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I don't get why the Thousand son's rapid mutation problem is being overlooked here. It was a flaw in the gene-seed. Ahriman 'cured' those with him. The others that weren't present would still be subject to it.

Ahriman was among the strongest of the chapter in regards to being able to control the 'flesh change', but it was still only a matter of time for him.

I do like the idea of the 'Cursed Founding', or Chapters created from the Traitor legions. I just don't think it would work with Thousand Son gene-seed for the reasons stated above.

Unless said gene-seed WAS cured, but it created a different curse. Most of the curses in the cursed founding were created through manipulation of the gene-seed to try to fix or enhance them.

ph34r wrote:

KingDeath wrote:And by 40k canon you mean fan theories based on some throwaway lines?

So.... uou think Black Library writers don't have a plan for Blood Ravens? That it's just some massive series of coincidences?

A - It doesn't matter what plans Black Library have, the Blood Ravens future is controlled by Relic.
B - I see from your previous post to this one 'blood ravens = thousand sons' that you went into the future and read a copy of a so far unreleased book, untill it is written in stone, all the coincidences are just that, coincidences. It is a very common plot device for long series to give the vaguest of hints that can be inferred heavily by readers in many ways to maintain interest.

BluntmanDC wrote:

ph34r wrote:

KingDeath wrote:And by 40k canon you mean fan theories based on some throwaway lines?

So.... uou think Black Library writers don't have a plan for Blood Ravens? That it's just some massive series of coincidences?

A - It doesn't matter what plans Black Library have, the Blood Ravens future is controlled by Relic.
B - I see from your previous post to this one 'blood ravens = thousand sons' that you went into the future and read a copy of a so far unreleased book, untill it is written in stone, all the coincidences are just that, coincidences. It is a very common plot device for long series to give the vaguest of hints that can be inferred heavily by readers in many ways to maintain interest.

If by the vaguest hints you mean repeatedly beating you over the head with it, then yes, GW has given some hints about the relationship between the two.

iirc, it was revealed somewhere that Ahriman was secretly behind the Cursed Founding. If he'd come up with another mutation cure, it would seem likely that he'd want to test it out on Thousand Son geneseed.

Eumerin wrote:iirc, it was revealed somewhere that Ahriman was secretly behind the Cursed Founding. If he'd come up with another mutation cure, it would seem likely that he'd want to test it out on Thousand Son geneseed.

That was Fabuis Bile you're thinking of...
Ahriman is a sorceror not a scientist, he doesn't have the know how to figure out gene-seed... though he might know a daemon who does.

purplefood wrote:

Eumerin wrote:iirc, it was revealed somewhere that Ahriman was secretly behind the Cursed Founding. If he'd come up with another mutation cure, it would seem likely that he'd want to test it out on Thousand Son geneseed.

That was Fabuis Bile you're thinking of...
Ahriman is a sorceror not a scientist, he doesn't have the know how to figure out gene-seed... though he might know a daemon who does.

D'oh. You're right. I'm getting my heretical nutcases confused.

Eumerin wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Eumerin wrote:iirc, it was revealed somewhere that Ahriman was secretly behind the Cursed Founding. If he'd come up with another mutation cure, it would seem likely that he'd want to test it out on Thousand Son geneseed.

That was Fabuis Bile you're thinking of...
Ahriman is a sorceror not a scientist, he doesn't have the know how to figure out gene-seed... though he might know a daemon who does.

D'oh. You're right. I'm getting my heretical nutcases confused.

Fairly easy to do actually...

I don't know how you can get Ahriman confused with Bile to be honest.

Ahriman isn't really a 'nutcase' in any sense. He's doing what he's doing to try to reverse the Rubric. He thinks the Black Library and the Harlequins might have the secret as to how to do it.

Bile, on the other hand, is just doing it for fun. He's the quintessential 'mad scientist'.

Kanluwen wrote:I don't know how you can get Ahriman confused with Bile to be honest.

Ahriman isn't really a 'nutcase' in any sense. He's doing what he's doing to try to reverse the Rubric. He thinks the Black Library and the Harlequins might have the secret as to how to do it.

Bile, on the other hand, is just doing it for fun. He's the quintessential 'mad scientist'.

They both display elements of 'mad science', imo. One of them (Bile) just shows a considerably larger quantity of those elements.

And as you noted, Ahriman is considerably more focused on a single goal, whereas Bile tends to be more of an 'all over the place' kind of 'researcher'.

I'd put Bile more as being like The Joker while Ahriman is more like Ras Al'Ghul.

Y'know. If I were to perhaps have a Batman reference on my mind.

A - It doesn't matter what plans Black Library have, the Blood Ravens future is controlled by Relic.

having worked on the gorkamorka video game that was never released I can tell you that GW does not let video game developers or producers have any say, not some, but 0 say in how their game is going background wise. Let alone dictate new background without GWs 100% approval. If you think their attitude towards retailers selling and marketing their producsts is ironfist and controlled you have no idea how much the retain control over all aspects of their IP, especially background.

If you think the blood raven lore isnt 100% controlled by GW you are 100% completely wrong.

blaktoof wrote:

A - It doesn't matter what plans Black Library have, the Blood Ravens future is controlled by Relic.

having worked on the gorkamorka video game that was never released I can tell you that GW does not let video game developers or producers have any say, not some, but 0 say in how their game is going background wise. Let alone dictate new background without GWs 100% approval. If you think their attitude towards retailers selling and marketing their producsts is ironfist and controlled you have no idea how much the retain control over all aspects of their IP, especially background.

If you think the blood raven lore isnt 100% controlled by GW you are 100% completely wrong.

Yeah? You got credentials to prove you worked on the "Gorkamorka video game that was never released"?

Second: if you think that GW themselves saying that "The Blood Ravens and their history belongs to Relic, we'll just use the parts of it that we like" isn't GW's approval for Relic(who have proven themselves to be pretty good at keeping within canon, even if the novelizations accompanying their games weren't) to do whatever they want, then you're 100% completely wrong.

OMG it's totally the blood ravins duh lolzr is so obvios!

Ok not really, I just wanted to quote an earlier post's rantings

I wouldn't say it's impossible, just not very likely. Blood Ravens are pretty damned cursed with a ton of them falling to Chaos. It wouldn't surprise me if they were from some sort of Chaos origin, but it's not very likely.

Even if they are from traitor desent would it change anything?
No one knows or if anyone does they don't show it...
If they ever did reveal the origins it might be nice to see the reactions. After all the Blood Ravens protected and served the Imperium and the Emperor for many centuries, surely they deserve a chance at redemption for their cursed genes?
Maybe the macdaddy of all penintent crusades...

Kanluwen wrote:I'd put Bile more as being like The Joker while Ahriman is more like Ras Al'Ghul.

Y'know. If I were to perhaps have a Batman reference on my mind.

I think the Joker just likes messing with people, whereas Bile actually does have research in mind - just very broad-based and open-ended research...

I suspect that Batman does have someone in his Rogues' Gallery who would be a decent match, though no names come to mind. A good fit from another source might be the villain who created the 'cat' in one episode of "The Big O" (a somewhat obscure reference - but if you've seen the episode, then you know *exactly* what I'm talking about).

Bile seem like the kinda guy to change research topics frequently...

I don't see why not? Every traitor Legion have a few loyalist left, maybe some of them found some Space Marine chapter. But we can't tell anything for sure, it was a mess back ten and most of the record where destroyed.

Blood Ravens where made then, it's possible that they are the successors of the TS, but that only GW knows...

I would guess that most of those loyalists died during the fighting...
The few left probably weren't trusted so they went deeper into the new Imperium.

I would direct you to the other thread covering this very issue for arguments from both sides. There's not really any point in trying to argue the same thing in two threads simultaneously.

Well we can still think about whther any other chapters are from the Thousand Sons or whether there are indeed factions present in 40k that are from the Thouand Sons but did not follow them into the Eye...

I think that they integrated survivors into Imperium as Chapter Masters, Inquisitors and something like that. That would be the most logical conclusion.

Not really...
If you have just had a massive civil war and there are a few elements of a notably information centric force thta have stayed loyal it seems a bad idea to put them in charge of large and dangerous organisations at one of the most perilous times for a new government.

Well, on the most basic level, we know that aside from whatever outposts and crusading elements there were, the entire Thousand Sons fleet, battle barges and all, was broken down into 4 smaller fleets and sent in multiple directions with sealed orders.

We know that these fleets at least survived the raising of Prospero, although at least some engaged in combat with other forces. We know that these fleets still thought themselves loyalists and did not know what had happened on Prospero.

Finally, we know that at least one Sgt from the fleet blamed Magnus for their destruction, watched the World Eaters butcher his comrades, and vowed to find the rest of his brothers and find out the truth about what happened on Prospero.

And that's what we know for sure about Thousand Sons that did not teleport into the eye.

I would say it is possible they are outside the Imperium just watching and waiting for a time where they feel they can interact with either the Imperium or spend their lives in saving it against some horrible force.

purplefood wrote:I would say it is possible they are outside the Imperium just watching and waiting for a time where they feel they can interact with either the Imperium or spend their lives in saving it against some horrible force.

I would say that in order to survive 10,000 years, they would either need to:

A) Travel into the Eye of Terror, and therefore join the rest of the Thousand Sons or become another Chaos warband.

B) Come to some kind of terms with the Imperium.

As we're seen in ADB's Night Lords series, survivng with out some kind of patron or support when everything is war is night impossible. And that's for a Legion that retreated into the Eye. To them, it's only been decades since the Heresy, and despite themselves they've fallen to a ragtag group of scavengers, or had to ally themselves with other Chaos forces to survive.

IMHO, there's no real way to explain not chosing one or the other option and to still be around in the 40k timeline.

They don't have to be fighting though...
If they were hdden outside of the Imperium they could simply choose when to fight and their targets.

The 10,000 years in realspace is difficult but they have stasis units so they might take shifts watching the Imperium whilst their brothers sleep.

Kanluwen wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

A - It doesn't matter what plans Black Library have, the Blood Ravens future is controlled by Relic.

having worked on the gorkamorka video game that was never released I can tell you that GW does not let video game developers or producers have any say, not some, but 0 say in how their game is going background wise. Let alone dictate new background without GWs 100% approval. If you think their attitude towards retailers selling and marketing their producsts is ironfist and controlled you have no idea how much the retain control over all aspects of their IP, especially background.

If you think the blood raven lore isnt 100% controlled by GW you are 100% completely wrong.

Yeah? You got credentials to prove you worked on the "Gorkamorka video game that was never released"?

Second: if you think that GW themselves saying that "The Blood Ravens and their history belongs to Relic, we'll just use the parts of it that we like" isn't GW's approval for Relic(who have proven themselves to be pretty good at keeping within canon, even if the novelizations accompanying their games weren't) to do whatever they want, then you're 100% completely wrong.

http://downloads.zdnet.com/abstract.aspx?docid=671795

unreleased gorka morka game that is basically freeware now

im not really keen on putting my irl name on the intranetz, sorry :(

can you link anything where GW said "the blood ravens and their history belong to relic" seriously there might be one, I just can't find it.

That said I was very aware of how GW feels about people using, creating, and modifying their IP for video games. It may have changed since 2000 but considering they are just more rabid now about retailers, I am sure they are just more iron fisted.

Agreed, I was going to ask the same thing. GW saying Relic controls what happens to these guys without our input or guidance would be great to read.

Shame to see a game go unreleased...