Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As the subject states, would it be very unusual for their to be a secessor chapter made from the thousand sons, since it is known that in other traitor chapters not every mairne turned to chaos. COuld some of the thousand sons have stayed loyal?

It is impossible for the Traitor Legions to have been used as the basis for successor Chapters. The geneseed is kept locked away and only the Emperor can open the vault.

Sageheart wrote:As the subject states, would it be very unusual for their to be a secessor chapter made from the thousand sons, since it is known that in other traitor chapters not every mairne turned to chaos. COuld some of the thousand sons have stayed loyal?

Before Kanluwen gets in here... (GODAMMIT! How does he do it?!)

We know of, at the moment, a single loyalist Thousand Son. His name is Arvida, and was one of the Thousand Sons who was sent away in the fleet before the arrival of the space wolves.

We don't know anything more about him at the moment. But there are two different theories:

1. Some speculation seems to hint that the Blood Ravens may have some connections to the Thousand Sons. Nothing concrete, however.

2. Arvida goes on to become one of the first Grey Knights. Makes sense, as he's definitely a strong psyker and able to withstand the affects of the fleshchange.

Bottom line is, we don't know. But a successor chapter from ANY traitor legion would be highly unlikely, if not impossible. Especially with the instability inherent within the Thousand Son's geneseed.

It's 2am and I can't sleep. Thus, Dakka gets lurked like I'm a tiger.

Kanluwen wrote:It's 2am and I can't sleep. Thus, Dakka gets lurked like I'm a tiger.

I swear, you have some sort of internal alert that goes off whenever something like this pops up!

By the way, want to start taking bets on how long until someone posts a "OMG it's totally the blood ravins duh lolzr is so obvios!" post?

Nah. The Emperor pokes me in the brainpan and says "Kan! Smite the theories of the infernal enemies!".

Successor Chapters from Traitor Legions?

Grey Knights don't really count because successor chapters use the Geneseed of their parent Legion, and grey Knights were given completely new geneseed.

Blood Ravens.................YAWN

Other than that I can't really think of any chapters that could be called loyalist successors of traitor legions...

Sageheart wrote:As the subject states, would it be very unusual for their to be a secessor chapter made from the thousand sons, since it is known that in other traitor chapters not every mairne turned to chaos. COuld some of the thousand sons have stayed loyal?

Yes. They are called the Blood Ravens, and by 40k canon they are confirmed Thousand Sons successors.

And as far as geneseed is concerned, it is unlikely that they are 100% TS geneseed as this would result in all of them being psykers. It is more likely that they are UM or some other, +TS, a combination like many later founding chapters.

ph34r wrote:

Sageheart wrote:As the subject states, would it be very unusual for their to be a secessor chapter made from the thousand sons, since it is known that in other traitor chapters not every mairne turned to chaos. COuld some of the thousand sons have stayed loyal?

Yes. They are called the Blood Ravens, and by 40k canon they are confirmed Thousand Sons successors.

And as far as geneseed is concerned, it is unlikely that they are 100% TS geneseed as this would result in all of them being psykers. It is more likely that they are UM or some other, +TS, a combination like many later founding chapters.

And by 40k canon you mean fan theories based on some throwaway lines?

It wouldn't be impossible.

If you have a look at the first article that GW did on the 21st Cursed Founding it was strongly hinted that at least some of the chapters founded then might have been based upon traitor geneseed. This was backed up somewhat by some of the rules -- the Sons Antaeus were renowned for their almost supernatural resilience..and followed similar rules to Plague Marines. The Minotaurs were an angry, assault/hand to hand orientated chapter,'berserker-like' IIRC, ..and who followed similar rules to the World Eaters. And some of the other abilities seemed quite themed towards the other chaos powers.

ph34r wrote:

Sageheart wrote:As the subject states, would it be very unusual for their to be a secessor chapter made from the thousand sons, since it is known that in other traitor chapters not every mairne turned to chaos. COuld some of the thousand sons have stayed loyal?

Yes. They are called the Blood Ravens, and by 40k canon they are confirmed Thousand Sons successors.

And as far as geneseed is concerned, it is unlikely that they are 100% TS geneseed as this would result in all of them being psykers. It is more likely that they are UM or some other, +TS, a combination like many later founding chapters.

There is absolutely zero evidence that the Thousand Sons have loyalist successors and the Blood Ravens have very carefully never been given an origin and the information given is purely there to provoke speculation.

you never read the Dawn of War Trilogy then? or are dismissing it as non canon?

I thought every book in the Black Library is automatically canon...

KingDeath wrote:And by 40k canon you mean fan theories based on some throwaway lines?

So.... uou think Black Library writers don't have a plan for Blood Ravens? That it's just some massive series of coincidences?

Not impossible. Whatever happened to the Death Guard loyalists on the Eisenstein?

Garro may of become a GK or started the inquisition

ph34r wrote:

KingDeath wrote:And by 40k canon you mean fan theories based on some throwaway lines?

So.... uou think Black Library writers don't have a plan for Blood Ravens? That it's just some massive series of coincidences?

Well, i don't know what the Black Library writers plan, but as far as Relic is concerned ( after all, what would be the point of them creating their very own chapter if some godawful BL writers take the fluff in an unwanted direction ) there seem to be no hints which confirm any definite source for the Blood Ravens's geneseed. Goto on the other hand is well known for directly contradicting existing fluff from the games/ warhammer 40k as a whole. So no, unless i get the tiniest bit of a reference to Goto's drivel from one of the DoW games i chose to disregard his Black Library books.

Draglide12 wrote:Not impossible. Whatever happened to the Death Guard loyalists on the Eisenstein?

So far, it is implied that they become the first Space Marines to serve in the Inquisition, being forerunners of the Grey Knights. They could further tie this up in a later book. So far Garro is confirmed as becoming Malcador's "Knight Errant", with plain silver armor, no Legion markings, and =][= markings. A grey knight.

*Cough* *coughbloodravens* *cough*

Mustela wrote:*Cough* *coughbloodravens* *cough*

Kan will atempt to eat you if you start that argument here...

Mustela wrote:*Cough* *cough* *cough*

There I fixed it.

Mustela wrote:

Mustela wrote:*Cough* CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT *cough*

There I fixed it.

I fixed it some more...

ph34r wrote:

KingDeath wrote:And by 40k canon you mean fan theories based on some throwaway lines?

So.... uou think Black Library writers don't have a plan for Blood Ravens? That it's just some massive series of coincidences?

Like I said in the other thread on this subject:
The stuff from Goto can pretty much be disavowed at this point. Not only is it out of print(because they have no interest in paying him royalties for that drivel), but it was also the whole reason they established the Heresy 'Council' where the storylines are talked out.

The only stuff we have, as of this moment, is tenuous at best. It's all worded like a carnival fortune teller's predictions, vague and nebulous allowing people to attribute it to anything they want.

The Dawn of War books at no point mention the Thousand Sons or give anything but vague speculation about the Chapter's origins. You know, just like they wanted to do to get people chatting about it in stores and on forums...

Miraclefish wrote:The Dawn of War books at no point mention the Thousand Sons or give anything but vague speculation about the Chapter's origins. You know, just like they wanted to do to get people chatting about it in stores and on forums...

Hah! I won't fall into their cunning trap! Oh, wait, I already did.

The Dawn of War book at no point mention the Thousand Sons...


So exactly what is Ahriman then?

Corennus wrote:The Dawn of War book at no point mention the Thousand Sons...


So exactly what is Ahriman then?

Ahriman was Magnus the Red's right hand man, and he wasn't exactly happy when the Thousand sons fell to chaos. Sooooo, he got together all the sorcerers who also weren't happy with the way things were going for the 1Ksons and they created a magic spell, called the Rubric, to protect the other marines from mutation, so their bodies were turned to dust, and their souls were tapped inside their armor, not exactly what Ahriman intended - he and the sorcerers weren't affected, so now know he goes around looking for:

A) A way to fix the Rubric

B) A way to get into the Black Library (Harlequins aren't happy about this)

So, nobody really knows who Ahriman is affiliated with (Not Magnus, his nemesis) but he's rogue, he's dangerous, and he wants your books.

Mustela wrote:

Corennus wrote:The Dawn of War book at no point mention the Thousand Sons...


So exactly what is Ahriman then?

Ahriman was Magnus the Red's right hand man, and he wasn't exactly happy when the Thousand sons fell to chaos. Sooooo, he got together all the sorcerers who also weren't happy with the way things were going for the 1Ksons and they created a magic spell, called the Rubric, to protect the other marines from mutation, so their bodies were turned to dust, and their souls were tapped inside their armor, not exactly what Ahriman intended - he and the sorcerers weren't affected, so now know he goes around looking for:

A) A way to fix the Rubric

B) A way to get into the Black Library (Harlequins aren't happy about this)

So, nobody really knows who Ahriman is affiliated with (Not Magnus, his nemesis) but he's rogue, he's dangerous, and he wants your books.

That's not what his question was.
He was questioning MiracleFish's statement on the absence of Thousand Sons in the DoW books.
There are Thousand Sons in those books but nothing is said of the founding in relation to them.

My statement was actually meant that the Thousand Sons ARE mentioned in the DoW books, and in fact Ahriman shows the Blood Raven librarian a tome that proves that the Blood Ravens are related to the Thousand Sons.

In fact Ahriman constantly refers to the Blood Raven as a "Son of Ahriman", hinting that Ahriman may have played a part in the creation of the Blood Ravens.

It's also possible in "A Thousand Sons" that the vision of a "Raven of Blood" is the creation of the Blood Ravens using geneseed from the Thousand Sons.

Sorry i meant Miraclefish.
And, i would say that anything Ahriman says is suspect...

If gene-seed was taken before their fall, it's possible, albeit improbable.