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iproxtaco wrote:Grey Knights clearly didn't fail, as they weren't involved in the event AT ALL. To lose, you have to fight first, or decide not to fight. Do you know of any battles where they have lost? Yeah, thought so.

You can still achieve an objective but get your ass handed to you. There are rarely cut-and-dried victories and losses, so if you consider 99% losses but killing a single Daemon a victory then congratulations...

Using an exterminatus on a planet isn't winning, it's reducing loses. There have been many occasion when the GK haven't been able to stop a daemonic incursion, destroying the planet isn't winning. The objective isn't the to stop the daemons it's to save the planet, blowing it up from orbit isn't winning.

Achieving objectives is only half the battle, the other half is killing the enemy and not dying yourself. Preventing an incursion isn't soo good if you lose 900 GK doing it.

Hazard30 wrote:I would assume they would not do as well. Because(due to my understanding) one of the main weapons against demons is there psychic mumbo jumbo. If they were so good against other races, I would be pretty sure that the tyranid invasion wouldn't be as "OMG we are getting eaten". Single combat im sure they can pwn anyone, but against army like the nids or necrons they would be pretty hard pressed to win

That psykic stuff is duo to them having the emperors heritage imprinted in their geneseed, which is unique to the gk. yes, all you fluff nuts are going to go into nerdrage mode over that but its true. read the codex.
As for them beating back a tyranid invasion: hardly. their a small elite force. they cant be everywhere at once, and unless they have the godlike ability to clone themselves instantly and scamper off their going to have trouble against endless hordes of opponents. as for them going onto a hive ship and carving out the brain i could see that happen, but not easily.

and as usual im about to throw up when i hear the : their oh-so-perfect and have never ever ever lost a battle... come on.

tarnish wrote:

Hazard30 wrote:I would assume they would not do as well. Because(due to my understanding) one of the main weapons against demons is there psychic mumbo jumbo. If they were so good against other races, I would be pretty sure that the tyranid invasion wouldn't be as "OMG we are getting eaten". Single combat im sure they can pwn anyone, but against army like the nids or necrons they would be pretty hard pressed to win

That psykic stuff is duo to them having the emperors heritage imprinted in their geneseed, which is unique to the gk. yes, all you fluff nuts are going to go into nerdrage mode over that but its true. read the codex.
As for them beating back a tyranid invasion: hardly. their a small elite force. they cant be everywhere at once, and unless they have the godlike ability to clone themselves instantly and scamper off their going to have trouble against endless hordes of opponents. as for them going onto a hive ship and carving out the brain i could see that happen, but not easily.

and as usual im about to throw up when i hear the : their oh-so-perfect and have never ever ever lost a battle... come on.

There is already a guy doing that...

Grey Knights try to stop Daemons, no matter the cost, no matter the methods. If in the end, 500 Grey Knights die but the Daemons are stopped, victory. If the entire system has to be destroyed, billions dead, but the Daemons are stopped, victory. So yeah, if they win in the end, it's still a win. It doesn't negate the losses the Grey Knights may face, or the battles lost, you people think it doesn't and I agree. But the Grey Knights DO look at the overall conflict. They have so far, not failed to ultimately stop a Daemonic incursion, or the result is inconclusive, as is the case with Alaric. They do not give up just because they lose their initial forces. After Alaric is gone, they WILL send more forces. If they are beaten back, then they WILL Exterminatus the planet, thus victory is assured.

iproxtaco wrote:Grey Knights try to stop Daemons, no matter the cost, no matter the methods. If in the end, 500 Grey Knights die and the Daemons are stopped, victory. If the entire system has to be destroyed, billions dead, and the Daemons are stopped, victory. So yeah, if the win in the end, it's still a win. It doesn't negate the losses the Grey Knights may face, or the battles lost, you people think it doesn't and I agree. But the Grey Knights DO look at the overall conflict. They have so far, not failed to ultimately stop a Daemonic incursion, or the result in inconclusive, as is the case with Alaric. They do not give up just because they lose their initial forces.

They still lose battles.
They can look at what happens ultimately for as long as they want but the fact remains, they do lose battles.
They might win or at least keep the balance over all but they still lose sometimes.

If in the end, 500 Grey Knights die and the Daemons are stopped, victory

To lose half of the Grey Knights against a single daemonic incursion would be a catastrophic failure, no matter the outcome. You seem to forget that Daemon numbers are, for all intents and purposes, infinite; were a larger incurison to occur directly afterwards, the Grey Knights would be overwhelmed.

F**k me it's impossible to argue with some people. Grey Knights don't look at individual battles, they look at the War as a whole, so maybe they do lose some individual battles, they don't care. They care about the bigger picture, and so far, they have not lost a 'war'.

No, it is impossible to argue with someone who cannot see reason (i.e. You). Resorting to cussing because an argument isn't going your way is the sign of someone losing ground.

Still a victory. The Grey Knights are perfectly willing to die if that means they achieve victory, which they so afar always have. It's an unrealistic example. It's unlikely that they would allow losses to get as high as 500, exterminatus would be carried out before that. I beleive that 200 hundred was the largest number they've lost in a single incursion, but it depends on the size. In that case it was against Angron. They won by the way.

Just had a thought would the eye of terror it self count as a loss. It's filled with daemons and they are out side of the warp.

You are also not seeing reason, as reasoning is subjective.


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But it's not an incursion is it? The Eye is a Warp/Material overlap, they are not running around killing in the material realm. Essentially, the Eye of Terror IS the Warp, you go in it, you are in the Warp.

No battle is whatever the costs, to say it is is crazy. Consequences do matter. Usually daemons are a big enough threat that usualy they don't get to that point.

Fighting Daemons on 1 planet is not worth sacrificng the whole chapter. If they lost all the GK to save one planet would it be a loss- Yes obviously, the GK are worth more than the planet.

By your logic throwing the GK into the eye of terror would be a good idea as they could kill lots of daemons. But shockingly they don't do it. The imperium only wants to fight when the outcome will be beneficial. Attacking daemons when there is no benefit is a useless waste of soldiers. There will get a point when winning the battle isn't worth the resouces to fight, this is when they leave or exterminatus. Resources aren't free, they can't be thrown into every battle.

iproxtaco wrote:You are also not seeing reason, as reasoning is subjective.

There is no reason to see, you are simply ignoring the base fact that they lost a fight. If you lose a fight, that fight is lost, the war might not be, but the fight is, hence you have lost. A football team loses a game but wins the league overall, they still lost that game. That is what you are either failing to see or blatantly ignoring.

Actually, they never declare a result until they've won. The Grey Knights may be dead, but they still declare the battle as on-going. They battle only ends when the Grey Knights know that they've beaten back the Daemons.

So what you are saying, is that they flip a coin until they get the result they want and then say they've won? "I want heads." "Okay, Best of 3" "Look, 2 tails, I win." "No, best of 5... best of 7... best of 9... look, 5 Heads, I win, kthxbi."

Actually yes.

The new GK codex just got a whole lot worse...
At least other factions can accept they have lost. They might swear vengence and go to extreeme lengths to kill a particular enemy but they don't try and deny the truth.

Considering the nature of daemons then all battles against them would be victories. They are bound to fade with time, nomatter how massive the warp rift might be. So really that kind of reasoning would make the grey knights entirely redundant.... a lame poodle would achieve the same results in the end.

What? That makes nearly no sense.

Allow me to paraphrase:

Since warp rifts are temporary, as is daemon presence in the material world, a victory could be achieved by anything that managed to evade destruction before the rift closed and the daemons faded back to the warp.

At least I think that's what he meant.

On the other hand you could say that any battle in which Daemons have inflicted even 1 casualty has been a loss for GK since Daemons are essentially immortal and simply reform in the Warp.

So, let the Daemons come through and cause massive destruction across multiple planets? Warp rifts do not have a definite time in which they will close. What if it lasts for years? The Imperium can't afford that. The Grey Knights are essentially a form of damage control, like pimped out secret space-firemen.

So essentially the GK cannot win. All they do is limit the casualties...
I'm not saying they aren't really good but everyone loses once in a while.

Especially against daemons which are immortal. Thats the point of chaos, It will come it will cause a lot of damage but in the end it will be beaten back as once it loses moment it fades. However these battles don't cost chaos anything. Other forces are unable to attack chaos once it has retreated and any daemons killed will just return to the warp.

Chaos can't occupy your planets or steal resources but you can't wipe it out either.

The GK are just a shield. They might hold back the daemons but they do it suffering large casulties while chaos remains as strong as it always has been.

Sorry for the terrible language, i get carried away sometimes.... but yes, anything that can hold the demons attention untill they fade back into the warp would suffice. as in a lame poodle on a jetbike perhaps. or something less silly but just as harmless.

As for the daemons running rampage across entire sectors.... wouldent the imperial guard do just as well as the space marines that couldnt afford paint for their armor?

Daemons aren't animals, they're sapient. You can't just draw their attention away if all they want to do is kill, that would take a target that can survive and possibly beat them, hence the Grey Knights, who also push them back into the Warp, a task they have not failed in so far.

Do you know why the Grey Knights exist? To be an effective force against Daemons so that the threat Chaos poses to humanity can be kept secret. Why would you fight them with thousands of ineffective humans who are susceptible to corruption and are prone to blabbing about their experiences to the general populace?

Except most of the time they do send IG. There just aren't enough GK. 1000 soldiers across the entire galaxy isn't going to work.

GK go in when you don't just want to kill the daemons, but need to achieve some objective on that planet. If they just want to protect the planet they use the IG. There are too few GK to hold even one planet alone. The GK would be sent to key locations.

You can distract daemons, give them something that they want to kill but have no chance of catching or harming.

Eh? Imperial Guard ARE NOT sent against Daemons in place of the Grey Knights. They are sent to planets where they are needed, Grey Knights are sent to every Daemonic incursion, every single one, and they have no alternative motives other than to stop Daemons. The Guard don't know what they are fighting before they get there.

You can't just distract Daemons like a dog, there's no way you can effectively draw them away because they aren't your average military force. Plus, what do you use when the Grey Knights are more effective, thorough, faster and more available and their literally nothing on the planet that can coordinate such a feat?

If the Imperium had to they would send Guardsmen in ahead of GK.
The Imperium buys time through blood. Whether this is time to save a world or time to turn a weapon on the enemy it is all the same.