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Well, seems i was wrong then, it does say less than 3 not just 1 or 2.

Nagashek wrote:The natural roll is a 6. Subtract any 6's. Add your wizard level. If the result is more than or equal to the needed value: Roll succeeded.

You don't add the wizard level to the roll, the total of the roll is added to the level, and since in this scenario the 6 has already been removed, there is no roll to add to the wizard level in order to generate a total.

nosferatu1001 wrote:A modifier is something that adds or subtracts a number. Ignoring / Removing a die is not a modifier, either in English or in GW terms.

The slann stops the spell going off, as you rolled a number less than 3.

The natural D6 your rolled was a 3 or better, though. Reguardless of whether or not the die is removed, the spell is cast if the wizards bonus is high enough

Not Enough Power says if the total score of the PD(without any modifiers) is a 1 or a 2, the spell fails IIRC.

i'll have to check my rule book when i get home.

0 isn't 1 or 2 so I say its cast.

Ragnar4 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:A modifier is something that adds or subtracts a number. Ignoring / Removing a die is not a modifier, either in English or in GW terms.

The slann stops the spell going off, as you rolled a number less than 3.

The natural D6 your rolled was a 3 or better, though. Reguardless of whether or not the die is removed, the spell is cast if the wizards bonus is high enough

The "natural 6" is discarded. Becalming only discards "natural" 6's. If there is no natural die result of 3 or higher present when all power dice have been rolled/rerolled then it fails. Casting value is natural die rolls + any modifiers. Are you suggesting that Becalming has no effect on whether a spell is cast or not, simply on the die roll needed to dispel?

HoverBoy wrote:Initiate the "what discarded means in a GW ruleset" argument now.

I warned you all

Ragnar4 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:A modifier is something that adds or subtracts a number. Ignoring / Removing a die is not a modifier, either in English or in GW terms.

The slann stops the spell going off, as you rolled a number less than 3.

The natural D6 your rolled was a 3 or better, though. Reguardless of whether or not the die is removed, the spell is cast if the wizards bonus is high enough

No, actually your natural dice roll was discarded, therefore the spell cannot be cast

Before you get to adding up dice roll plus wizard level the dice roll ceased to exist. You cannot have it count and not count, that is not only inconsistent but ignores the rules for the Slaaan

Grey Templar wrote:Not Enough Power says if the total score of the PD(without any modifiers) is a 1 or a 2, the spell fails IIRC.

i'll have to check my rule book when i get home.

0 isn't 1 or 2 so I say its cast.

That's already been answered:

"No matter how powerful a wizard might be, he cannot cast a spell where the total of the natural dice score is less then 3. A dice total of 1 or 2 is always considered to be a failure, despite the level of the wizard. This is true regardless of any bonuses, from any source." pg. 32

The statement about a 1 or a 2 is statement of fact based upon the proceeding rule and in no way places a limit on it.

hmmm, I guess so.


If the rule had just been 1 or 2 then the spell would still be cast, but the "less then 3 part" is the kicker.

Step 1 Roll the D6.
Step 2 D6 rolls a 6
Step 3 Slann's power checks to see if natural 6 was rolled, it was, 6 is removed
Step 4 Cast determines if natural 6 was rolled, even though die is gone, it still rolled a natural six, so spell is castable.
step 5, Add wizards level to dice in this case 4 + 0
step 6, Check to see if your 4 is higher than the requisite cost of the spell.

Just because the d6 doesn't count towards the casting value of the spell does not mean you didn't roll it. The "Natural roll of the die" cannot be changed, even if the d6 was thrown in the fire and destroyed by the owning player.

Just because the d6 doesn't count towards the casting value of the spell does not mean you didn't roll it. The "Natural roll of the die" cannot be changed, even if the d6 was thrown in the fire and destroyed by the owning player.

This also means that a reroll cannot overcome a "Not enough power". If you roll double 1's, and have the ability to reroll, it does not matter, the spell will fail because the "natural roll of the die" cannot be changed.

Don't the rules for "re-rolls" suggest that you can always re-roll a d6 no matter what the rules are, if you have a re-roll available?

I am not suggesting that you cannot reroll...

I am saying that if your definition of "natural roll" is what turns up on the dice when you throw them the first time, then according to "not enough power", you would not be able to cast. If the natural roll of the dice cannot be changed, then a reroll cannot overcome the "not enough power" section.

I do not believe this to be true. I am pointing out an absurdity when you draw that argument to its logical conclusion.

The reroll and the discard occur at the same moment. You toss the dice, and before determining anything else, you apply the rules of either a reroll or Cogitation. The reroll means the original roll never counted and the discard means the original roll never counted. What this means is that the original roll for the caster was a 0.

And I'm suggesting that your "absurd conclusion argument" is fallacious because the rules for re-rolling a d6 override this siutuation.

You can't naturally roll a 0 on a d6. Only a 1-6. Speaking of the absurd.

With that in mind, I think we could say that a "natural roll" is the final sum of the dice rolled, before modifiers, but after re-rolls and discards.
I'm pretty sure that everyone's posted enough stuff to prove this, but I'm not feeling up to restating it all in order.
Any more thoughts?

How exactly would the rules for rerolling a die override your definition of what the "natural roll" is?
You said in your post that a natural roll can never be changed.

You can't naturally roll a 0 on a d6. Only a 1-6. Speaking of the absurd.

But you can roll a 0 when you never rolled a die that counted.

**Edit**

With that in mind, I think we could say that a "natural roll" is the final sum of the dice rolled, before modifiers, but after re-rolls and discards

This is the most logical conclusion to determining what a "natural roll" is. It allows for the proper use of the words discard and reroll.

Ragnar4 wrote:Step 1 Roll the D6.
Step 2 D6 rolls a 6
Step 3 Slann's power checks to see if natural 6 was rolled, it was, 6 is removed

and at this point there is no dice any longer. It never existed, it is a dead dice.

Ragnar4 wrote:Step 4 Cast determines if natural 6 was rolled, even though die is gone, it still rolled a natural six, so spell is castable.

No, no dice exists to check at this point. The dice has been removed from the game. You cannot check the value of something that no longer exists.

I would argue that after you discard the 6, there is no natural roll, so it works.

Ragnar4 wrote:Step 1 Roll the D6.
Step 2 D6 rolls a 6
Step 3 Slann's power checks to see if natural 6 was rolled, it was, 6 is removed
Step 4 Cast determines if natural 6 was rolled, even though die is gone, it still rolled a natural six, so spell is castable.
step 5, Add wizards level to dice in this case 4 + 0
step 6, Check to see if your 4 is higher than the requisite cost of the spell.

Just because the d6 doesn't count towards the casting value of the spell does not mean you didn't roll it. The "Natural roll of the die" cannot be changed, even if the d6 was thrown in the fire and destroyed by the owning player.

The problem with this is, we are not told where in the process do you check for the natural roll, nor are we told when to discard the die.
Someone could just as easily write:
Step 1: Roll D6.
Step 2: The roll is a "6"
Step 3: Is the natural roll less then 3 causing failure and loss of concentration? No, go on to step 4.
Step 4: Slaan forces the discard of the 6.
Step 5: Vampire adds his +4 to casting value.
Step 6: Casting value is met, spell is successful, Lizardman may attempt to dispel.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying do it this way.
What I am saying is that this falls beyond the current scope of the rules and needs a FAQ.
GW's example in the rule of the roll being a 1 or 2 shows that they didn't account for rolls of Zero.
The Rule Also says, Before any bonuses; but does not mention penalties.
By that token, a Vampire player with 6 Bale Fire corpse carts could cause any natural roll of 8 or less to fail.


-Matt

It seems to me that the check comes after any modifiers to the dice itself, but before adding spell level.

Why? Because you couldn't re-roll otherwise. Example:

Step 1: Roll D6.
Step 2: The roll is a "2"
Step 3: Is the natural roll less then 3 causing failure and loss of concentration? Yes.
Step 4: Daemon (or whatever else) chooses to re-roll.

But the loss of concentration has happened. Re-roll all you want, but you can't cast any more spells as you have already lost concentration. So before loss of concentration is evaluated, dice need to be wholesale removed or re-rolled.

Likewise, (and I already stated this...) if he rolled 2 6's and the check came before Slann used Becalming, he would get Irresistable Force immediately. So the spell would be cast even though the total was 0. And it would be undispellable. That obviously makes no sense.

It is a common way of working that dice result needs to be determined before you can move further on - so modifiers, rerolls and in this case removing dice must happen before you decide the result of those dice

Otehrwise Cold Blooded would not work, nor would BSB rerolls.

GW's example in the rule of the roll being a 1 or 2 shows that they didn't account for rolls of Zero

But they did account for it indirectly with the first sentence in the rule.

"No matter how powerful a wizard might be, he cannot cast a spell where the total of the natural dice score is less then 3. A dice total of 1 or 2 is always considered to be a failure, despite the level of the wizard. This is true regardless of any bonuses, from any source."

Just because the second sentence does not mention 0, it does not mean that a roll of 0 would bypass the first sentence. A roll of 0 is still less than 3.

incidently the natural roll of the dice is after re-rolls.

the problem lies in the slann rule does not specify where in the casting sequence the dice is removed. and the rule book does not specify when the test for the dice total is taken nore is it specific when the test for not enough power is taken

i would say that this is resolved by the rule on P10 under sequencing. When there is a problem with the sequencing of events the current player decides the seqence of events. In this case we have multiple things that occur but do not have a seuence of events that is specific.

so as the active player i would make the sequence of events occur like this.

...
select one die from the power pool
roll one die
option for re-rolls from either player
detemine natural score (6 in this case)
meet requirement for not enough power
discard dice before determining casting total (following slann rule as you must discard the dice before determining the casting total)
determine casting total of 4 + 1 from bonus
casting total of 5 meets spell minimum
proceed to dispel phase.


i would say the spell is cast as all casting requirements have been met.

lixulana - see above, you remove the dice before deciding the rsult, in common with any other effect that interferes with a dice roll.

odd my rule book does not have that sequence of events in it, that i can find. Please quote the exact page where that specific sequence is quoted.

otherwise i stand by my p10 ruling of the active player decides the sequence of events when there is no specific rule.

there is no specific rule sequence when you determine not enough power, and the slann rule has no specific rule to say exactly when in the sequence it takes effect.

so technically it has no effect as i remove the dice after the casting total is determined as it is the active players choice when determining the order of sequence.

OK, you could just read the rest of the posts which renders yours moot.

Name me another time where you determine the result of a dice and THEN alter it. Rerolls, modifiers, loss.

Answer: you dont.

That would work, except for the definition of "discarded", as in "to no effect". Pretty sure on that one.

lixulana wrote:incidently the natural roll of the dice is after re-rolls.

the problem lies in the slann rule does not specify where in the casting sequence the dice is removed. and the rule book does not specify when the test for the dice total is taken nore is it specific when the test for not enough power is taken

i would say that this is resolved by the rule on P10 under sequencing. When there is a problem with the sequencing of events the current player decides the seqence of events. In this case we have multiple things that occur but do not have a seuence of events that is specific.

so as the active player i would make the sequence of events occur like this.

...
select one die from the power pool
roll one die
option for re-rolls from either player
detemine natural score (6 in this case)
meet requirement for not enough power
discard dice before determining casting total (following slann rule as you must discard the dice before determining the casting total)
determine casting total of 4 + 1 from bonus
casting total of 5 meets spell minimum
proceed to dispel phase.


i would say the spell is cast as all casting requirements have been met.

So, your logic would allow for the Slann's opponent to bypass Becalming by saying "I've rolled my 6's for IF. Becalming happens after that, too bad, so sad."? There is no sequencing conflict here. You roll the dice. Becalming removes and 6's. NEP and successful casting occur after that. Spell failure (whether NEP or failing to meet casting) or success have to occur after.

I want to go back to Nos' definition of "modifying" a dice roll. His argument is that the modification of a d6 does not include the removal of the die.

Page 7 of the BR8 talks about all of the things you can do with a d6. If it's not a modification on that page, then what is it?

I couldn't find anything else that it would remotely apply to, so I'm inclined to call it a modifier.

The lynchpin to the "d6 no longer counts" argument Nos is using depends on the removal of the d6 not being a modifier.

I'd like more clarification as to what Nos considers it to be, honestly.

DukeRustfield wrote:But the loss of concentration has happened. Re-roll all you want, but you can't cast any more spells as you have already lost concentration. So before loss of concentration is evaluated, dice need to be wholesale removed or re-rolled.

Likewise, (and I already stated this...) if he rolled 2 6's and the check came before Slann used Becalming, he would get Irresistable Force immediately. So the spell would be cast even though the total was 0. And it would be undispellable. That obviously makes no sense.

This makes so sense at all. By this logic, re-rolls are useless since your stuck with the original outcome. That means that if you fail a panic test, even if you use the BSB's ability to reroll, your still gonna run away.


You cannot cast a spell using your wizard level alone, so going on the idea that just because you have no natural score, because your a lvl 4, your so awesome that you don't need a natural roll actually goes against the clearly defined rules of needing a natural 3 or better. You must throw at least 1 power dice to cast a spell, but since the one you threw was removed, you threw nothing. RAW, the spell doesn't go off because you didn't throw any power dice. Otherwise Ogre spells would be going off automatically by simply saying "My slaughtermaster whose a level is casting this Ogre spell that only requires a 3+"