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On Guard fighting Daemons:
Guardsmen get involved in fighting daemons by virtue of there normally being PDF regiments on the planet in question prior to the daemons invading. The Administratum, being only dimly aware of a planetary invasion from an unknown enemy, send some nearby regiments to deal with the problem. Its feasible to assume that a Guard force could overcome a daemonic incursion on their own if they had the numbers, strategy and a fair amount of luck. In such a case though ,the incursion might not have been deemed so great as to become a priority to the Grey Knights to send a portion of their extremely limited resources to fight the daemons off anyways. The Guardsmen involved in the fighting are killed off at any rate, in this case likely by a force of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Every Daemonic incursion warrants the attention of the Grey Knights.

This is a joke right? 1000 warriors cannot, and never will be able to, cover the million worlds of the Imperium. Look at the Deamon Codex for successful incursions.


And what is this about Exterminatus not being a loss? The Imperium values worlds much more than the billions of lives they send to defend them. This is exactly why they'd rather conduct a 50 year campaign, with many millions dead, than kill the planet off. If a GK team needs to resort to an Exterminatus that means they have failed to preserve the planet, meaning they lost.

The planet destroyed, half the chapter wiped out, countless guard and other troops dead, but that demon was taught a lesson! Oh yeah, and any imperial survivors of this "victory" are either killed or mind wiped to preserve the secrecy of the GK. If that is the case then the imperium is better off without them.

cadbren wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Every Daemonic incursion warrants the attention of the Grey Knights.

This is a joke right? 1000 warriors cannot, and never will be able to, cover the million worlds of the Imperium. Look at the Deamon Codex for successful incursions.


And what is this about Exterminatus not being a loss? The Imperium values worlds much more than the billions of lives they send to defend them. This is exactly why they'd rather conduct a 50 year campaign, with many millions dead, than kill the planet off. If a GK team needs to resort to an Exterminatus that means they have failed to preserve the planet, meaning they lost.

The planet destroyed, half the chapter wiped out, countless guard and other troops dead, but that demon was taught a lesson! Oh yeah, and any imperial survivors of this "victory" are either killed or mind wiped to preserve the secrecy of the GK. If that is the case then the imperium is better off without them.

Its more than just teaching the daemon a lesson. Any daemon powerful enough to cause casualties like that would have a huge cooldown time to wait out in the Warp; thousands of years before the opportunity arrives for it to try its hand at invasion again. This is what happened with Angron after the First War for Armageddon.

This is the trade-off between Greater and Lesser Daemons. Individually, Lesser Daemons do not require so much time to re-coalesce in the Warp, even if they can be banished by Guardsman Joe and his flashlight. Against a pychic powerhouse like a Grey Knight however, they can be banished or even destroyed with little effort. Greater Daemons are difficult to overcome in the real world and pretty much impossible to destroy without cheats like the Tesseract Labyrinth or Hyperstone Maze, but rarely get the opportunity to attack realspace, and when they loose they take ages to pull themselves back together.

You guys do know that the thread is about GK vs anything but deamons. And you just spent 3 pages talking about fighting deamons.

GK against a army of any other race but deamons would get squished.

Aside that one instance in their codex with the rewriting history planet, I see no reason for GK to fight Necrons. They have no warp signature to bring daemons forward for crying out loud.

Wow this thread is... interesting.

GK would likely exterminate enemy xenos with similar proficiency to daemons.

Besides, they have to fight xenos corrupted by daemons occasionally as well.

Also, saying the GK can't ever lose seems... a bit silly. I'd say the fight with Gharguloth was a horrific loss with a silver lining, the fact they banished him back to the warp for however many years. They still lost like 300 grey knights in the process, and after reading Sacrifice in Victories of Space Marines, that is an absolutely devastating loss considering how much they put into each and every GK and their weaponry.

If gk end up fighting something thats "less corrupt" then daemons, then they would probably reason that everything that breathes other then them aids the daemonic terrors and therefore has to die. Ironically, should they gk be totally successful then they would have to kill every psychically active race in the galaxy. then the warp would go quiet over time.

They are undeniably less effective against normal aliens. So many of their weapons focus on daemons that they have little or no effect against other targets.

GK would be ok against races that use psykers as their powers counter them. Against Tau or Nids who don't use any psykers ( as far as I know tyranid psykers work differently) some of their best weapons would have no effect. Their weapons would be just as effective as normal SMs yet there would be a lot less of them.

They would also have less experience than normal marines at fighting non daemonic enemies. Anti daemon tactics aren't going to work against an army that will sit back and shoot you.

4M2A wrote:They are undeniably less effective against normal aliens. So many of their weapons focus on daemons that they have little or no effect against other targets.

GK would be ok against races that use psykers as their powers counter them. Against Tau or Nids who don't use any psykers ( as far as I know tyranid psykers work differently) some of their best weapons would have no effect. Their weapons would be just as effective as normal SMs yet there would be a lot less of them.

They would also have less experience than normal marines at fighting non daemonic enemies. Anti daemon tactics aren't going to work against an army that will sit back and shoot you.

i know its redundant but its quite possible to make a shooty daemon army. 3 soulgrinders are bound to be usefull against these guys.

tarnish wrote:

4M2A wrote:They are undeniably less effective against normal aliens. So many of their weapons focus on daemons that they have little or no effect against other targets.

GK would be ok against races that use psykers as their powers counter them. Against Tau or Nids who don't use any psykers ( as far as I know tyranid psykers work differently) some of their best weapons would have no effect. Their weapons would be just as effective as normal SMs yet there would be a lot less of them.

They would also have less experience than normal marines at fighting non daemonic enemies. Anti daemon tactics aren't going to work against an army that will sit back and shoot you.

i know its redundant but its quite possible to make a shooty daemon army. 3 soulgrinders are bound to be usefull against these guys.

3 Soulgrinders =/= Artillery Regiment.

Really if you think about it they might not be as effective against ork's or Tyranid's......

They would most likely WIN yes, however as far as effeciency goes not so much. If you are taught to fight demons for hundreds of years and have experience ONLY fighting demons, you will be quite naive to the behavior and tactics of a completely different foe.

Don't demon incursions tend to involve idiot humans who've turned to chaos for life's answers? Aren't demonic incursions usually the result of cults who can subvert entire governments to their will?
In order to fight the demons I'm sure the Grey Knights have fought more than their share of battles against cultist armies who are protecting their newly arisen "god".

4M2A wrote:They are undeniably less effective against normal aliens. So many of their weapons focus on daemons that they have little or no effect against other targets.

GK would be ok against races that use psykers as their powers counter them. Against Tau or Nids who don't use any psykers ( as far as I know tyranid psykers work differently) some of their best weapons would have no effect. Their weapons would be just as effective as normal SMs yet there would be a lot less of them.

They would also have less experience than normal marines at fighting non daemonic enemies. Anti daemon tactics aren't going to work against an army that will sit back and shoot you.

A bolter shell is a bolter shell. A power sword is a power sword. Get hit with either and you will most certainly be dead, regardless of which dimension you're from.
The only thing working against the Grey Knights is their limited numbers, which does put them at a disadvantage against horde armies like Orks or Tyranids.

In the new codex, there are instances of the Grey Knights fighting against these two armies. Both are timeline entries, so details are vague, but on Sondhiem V, the Grey Knights get involved in a epic three way battle between the Tyranids and Daemons. In the end, the Grey Knights call down orbital assets and escape with a chaotic artifact. On Beroghast, the details are even more vague, but it seems like the Grey Knights took care of the Orks seemingly without problem.

Ironsight wrote:In the new codex, there are instances of the Grey Knights fighting against these two armies. Both are timeline entries, so details are vague, but on Sondhiem V, the Grey Knights get involved in a epic three way battle between the Tyranids and Daemons. In the end, the Grey Knights call down orbital assets and escape with a chaotic artifact.

Are you sure that was the Grey Knights and not another Space Marine chapter?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Ironsight wrote:In the new codex, there are instances of the Grey Knights fighting against these two armies. Both are timeline entries, so details are vague, but on Sondhiem V, the Grey Knights get involved in a epic three way battle between the Tyranids and Daemons. In the end, the Grey Knights call down orbital assets and escape with a chaotic artifact.

Are you sure that was the Grey Knights and not another Space Marine chapter?

The Sky Sentinels chapter were in orbit during the battle, and were the ones that enacted exterminatus after the Grey Knights got what they came for.

Yes a bolter shell is still a bolter shell but thats isn't the point I was making.

GK are very small in number but make of for it with better equipment. While they can't commit a large number of marines to a single fight those they do send will be better.

However agianst non daemonic enemies their abilites will be as good as any other SM but they still won't have a lot of marines to use.

Their power comes from having specialised weapons and tactics. Without that they are just another SM chapters- one that is stretch very thin because they have to fight threats all across the galaxy.

4M2A wrote:Yes a bolter shell is still a bolter shell but thats isn't the point I was making.

GK are very small in number but make of for it with better equipment. While they can't commit a large number of marines to a single fight those they do send will be better.

However agianst non daemonic enemies their abilites will be as good as any other SM but they still won't have a lot of marines to use.

Their power comes from having specialised weapons and tactics. Without that they are just another SM chapters- one that is stretch very thin because they have to fight threats all across the galaxy.

That was kind of exactly what he said though. They're very good against Daemons obviously, but it's true that a lot of what makes them unique (Aegis, psychic powered weaponry) won't be as good against an Ork who is made of material flesh and biology. But a sword is still a sword and a storm bolter is still a storm bolter, other than that, you're right in what you say, other than very up-to-date technology, against anything else, they're just like an army of honor guard (in the fluff obviously).

Those silvered GK always win -.- *talks a defeated-by-GK CSM player*

The only thing they can't stop is the CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.

<post redacted; avoid rudeness, or avoid posting --Janthkin>

Right, this thread basically died a about four weeks ago, I had no idea some randomer would come along and insult me because I have a different view.
Please read the forum rules before posting anything.

Here's a big hole in you're logic. If everyone can make stuff up about the universe and then portray it as fact, here's mine. The Grey Knights have never lost to Daemons, that's fact apparently.

Talking about the strength of Grey Knights on the table-top is also off-topic.
You spelled pathetic wrong by the way.

While I agree that GK can lose, Iproxtaco's point is valid. Now I havn't read any of these book you've all been talking about, but I can at least say that individual battles, even lost ones, can be the reason for further victory. In a war, the individual loss is not counted towards a win/lose ratio. The US has never lost a war (nam wasn't technically a war, although I count it as a lose obviously). Do you think that they'd be able to say that if they counted individual lossed battles in certain wars?

In this situation of a loss, with GK coming back in and killing everyone, yes it's a lost battle that requires reinforcements, but the GK that all died may have been able to hold back the deamon invation long enough for a larger force to arive and finish it off. This loss may be viewed as a victory for the memorial, and their sacrifice isn't in vain. In the end victory was had.

Yes, "in the end" does matter. The end result being victory is what matters, not a loss of an individual battle on the way there.

did you read the 5ed coxed they can kill everything but Daemons

Elaborate if you please, you must be reading a different Codex than mine.

The fact of the matter is, Grey Knights very rarely engage in a conflict which does not invlolve chaos in some way or another. Their reasources and man-power is spread increadibly thin; only massive daemonic encoursions would unite the chapter.

iproxtaco is correct in that the Grey Knights are forewarned of next to every daemonic event. However, the Grey Knights realistically cannot "win" per say. A win for them is closing the warp portal/banishing the extremely-powerful daemon etc. Many people assume that horrendous casualties are a loss or a phyrric victory however, no sacrifice is too great for the Grey Knights to quash a daemonic encoursion.

Against non-daemonic foes, fluff-wise, the Grey Knights are devestating to say the least. This doesn't mean they can and will smash everything in their path but as they are almost completely unknown to mankind's enemies they find the Grey Knights difficult to defeat. Against psychic races such as Eldar, Grey Knights have a plethora of anti-psyker weponry to counter-act them and against horde armies, it is the case that the purifiers lead the charge.

4M2A wrote:Their power comes from having specialised weapons and tactics.

Partly so. Whilst their weapons are something much of the universe have never seen and they are lead by arguably the best tacticians in the Imperium (GMs) the Grey Knight's real strength comes from their faith. No other force in the Imperium can match their zeal or faith in the Emperor and it is this faith which proves to be a key contributing factor in many of their victories.

MA.

iproxtaco wrote:No, they haven't. A Grey Knight win is achieved when they stop the Daemonic incursion. They can all die, so long as that is achieved, and so far, they have always won.

Hammer of Daemons starts off with a battle GK lose.

King Pariah wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they haven't. A Grey Knight win is achieved when they stop the Daemonic incursion. They can all die, so long as that is achieved, and so far, they have always won.

Hammer of Daemons starts off with a battle GK lose.

Great, go on, jump into the thread, miss that point being discussed, it's alright.

King Pariah wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, they haven't. A Grey Knight win is achieved when they stop the Daemonic incursion. They can all die, so long as that is achieved, and so far, they have always won.

Hammer of Daemons starts off with a battle GK lose.

Yeah we have had this argument about GK never losing before...
GK didn't come out on top.

No resolution, those who back the point maintain their view, although many people seemed to miss what they were saying.

Grey Knights is never beaten in battle. If we win, we win. If we lose, we's dead so that don't count. And if we run, we can always come back fer anuver go, see?!

Yeah, applying ork logic to Grey Knights is fail. The GK have gotten their asses kicked a fair number of times.

Also see Phyrric Victory.