% obscured! Looks like you're out of luck"

It just speeds things up. "Ok, I want to move my tank so that it's obscured - if I move it here, are you going to call it obscured or do I have to park it over here behind this other hill?"
"That doesn't look like enough cover - better go with the hill"

Neither is more legal than the other - it's just agreeing with your opponent ahead of time to avoid arguments and speed things up. It's not "clearly illegal" - and if you don't like it, just tell your opponent the first time he does it.
"I'm not really sure if that terrain is going to be enough to obscure your tank - I usually check that kind of thing during the shooting phase, after movement has already been decided. That way I'm not helping you beat me! haha"

Compare this to otherwise being a jerk about it.

Xarian wrote: it's just agreeing with your opponent ahead of time to avoid arguments

Isn't this actually listed as the most important rule in the rulebook?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Xarian wrote: it's just agreeing with your opponent ahead of time to avoid arguments

Isn't this actually listed as the most important rule in the rulebook?

Excellent point, very appropriate for this conversation.

I see what Olympia is getting at. He doesn't want his opponent to help him win; he's asking that you win on your own judgement as to distance and coverage. However, he's turning a question of etiquette (to which to may say yes or no) to a question of hard rules (to which to you MUST say no too, or are otherwise cheating).

calypso2ts wrote:The discussion was for cover saves, and I do not think it is unreasonable to ask an opponents opinion on cover before shooting begins (so during the movement phase).

I do this quite often when terrain is in the way - Can we agree the whole unit is in range to shoot even though I cannot place all the models? or Are you okay assuming I am 1" from you and I will just move this model 'pretty close' so we can move on?

^^This

Sorry, Olympia I'm with the other side here. The point of asking during the movement phase is to steamline gameplay. There a lot of situations involving terrain or intervening models or whatnot where you are pretty sure that you can get LOS (or hide from LOS). But rather than spending 5 minute nudging your models until it is perfect and looking from the model's view. It is often much easier to simply ask the opponent "okay, this is what I plan to do, can we agree this works?" I've done it in tournaments and my opponents have done it.

I mean you look at LOS as you move anyway, that's the whole point of the movement phase, to set up LOS for units. Why not confirm that it is right rather than haggling about it later when a unit clearly has enough movement to achieve what you were going for.

I agree with Xarion. In tournaments where the rounds are timed working together to come to a common agreement that both players agree "This is the case" can speed things up without the need to possibly shorten the game and deny things. When both players agree to this it does speed up play and avoid disagreements before any dice are picked up.

On the other side of the coin, if that doesnt sit well with you just politly inform them that you prefer not to do it that way and they they should perform their moves to their satisfaction and determine line of sight officially in the shooting phase.

olympia wrote:
Actually it is cheating. This truly is pernicious rules abuse because the person breaking the rules to get the advantage does so in the name of "speeding up gameplay" and "consultation."

I am sorry is it cheating or is it a rules abuse? Diversified Nobs is a rules abuse, moving vehicles sideways and pivoting is a rules abuse. Moving your infantry 7" is cheating.

I offer the same consideration to my opponent, and since there is a gray area in cover debates, it is in the spirit and boundaries of the rules to ask them to clarify their position on cover.

I think people are getting the wrong idea ...

Yes it is OK to look at your unit a tweak it so it will get a good shoot.

No it is not OK to actually check that it is a good shot (by actually checking LOS).

A fine line maybe but its easy to see its being crossed when you're asked 'do they have a shot? how about now'. Its much the same as pre-measuring shooting.

I've never thought or played it this way, but Olympia is absolutely correct. There is nothing AFAIK that allows you to check LOS until the shooting phase. Since this is a permissive ruleset, you can't do anything without permission making it illegal to check LOS until the shooting phase.

This, however, is impractical as simply moving it will give you incidental information with regards to LOS. However, actually checking LOS would be illegal. This has interesting results when actually applied to the table top.

I disagree.. you can check LoS at any time

Phototoxin wrote:I disagree.. you can check LoS at any time

You can check LOS, but what cannot do is badger your opponent--"if I shoot from here are you going to claim a cover save? What about from here...or here?"

No, you CAN ask that. There is nothing in this game that governs the conversations you have with your opponent and their content. You keep saying it Olympia as it is true, but have yet to give ANY RULES backing.

You can, politely, refuse to answer the question.


You can also check LOS yourself at any time; you do this simply by looking at your models. While your opponent does not have to verify your decisions, NOTHING requires you to maintain a fully 2D view of the battlefield. Nothing.

Remember folks, 40k is a permissive rule set, and no rule in the book gives you permission to breath, or look at your models during the game except as detailed in the shooting phase.

"How can you possibly play the game without breathing?!?" and "How can I play without looking at my models?" are just liberal RAI nonsense.

olympia wrote: but what cannot do is badger your opponent--

Well, the most important rule says you can't badger your opponent for any reason. But you're welcome to ask and come to an agreement.

solkan wrote:Remember folks, 40k is a permissive rule set, and no rule in the book gives you permission to breath, or look at your models during the game except as detailed in the shooting phase.

"How can you possibly play the game without breathing?!?" and "How can I play without looking at my models?" are just liberal RAI nonsense.

That is just a dumb statment, breathing has nothing to do with the game.

Now if you compared it the premeasuring you would be on the right track.

I don't see anything illegal with this, as long as you both agree to it before the game starts, there's nothing to complain about.

If the other person doesn't want to allow this, it may slow the game down, but now he can't yell at you for "cheating"

If a unit had plenty of inches left for its movement, I would have no problem wit it. On the other hand, if I tell someone "no, you have no shot from that direction no matter how far you move" and then said person tries to move somewhere else instead of his original direction... obviously, this wouldn't be allowed

Tri wrote:I think people are getting the wrong idea ...

Yes it is OK to look at your unit a tweak it so it will get a good shoot.

No it is not OK to actually check that it is a good shot (by actually checking LOS).

A fine line maybe but its easy to see its being crossed when you're asked 'do they have a shot? how about now'. Its much the same as pre-measuring shooting.

So by this logic short people will not be able to play the game as they would be breaking the rules with their height and I can't move any modles that would need me to reach and bend at the waste, as this would result in a situation where I could be checking LoS...

ChrisCP wrote:

Tri wrote:I think people are getting the wrong idea ...

Yes it is OK to look at your unit a tweak it so it will get a good shoot.

No it is not OK to actually check that it is a good shot (by actually checking LOS).

A fine line maybe but its easy to see its being crossed when you're asked 'do they have a shot? how about now'. Its much the same as pre-measuring shooting.

So by this logic short people will not be able to play the game as they would be breaking the rules with their height and I can't move any modles that would need me to reach and bend at the waste, as this would result in a situation where I could be checking LoS...

Though he obviously gets a better judgement when placing, its only an issue when he starts asking or going round the board to check.

LOS checking is the first thing you do in the shooting phase, if you are checking it then you must have ended your movement phase and the unit must be looking to shoot. You are not meant to check, only estimate... same with ranges, you can of course estimate them while moving but you cannot go out of your way to actually check them.

That conclusion (you're now shooting) does not follow.

Nothing disallows you from looking at your models. I can do so in any way I wish, and if I gain TLOS knowledge then that is just tough. Same as when measuring a move I can end up gaining additional information.

nosferatu1001 wrote:That conclusion (you're now shooting) does not follow.

Nothing disallows you from looking at your models. I can do so in any way I wish, and if I gain TLOS knowledge then that is just tough. Same as when measuring a move I can end up gaining additional information.

Nos, but what about stating to your opponent in your movement phase, "I have moved far enough to deny you a cover save...haven't I? No? O.k, what about now? Now" and then moving a little bit more and asking again until you get the answer you want and perhaps keeping your vehicle from having to move that little bit extra which would bring it into terrain and force a DT test.

Did you miss the other posts on this?

You are perfectly, 100% allowed to talk to your opponent about anything you like. There is *nothing* that is "illegal" about that. NOthing. As I said before - your claim it is illegal means you MUST have a rule to cite, yet you have not done so. Obviously - you cannot do so, as the BRB does not attempt to proscribe the conversations you can have with your opponent.

So we are down to: this game is a social game. If you do not wish to ANSWER such questions, then *politely* state so. However, I can g'tee you that some moves will now take much longer to complete as I WILL go round and confirm the exact LOS to and from every model, as I am perfectly entitled to do, and if this takes too long - tough.

Or, you could treat this game as a social exercise, and answer. In a tournament this is actually a great idea, as not only does it save on time, but it massively saves on the potential for arguments and bad feeling later on. And, form experience, your "example" above rarely, if ever, happens - it is normally ONE time you need to ask, and thats it. You do yourself no favour by exaggerating for effect.

nosferatu1001 wrote:That conclusion (you're now shooting) does not follow.

Nothing disallows you from looking at your models. I can do so in any way I wish, and if I gain TLOS knowledge then that is just tough. Same as when measuring a move I can end up gaining additional information.

when other then the shooting phase do you check? ... sure you can 'in ... your ...head' judge if you get a cover save (easy enough to do this with ranges as well). What you cannot do is any actual checking like asking your opponent, using a laser marker, ect.

Nos seems to be suggesting that resolving cover saves and conducting movement occurs in the same "phase" as it were. Nos has reached the banal conclusion that anything is possible in the game if you and your opponent agree to it. That's not a useful contribution.

Sigh. Good to see you putting words in my mouth there. You also have no counter to the points I made, obviously. Just an attempt at hand waving them away. Useful contribution you have made in these last posts.

No, I have not "resolved" cover saves in the movement phase. Please explain how that sentence even makes any sense. Resolving a cover save would involve rolling them...unless you didnt mean resolve?

No, I have not reached the "banal" conclusion that TMIR is useful, as that is in breach of the tenets of YMDC (as you currently are as well, btw).

Please provide, for the 3rd time of asking, ANY RULES backing up your "it is illegal to ask questions" statement from earlier, or admit you have absolutely no rules backing for any position you have reached so far. Please note the tenets of YMDC which require you to back up your position with rules.

To summarise: I can gain TLOS information during the movement phase. That is not against the rules. I can ask my opponent questions. That is not against the rules.

Your position has no rules basis.

The comparison to measuring lacks though, as measuring is explicitly forbidden, while checking LoS is not.

There actually isn't 100% rule stopping you from measuring ether. "players are not allowed to measure any distance except the rules call for it" would be fine but it actually starts "In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except the rules call for it" ... so specifically there are times when you can measure without rules.


As i said in my first post it is tantamount to cheating ... it breaks no rules but it is also backed by no rules ... normally you must be asked to do something before you can do it.

It also posses the question what happens when ...
" do i have LOS" A
B "Yes"
..later in the shooting phase ...
"I'm shooting that unit" A
B "...mmm no don't have LOS"
"But you said they did!" A
B "I was wrong"
... again nothing wrong here nothing says that you have to answer correctly ether ...

This all comes down to whom I'm playing against. There are numerous areas in a game that aren't really covered in the rules that requires some agreement between two players; a social contract of sorts. If I'm playing a guy who wants an inch, but takes a mile in every rules issue case, then I'm likely to decline the request.

The key is to be able to determine what your opponent's intentions are. Play in enough tourney type settings and you will be able to figure it out and then determine if you would answer your oppponent's question as originally posted in this thread.

Tri wrote:
Though he obviously gets a better judgement when placing, its only an issue when he starts asking or going round the board to check.

I am absolutely allowed to go around to the other side of the table during the movement phase, even for the ostensible purpose of checking your models position for LoS purposes.

Tri wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

Tri wrote:I think people are getting the wrong idea ...

Yes it is OK to look at your unit a tweak it so it will get a good shoot.

No it is not OK to actually check that it is a good shot (by actually checking LOS).

A fine line maybe but its easy to see its being crossed when you're asked 'do they have a shot? how about now'. Its much the same as pre-measuring shooting.

So by this logic short people will not be able to play the game as they would be breaking the rules with their height and I can't move any models that would need me to reach and bend at the waste, as this would result in a situation where I could be checking LoS...

Though he obviously gets a better judgement when placing, its only an issue when he starts asking or going round the board to check.

LOS checking is the first thing you do in the shooting phase, if you are checking it then you must have ended your movement phase and the unit must be looking to shoot. You are not meant to check, only estimate... same with ranges, you can of course estimate them while moving but you cannot go out of your way to actually check them.

I assume your not saying one isn't allowed to walk around the board? Right?

So, if I'm not allowed to look where I'm moving my models. How do I decide where to move? How do I play a game where I am unable to determine if moving into a position might pose a risk to my forces?

If one wishes to ask one's opponent if a move grants LoS the opponent simply may say "I don't know" or even "I'll tell you after you've finished that move." - Which is still helping one's opponent.
What players may or may not wish to discuss whilst playing isn't the point here. The point is one's allowed to look at the battel field in an fashion one wants and that "Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit. You may not go back and change the move already made by a previous unit." Pg 11
We know when a unit has finished moving, in chess what does one think of the opponent that asks, holding his knight on the square he might be moving to, "Well, that looks like check in three right?" Waiting for your response, just to judge your reaction, if to change the move.

That's fine ChrisCP, a person can walk around the table, laser point, eye-ball, or whatever the feth they want in the movement phase. A person can ask all sorts of questions. However, the insidious behavior I describe in the OP is making declarative statements about the shooting status of a unit in the movement phase (e.g., "I moved my leman russ here and it has an unobstructed view of your looted wagon") and thereby forcing your opponent to object at that time or face the consequences in the shooting phase. So it's not even a case of ignoring or refusing to answer questions.