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A strange situation occurred today when I was playing my VC against Lizardmen. I was casting Invocation of Nehek (cast on 4+) and I used one die and rolled a 6. His slain had an ability that negates all my 6's to cast. However, my vampire was a level 4 caster with an additional +1 to cast. This resulted in getting a casting value of 5 which beats the minimum casting value of the spell. Would the spell still go off without having any dice to add your caster level too or would it be an automatic fail? I haven't found anything in the rulebook relating to this oddball situation. Help would be greatly appreciated. Page references would be awesome too.

Thanks.

Haven't got anything to hand, but I would say that the spell is cast.

AFAIK there is nothing saying that a spell which is successfully cast is an auto-fail.

My logic is that you have to beat the casting value of the spell with your magic level + total of however many dice you roll, (+/- special rules) so in this case, you would have a level of 4, plus a total power dice roll of 0, plus 1 for your special rule.

As odd as it sounds, the spell seems like it would still be cast. You didn't meet the requirements for "Not Enough Power" (rolling a dice total of 1 or 2), and your casting total met the minimum for the spell.

Agreed, did the same on Fateweaver casting a magic missle, at ard boyz.

The rules seem quite clear.
Did you got not enough power by rolling a 1 or 2 – no you rolled 0.
Did you equal or beat the castibg value, yes the spell is 4+ you had 5+0=5.
By that logic you succeed.

It's certainly an odd situation, but Hover's logic makes sense.

I'd like to hear the reasoning of the people voting the spell is not cast.

I came to the same reasoning as you guys in this situation. I could not find a rule that says it automatically fails and it meets every other requirement for the spell to be cast.

I think HoverBoy has it.
The only (weak) counter I could think of is that you must use at least 1 power die to cast spells, and as the die was discarded, the spell fails by virtue of no dice.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:I think HoverBoy has it.
The only (weak) counter I could think of is that you must use at least 1 power die to cast spells, and as the die was discarded, the spell fails by virtue of no dice.

-Matt

I honestly dont think that is a weak argument at all...

You must use at least one power dice to cast a spell.

You roll a six which you must discard, the power dice no longer exists.

You still used a power dice to start the spell. It was later discarded, but you still met the requisite of using one dice.

Choose Number of Power Dice pg 32:

"At least one dice must be taken from the pool..."

It says nothing about actually needing a power dice to be added to the total to cast something.

"No matter how powerful a wizard might be, he cannot cast a spell where the total of the natural dice score is less then 3. A dice total of 1 or 2 is always considered to be a failure, despite the level of the wizard. This is true regardless of any bonuses, from any source." pg. 32

Since you rolled a 6 and the slann negates it, you rolled a zero. Your dice total is less then 3, so the spell is not cast.

You rolled a 6. The Slaan's ability may say to ignore that 6, but it does not replace it with another value. Notice also it says the "natural" total. See pg 10 for the sidebar about what "natural" means.

When you roll a 6, the "natural" total is 6, even if the dice was ignored. It just doesn't get added to the casting total.

If thats the exact quote then yeah,the spell fails.

I dont have my book on me, but I think it says you discard 6's...

After re-reading the Irresistible Force section, to me it would be a "talk it over with your opponent" situation until/if they FAQ it. The rules weren't written with the idea of removing dice from a cast, just modifying the roll.

The Not Enough Power! section contradicts itself (less than 3 , then it goes on to specifically state totals of 1 or 2, omitting 0), so it looks like a roll it off or hash it out with the opponent situation.

Yes, this is RAW monkeying, and yet another reason why Slaans should be banned

Davall wrote:Yes, this is RAW monkeying, and yet another reason why Slaans should be banned

Oh excuse me Mr. banhammer and what cool models of you'r army do you suggest be outlawed.

HoverBoy wrote:

Davall wrote:Yes, this is RAW monkeying, and yet another reason why Slaans should be banned

Oh excuse me Mr. banhammer and what cool models of you'r army do you suggest be outlawed.

Sorry, did I need to put a /sarcasm or /joking at the end? Don't take offense just because you play that army, yeesh. People need to learn how to relax.

Yea the lack of proper emotional representation is a big drawback to text based communication.

"Any power dice that roll 6 are discarded..." Wording from the LM codex under "Becalming cogitation"

They are no longer there so you would have gotten a 0 for your natural score. Per the previous ruling of "...he cannot cast a spell where the total of the natural dice score is less then 3."

This is actually a pretty clear situation and doesn't require a chat with your opponent or a dice off. Your 6's are gone, your modifiers don't count, the spell doesn't go off, you broke your concentration.

As for the slann himself, it's not that he should be banned, just dumbed down a little. It's too easy to make his crazy powerful, in my opinion.

I agree with that then,

The 6 is discarded, hence it no longer exists. You technically got a 0 to cast the spell... Per the rule of needing a 3 or higher the spell fails to cast.

Of course you will get the argument that "well I rolled a 6" it just got removed...

Initiate the "what discarded means in a GW ruleset" argument now.

The natural roll was a 6.
Slann says discard 6.
Rule says less than 3 on natural roll = fail.

I think you'll have a hard time saying that the spell, after the slann modifies the total by discarding a die, is still the "Natural Roll".

I guess we need a FAQ for natural roll though. What would happen if a Daemon prince rolled snake eyes on his two casting dice, and used his daemonic gift to re-roll one of his dice. Would that avoid the auto-fail and loss of control?

IMO, Roll the power dice:
Do the dice show less than 3? Stop, ignore everything else, spell fails.
3 or higher, apply all modifiers and effects and continue on.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:I guess we need a FAQ for natural roll though.

No, it's not needed. It's actually pretty straight forward. What you see is what you get.

HawaiiMatt wrote:What would happen if a Daemon prince rolled snake eyes on his two casting dice, and used his daemonic gift to re-roll one of his dice. Would that avoid the auto-fail and loss of control?

Yes, that would avoid it because it would change the natural dice roll to now be greater (providing you rolled better) then 2.


You may have rolled a 6 initially, but before you can look at what you got, you discard (remove) any 6's you had and see what your left with. In this case (the slann question) you are left with a natural 0 (strange thought but it's there). To have a spell go off, you need a natural 3 or up. You did not get it.

Scarecrow456 wrote:"No matter how powerful a wizard might be, he cannot cast a spell where the total of the natural dice score is less then 3. A dice total of 1 or 2 is always considered to be a failure, despite the level of the wizard. This is true regardless of any bonuses, from any source." pg. 32

Since you rolled a 6 and the slann negates it, you rolled a zero. Your dice total is less then 3, so the spell is not cast.

That's how I see it.

When they say a dice total of 1 or 2 is always failure, those are just examples. I think you have to do some pretty wacky imagineering to say 1,2 fail, but ZERO is fine. Like you channelled the winds of magic so poorly it flipped back around and became good. Chaos indeed.

To me, it depends on when the die is discarded, before or after modifiers from other sources and wizard levels? If it's before, then you have no dice to add your wizard level to and it isn't cast.

If it's removed after the modifiers, then you didn't roll a natural 1 or 2, and your total is 11, which is then downed to 5 by removing the 6, but since the total is still 4+, it goes off unless someone can find a rule that negates the wizard level addition to die scores that are later removed.

There is nothing to say that removing a die also negates any wizard values already added to it.

The 'natural roll of 0' argument shouldn't apply, since the die was rolled, and then discarded. You didn't roll a 0 (which is impossible), your roll was simply ignored. There is no precedent to suggest that the removal of a die defaults its roll to 0.

I'm going to have to disagree here. The natural roll is defined as the roll on the dice before any modifiers. Removing the die is a modifier, just the same as adding to the roll, subtracting from the roll, or multiplying the roll.

The natural roll is a 6. Subtract any 6's. Add your wizard level. If the result is more than or equal to the needed value: Roll succeeded.

Very simple. Odd ball yes, but it seems obvious to me utilizing RAW and basic math.

But of course, this is GW, the same company who makes Steam Tanks T10 in one FAQ, but refuses to define base sizes for the most popular new model in a codex in another.

I'm going to have to disagree here. The natural roll is defined as the roll on the dice before any modifiers. Removing the die is a modifier, just the same as adding to the roll, subtracting from the roll, or multiplying the roll

Would you consider rerolling a die to also be a modifier?

Either a reroll is a modifier and a discard is not; both are not modifiers; or both are modifiers.

If your definition of modifier is something that changes the result of the original roll, then both the discard and the reroll are modifiers. That means a reroll is pointless for overcoming a "not enough power", as it is the "natural roll" that the rule looks at. I do not believe this to be the case.

If the definition of a modifier is something that adds or subtracts from the roll, such as the wizard level, or magical items, then neither the discard or the reroll is a modifier.

I am open to hearing why a reroll is not a modifier, but why a discard is one.

At first, I thought the loop hole was the 1 & 2, and agreed that you would still cast the spell. After Scarecrow mentioned the first sentence of "not enough power" its pretty obvious that you must surpass a 3 with your natural dice score to cast the spell. A dice score of 1 or 2 may be considered a fail, and it doesn't mention 0, but it does not have to. They have already listed that a 3 or less on the dice is a fail. That closes that loop hole.

The only argument one could make as to why it should cast is that the discard is a modifier, and the natural roll is a 6. As far as determining the timing of the discard, it is before the spell is resolved. All 6's are discarded. I am not sure how you could count the roll as a 6 when it is discarded, unless it is a modifier.

As Hover said... it boils down to what "discard" means in the GW ruleset.

Nagashek wrote:The natural roll is defined as the roll on the dice before any modifiers. Removing the die is a modifier, just the same as adding to the roll, subtracting from the roll, or multiplying the roll.

The natural roll is a 6.

By that logic if he rolled two 6s he would have Irresistible Force even though they got discarded. Because the verbage for IF is:

"If a Wizard rolls two or more unmodified 6s when determining his casting result, the spell has been cast with irrestistible force."

Pretty certain that's not the way it's meant to work.

A thought: the Slann's "Becalming Cogitation" says the dice are discarded. Ignored. Non-existent.

So...if a discarded power die isn't actually these things, then, for example, a Death Wizard versus the Dwarf's Rune of Balance would have to keep track of that phantom die when he replenishes his pool up to the maximum, which would effectively be 11, since there's one die that's been generated, but can't be used.

So...I think I'll say it can't be cast. You need a 3 or more on your dice. Your die is discarded. Therefore, you don't have 3 or more. You have nothing.

A modifier is something that adds or subtracts a number. Ignoring / Removing a die is not a modifier, either in English or in GW terms.

The slann stops the spell going off, as you rolled a number less than 3.

The Slaan broke the magic phase. It is working as intended.