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AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Commissar Rant wrote:First to say anything.. at all... about space marines NEEDING ANYTHING is far from fair. Don't like your SM codex? Play out of the reg one, its one of the best out there. Or just use the rules from on of the 50,000 others....

Don't like your Eldar Codex? Play Dark Eldar instead! They're a good Codex!

Seriously, people complain about "Codex-hoppers" but when someone wants to stick to a Codex and wants it updated the Legio Spacemarinehateis turn around and wage a Crusade against every slightest idea about updating marines.

To reiterate: We're in the same situation. I could switch to SW or BA to get an assaulty team, neither of which I want to do. Similarly, if you want to play a fast, fragile hard-hitting army, there's Dark Eldar, which you don't want to play. Because I play a marine army, however, I can't say anything at all while you, as a Xeno player, can complain 'til you drop? Seriously, knock it off with the hypocrisy, it's borderline infuriating.

Question, which do I fall under? Playing both Black Templar and Eldar...? o_O


The hate on codices needing to be updated needs to stop really. It'll happen when it happens. Until then, just laugh it up as you beat these "OP" codices with an out of date one.


As far as what could be done to improve the Eldar... I would have to vote on something along what the DE got. By this I mean their higher mobility. I would love to see the direction of being a highly psychic army support army continue, but if that's to happen there needs to be a way we can counter psychic defense. Too many Eldar armies out there right now are getting shut down by the sheer weight of anti psyker wargear. Simple solution is give us more psykers. The more we have, the less likely we are to be countered. But that would be far too easy to get OP.

Honestly, with some minor tweaks, the Eldar could easily be top tier again in my eyes. We already have a very potent Mech build (Even if it is a bit easy to play), so saying we're completely obsolete is ridiculous. But a few point changes, a few units (Pathfinders, Dark Reapers, and swooping hawks) having some minor changes would drastically improve the Eldar.

On the topic of the corsairs, as was already stated, just because you guys have an image of the corsair doesn't mean that is what you'll get. If you want some "evil" looking elves, go play Dark Eldar. They have plenty of that =/

Look I'm all for being loyal to your Army ok. But the deal is that the reason a codex like Eldar, Tau and Sisters is so out of date is partially because of all the SM varients that GW devotes time and effort to. SM are the only army that apparently need 7 or 8 books. Everyone else gets 1.... Eldar? 1! Tau? 1! Orks? 1! Nids? 1! Even chaos... that have the most potential to have several different "chapters" get.... you guessed it! 1!

I'm not sayong BT aren't behind, currently they are a joke. All I'm saying is that you have an easier fix for issues like that than other armies do. Also Dark Eldar and Eldar are not the same, not even close! The only thing that makes them even similar is they both have "Eldar" in their name...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes the new codex will happen when it happens but the question still remains, whats the direction?

@Amanax yes the mech build is good, I've tore many a face w/ it and my gaming club still tell horror stories about my retired Eldar, both before and after the new dex. But to say we should just kind of hang out and hope GW does us justice in the next edition is too passive for my taste.

GW just got done w/ another price increase, like we weren't paying enough already, so as the customer we should have the right to demand a quality product! Not some crap they threw together when they thought armies would sell better the less characterful they were...

Amanax wrote:Question, which do I fall under? Playing both Black Templar and Eldar...? o_O

You fall under the "dude, that guy's dedicated!" category.

Commissar Rant wrote:I'm not sayong BT aren't behind, currently they are a joke. All I'm saying is that you have an easier fix for issues like that than other armies do. Also Dark Eldar and Eldar are not the same, not even close! The only thing that makes them even similar is they both have "Eldar" in their name...

While they're not as similar as Black Templars are to Vanilla, they've still got very much in common. Both armies focus on glass cannon hit-and-tun tactics, with speed being the essence of the army. Both are mainly T3 with poor-ish saves. Both are highly specialized, requiring the player to know what goes where.

TBH I can't see how one would be able to play a Black Templar army using the vanilla Codex. You've got no mixed squads, no Champion and the best HQ in the book bar special characters is the Librarian... which will make people laugh at you if you try to play a BT army with him.

Blood Angels is more or less the same thing, with the Librarian being so much better than the other generic characters. I suppose that the Sanguinor could work as a decent standin for a Champion. What one would disguise Sang. Priests as I have no clue. Again, the lack of mixed squads are glaring. Templars also don't really use jump packs nearly as much as BA does, leaving one with assault marines in razorbacks as your Templar force. Then there's the problem of justifying fast rhino chassies.

Space Wolves could actually work, as long as you stay clear of Rune Priests, Wolf Guard and Long Fangs... which, incidentally, are three of the best units in the Codex. Once again you're stuck with razorspam or some clever way of inventing something and calling it Thunderwolf Cavalry.

I won't even mention Grey Knights...

In other words, what people are focusing on is the similarities between the Space Marine armies, despite the different Chapters working differently.

Amanax wrote:On the topic of the corsairs, as was already stated, just because you guys have an image of the corsair doesn't mean that is what you'll get. If you want some "evil" looking elves, go play Dark Eldar. They have plenty of that =/

I do play Dark Eldar, and I'm not particularly interested in Corsairs, not least of which because it's not like they'll get a Codex of their own, since if anyone's getting a new codex is some other Space Marine chapter that's identical to the Vanilla codex, just like every extraneous SM chapter codex that's currently out. This has given me an idea for a Duke Sliscus conversion, though...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:In other words, what people are focusing on is the similarities between the Space Marine armies, despite the different Chapters working differently.

They work differently in trivial ways, and could just as easily be built into the vanilla codex. Just cut out the mindnumbingly pointless segment on Smurf iconography, and there's room to list any changes. That would free up dev time for factions that are actually relevant to the background, like an AdMech codex, or a proper Inquisition one. Perhaps the Guard could get an extra codex, since they are the single largest, most diverse (by origin) faction in the setting. They'd certainly have more justification for it.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:In other words, what people are focusing on is the similarities between the Space Marine armies, despite the different Chapters working differently.

They work differently in trivial ways, and could just as easily be built into the vanilla codex. Just cut out the mindnumbingly pointless segment on Smurf iconography, and there's room to list any changes. That would free up dev time for factions that are actually relevant to the background, like an AdMech codex, or a proper Inquisition one. Perhaps the Guard could get an extra codex, since they are the single largest, most diverse (by origin) faction in the setting. They'd certainly have more justification for it.

And the bolded part is where I shook my head. Do I agree that most Marine armies could be represented by one Codex? Yes. Are the marines, as you imply in your post, irrelevant to the background? Gak no. The entire setting is built around the Marines.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:In other words, what people are focusing on is the similarities between the Space Marine armies, despite the different Chapters working differently.

They work differently in trivial ways, and could just as easily be built into the vanilla codex. Just cut out the mindnumbingly pointless segment on Smurf iconography, and there's room to list any changes. That would free up dev time for factions that are actually relevant to the background, like an AdMech codex, or a proper Inquisition one. Perhaps the Guard could get an extra codex, since they are the single largest, most diverse (by origin) faction in the setting. They'd certainly have more justification for it.

And the bolded part is where I shook my head. Do I agree that most Marine armies could be represented by one Codex? Yes. Are the marines, as you imply in your post, irrelevant to the background? Gak no. The entire setting is built around the Marines.

The Marketing is built around them, not the setting. They number less than one million strong, less than there are planets, less then there are warships capable of leveling continents, less then there are superheavy tanks, less then there are Titans, a thousandth the number of entire regiments of the Guard, around a tenth the strength of the annual Guard tithe of Armageddon (one Space Marine is equal to twelve guardsmen, so their total strength is around ten to twelve million Guardsmen, around a tenth the annual tithe paid by Armageddon). The only faction less relevant are the Chaos Space Marines, who number yet less still, and are led by bumbling clowns like Abaddon, who make even stooges like Calgar look like Creed in comparison. Even the Tau are more powerful and relevant. Tau of all things!

Honestly, the 'lack of xeno love' isn't just a codex issue.

Where's the Eldar buildings? Tyranid spore towers? Tau bunkers?
If we want to add some color to our battlefields, we have to scratch build everything. Even FW pulled their old 'nid stuff.

But sweet Emperor we've got all the IG and SM terrain boxes and bitz a person can ask for.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Warhammer_40,000_Terrain
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440312a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

The ONLY xeno terrain is one set of orc barricades.

I think the eldar play issue is a codex update problem (as do most here.)
But it does point to an ideology issue that causes some noses to wrinkle.
Seriously, why 8 SM chapters, but nothing for Craftworld Ulthwe? No Thousand Sons codex? REALLY?

It bears consideration.

daemonhunter187 wrote:Honestly, the 'lack of xeno love' isn't just a codex issue.

Where's the Eldar buildings? Tyranid spore towers? Tau bunkers?
If we want to add some color to our battlefields, we have to scratch build everything. Even FW pulled their old 'nid stuff.

But sweet Emperor we've got all the IG and SM terrain boxes and bitz a person can ask for.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Warhammer_40,000_Terrain
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440312a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

The ONLY xeno terrain is one set of orc barricades.

I think the eldar play issue is a codex update problem (as do most here.)
But it does point to an ideology issue that causes some noses to wrinkle.
Seriously, why 8 SM chapters, but nothing for Craftworld Ulthwe? No Thousand Sons codex? REALLY?

It bears consideration.

Because SM sell better then Eldar and Thousand Sons.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Just to give you a similar example; I play Black Templars. Our melee units, with the exception of assault terminators that more or less need a Land Raider to transport them, are effectively neutered by the fact that all the 5th ed assault-centred armies get more attacks for a cheaper price. We also can't RZ into combat anymore. This, in combination with the recent FAQ changes (which I'd be more happy with if they did one for each 'dex) makes the best Templars lists be shooty as gak, completely the opposite of the fluff. This doesn't make me draw the conclusion that GW has "no idea" what to do with my beloved Templars, I just accept that I don't play a 5th ed army. Why should Eldar be any different? Why is it OK for a Xeno army to demand being updated without anyone thinking twice, but when a marine player does the same people rage that we "don't need any more SM armies"?

Hush you; you get rerolls to hit in CC and the transport buff everyone else get. 35 point rhinos and you'll be dandy.

I'd agree that GW is kind of lost. They've forced themselves to look at Eldar as a 'specialist' army and don't know how to make them work.

What's sad is how you need to both outnumber the opponent, outgun the opponent, and still use 2 powers from your HQ to make any given unit in the codex pull their own weight. And this is what GW considers 'specializing'.

It's also sad to see people claim Eldar are 'powerful' or 'effective' with their current codex when the only reason they give this impression is due to how broken Marine and IG codex are and how the majority of your games are against these armies.

Point Rhinos and Chimera appropriately and fix firing points and sponsons for Marines and IG and we would see fewer 3x min squad fire dragons giving Eldar players false hope as they place at tournaments.

Nvs wrote:I'd agree that GW is kind of lost. They've forced themselves to look at Eldar as a 'specialist' army and don't know how to make them work.

What's sad is how you need to both outnumber the opponent, outgun the opponent, and still use 2 powers from your HQ to make any given unit in the codex pull their own weight. And this is what GW considers 'specializing'.

They're hopelessly outdated and overcosted. Whenever they get their new codex they'll be back in the top tier, just like the new DE are, and just as they were in their time.

It's also sad to see people claim Eldar are 'powerful' or 'effective' with their current codex when the only reason they give this impression is due to how broken Marine and IG codex are and how the majority of your games are against these armies.

Point Rhinos and Chimera appropriately and fix firing points and sponsons for Marines and IG and we would see fewer 3x min squad fire dragons giving Eldar players false hope as they place at tournaments.

I can't make any sense of any of this. Are you saying that MEQ and Guard are weak and/or overcosted, so that the Eldar codex looks good in comparison? Because that's ridiculous.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Commissar Rant wrote:First to say anything.. at all... about space marines NEEDING ANYTHING is far from fair. Don't like your SM codex? Play out of the reg one, its one of the best out there. Or just use the rules from on of the 50,000 others....

Don't like your Eldar Codex? Play Dark Eldar instead! They're a good Codex!

Seriously, people complain about "Codex-hoppers" but when someone wants to stick to a Codex and wants it updated the Legio Spacemarinehateis turn around and wage a Crusade against every slightest idea about updating marines.

To reiterate: We're in the same situation. I could switch to SW or BA to get an assaulty team, neither of which I want to do. Similarly, if you want to play a fast, fragile hard-hitting army, there's Dark Eldar, which you don't want to play. Because I play a marine army, however, I can't say anything at all while you, as a Xeno player, can complain 'til you drop? Seriously, knock it off with the hypocrisy, it's borderline infuriating.

To butt into the conversation:
The Black Templars do need a new codex; the problem is that Space Marine models can be used with any of the Marine Codexes. Black Templars use the same models as Ultramarines use the same models as Blood Angels use the same models as Space Wolves (almost). Eldar models are not the same as and are not equivalent to Dark Eldar models. A rhino= a rhino, but a Wave Serpent =/= a raider. This is compounded because Marine codexes have been updated so much recently; its not directed at you specifically, but a lot of xenos players (myself included) are eager to see neglected xenos codexes updated before we get any new marine books (and so I don't come across as a total hypocrite, I submit that I have a Dark Angels Army that is in the same boat as the BTs). No one is trying to say that BT are all well and good, its just that marine players tend to have more options open because of the cross-compatibility of the models.
Edit: Well, I guess I just can't find the page indicator. Fail...

Commissar Rant wrote:Even chaos... that have the most potential to have several different "chapters" get.... you guessed it! 1!

To be fair, Chaos has 2 codexes: Marines and Daemons. I liked the idea of them staying in one codex, but I do understand why GW made them two separate ones-it makes sense from a business standpoint to sell more models.

And as a general statement to people who have said this before (not naming anyone specifically), Daemons deserve their own codex and don't suck. They're quite good and I love the direction GW took with them in their own book.

Commissar Rant wrote: I'm not sayong BT aren't behind, currently they are a joke.

A joke? I've only played a few games with my BT so far, but they've wrecked house each time I have. My Reclusiarch command squad with attached tech marines put out such a wave of hurt that NOTHING usually survives them. They also have the best assault terminators in the game (without attaching a Sanguine Priest for BA). They also have the cheapest land speeders, army wide preferred enemy, the ability to take up to 2 terminators/squad with assault cannons (up to 5 times!!) and the ability to have the best Vindicators in the game. They are far from "a joke."


And I played Eldar a few times too, won some, lost some. The codex isn't bad, it just isn't a 'point and click' army like most marines are. I like them, and I will probably hang on to what I do have (mostly foot slogging) until the next update. I happen to love Pathfinders. Bad things happen when people ignore my Pathfinders...

To give them a more unified feel, throw in more psykers throughout the army, every single Eldar is psychically active after all.

And while we're wishlisting, I'd like to see rules for Exodites. Eldar with dinosaurs? Yes please!

MandalorynOranj wrote:And while we're wishlisting, I'd like to see rules for Exodites. Eldar with dinosaurs? Yes please!

At this point I think I'd 'settle' for just the Knights. I would LOVE to see the centauroid knight in 28mm.

^_^