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On infinite henchmen:

it is one of the few things that truly "Breaks The Game". Ignoring the FOC is just wrong.

Regardless of whether GW says it is legal or not, I think a lot of TO's would simply override that and say henchmen are limited to 6 units per detachment.
NO ONE will play against this list in a friendly game. It will simply not be fun.

I think that any discussion of infinite henchmen should wait for the FAQ to come out.
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Henchmen still can do the Min/Max thing very well.

3 Warriors in a Razorback with HB/Psybolt is 82 points. You can take 6 of those and still have the points to take Purifers as elite, and a bunch of Psyrifles as heavy support.

ph34r wrote:According to the rules, infinite henchmen units is legal. We'll see if GW decides to throw out a rules change on it.

Please explain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

svendrex wrote:On infinite henchmen:

it is one of the few things that truly "Breaks The Game". Ignoring the FOC is just wrong.

Regardless of whether GW says it is legal or not, I think a lot of TO's would simply override that and say henchmen are limited to 6 units per detachment.
NO ONE will play against this list in a friendly game. It will simply not be fun.

I think that any discussion of infinite henchmen should wait for the FAQ to come out.
======


Henchmen still can do the Min/Max thing very well.

3 Warriors in a Razorback with HB/Psybolt is 82 points. You can take 6 of those and still have the points to take Purifers as elite, and a bunch of Psyrifles as heavy support.

Why is there a loop hole at this time. "May be taken as troops" is pretty clear. 6 troops are available via the FoC.

Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband does not take up Force Organisation Slots. It's in their entry, right under the title, before the stat lines.

ElCheezus wrote:Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband does not take up Force Organisation Slots. It's in their entry, right under the title, before the stat lines.

but if Coteaz is taken, they may be taken as troops. So at best I could see it stretched to include 6 troop slots and one ban extra for each INQ included in the lists.

Byte wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband does not take up Force Organisation Slots. It's in their entry, right under the title, before the stat lines.

but if Coteaz is taken, they may be taken as troops. So at best I could see it stretched to include 6 troop slots and one ban extra for each INQ included in the lists.

Just because they count as Troops doesn't mean you can selectively ignore their other special rules, such as the fact that they don't take up FoC slots. There is no doubt that you can take an unlimited number of henchmen units with Coteaz--it's right there in black and white.

Anyway back on topic.

DCA + Arco's.. both grenade types and hammer hand. + Land Raider

Only take crusaders (in addition to DCA's & Acro's) with Corteaz (if your running an assault squad; otherwise a shooty chimera will suffice) as they offer protection and are a good unit to engage walkers and scary IC units.

More DCA's + Arcos in rhinos. Edit: Arcos add in a lot of potential damage compared to crusaders (Rof str6 attacls, with nades it can ID T4) and with cover, their FNP makes them quiet resilient.

I am torn between the lethal & partially suicidal psyker squads or Shooty henchmen. You don't need chimeras for the psykers but would help. You do for melta-henchmen.

Str10 is what is lacking from both the shooting (assuming you field some psyfleman dreads and multi-meltas) and assaults in a Coteaz army.

8 Psykers = Str 10 AP 1
I don't find many occasions where Str 10 is used often. People say AT I say Melta and Lance SR. Str 10 is only good for T5 things with Multiple wounds, and most have Eternal warrrior.

Things S10 AP1 Pie Plates are good against

1) Thunderwolf Cavalry, IG Ogryn, DE Grotesques, Tyranid Harpies (T5, multiple wounds and no eternal warrior)

2) Monoliths (immune to lance and melta)

3) AV14 at RANGE. (melta is good, but you need to get in their face to use it. 36" move and shoot is very nice for that. There are no Lances in the GK book)

4) Anything T4 with multiple wounds (tyranids have a few things, Ork Nobs, GK Paladins)

5) Massed heavy infantry. (Non TH/SS termies, FNP marines)


6) Scare Tactics
Psykers are a very low cost unit, but they have one of the strongest guns ever. Yes it is unreliable, yes it can kill itself, but you can get your opponent to do stupid things to get rid of it just becuase of the threat it poses.

S10 is not often used because there are few places where you can get it. Look at Tau players. They take a lot of S10, because they have access to it. Orks take Deffrollas en mass for the S10 as well.

But that's because It's whats needed without that they've got no real AV 14 Busting power.

I'm going for a Crusader wall. Not very Mobile but tough as hell and can pack a punch.

I've got a Callidus for killing things my guns can't reach, just not sure on how too kill the rest of their stuff.

I'm thinking of two Interceptor squads a 30" threat range and can get thoose tanks hiding away from me and add the Force weapons my current list lacks. (For a GK list anyway)

I was also thinking Purifiers, but I need something mobile that can be multi-purpose mainly for Anti-Artillery and things that don't want too get near me.

I don't want too get any tanks though because it reduces most armies effectivness. The only problem is I'm not as mobile myself.

Indeed & I play against monoliths & land raiders. I would like to mention that str 10 is still better vs the weakest of vehicles, as it auto-pens compared to a 1/6 chance to only get a glance with str9. So why not, they are so cheap.

Pure henchman, I would say, would need transports and mobility (and durability) as they haven't got the deep-strike rules or the personal teleporters like strike squads, GKT's and interceptor squads. - Or that lovely MEQ toughness.

Hybrid styles, I'm sure you could mix in some decent combinations. But then you couldn't paint the entire army black with big silver dotted around

I say don't be tempted by expensive shiny toy units.

A HB razorback with psybolt ammo is 50 points. That's 3 twin-linked BS4 Str6 shots at 36" while moving at combat speed.

Put three 4-point guys in there to make it scoring (and to allow you to buy the transport) and that's 62 points. Who cares that they only have laspistols--you can't shoot out of a razor anyway.

(If you absolutely must, give the three guys meltaguns for a 92 point unit.)

Six of those is less than 400 points. Then you can add all the shiny toy gray knight units you want.

Storm bolters are a pipe dream IMO. Bolt ammo isn't any better when shot at assault2/24" and BS 3 than they do when shot by space marines, and I don't see anybody scrambling to buy more boltgun marines.

Chimera's achilles' heel is the side armor, and the BS3. Razorbacks are better for the same number of str6 shots, but more hits per vehicle at a better AP.

I think that the Close Combat henchmen (specifically the DCA) work well in Razorbacks of any type as well.

DCA work well in small units as they can hit first and hit hard even without Rad+Hammerhand or quicksilver



Storm bolters are not that great, but if you want a few guys to catch bullets, then maybe they could deal a little damage for a few more points.

They are NOT a must have, but when they are boosted by a jokaero they are a little better.

can the melta-henchmen take the stom shelds too?

Danny Internets wrote:Just because they count as Troops doesn't mean you can selectively ignore their other special rules, such as the fact that they don't take up FoC slots. There is no doubt that you can take an unlimited number of henchmen units with Coteaz--it's right there in black and white.

Except, that special rule is available by taking an Inquisitor. If you're not taking an Inquisitor, how can "that unit" (the one that the Inquisitor unlocks) not take up a FoC slot? The "black and white" makes it clear that the only units that do not take up slots are the ones that are unlocked by Inquisitors. The most you can take is 8 - Coteaz and another Inquisitor (for 2 free units, following the rules on the page for the Warband) and 6 Troops.

The Henchmen rules are messed up anyway, since Coteaz doesn't tell you what size the units are allowed to be.

As for the topic, I prefer mixing units. There's no need to include more than 5 DCA IMO. Take 3 Warriors w/ Meltaguns, 1 of which has a Meltabomb, and fill up with Crusaders. Another option is some Arcos for extra attacks against light-armored units.

So has no-one tried Death Cult Assassins in a Stormraven with a kitted out GKGM? If the rest of your GK stuff is shooty then this gives you something that can reach out and touch someone. Have used it with great success.

th3eviltwin wrote:can the melta-henchmen take the stom shelds too?

Yeah for twenty points, not worth it.

Thats something I don't get its 39 points for a warrior with shield and power weapon yet its only 15 for a crusader.

When it comes to psychers 4 is the magic #

S6 ap3=wound meq on a 2+ with no armor saves.

schadenfreude wrote:When it comes to psychers 4 is the magic #

S6 ap3=wound meq on a 2+ with no armor saves.

yeah but if i throw a termie at you then you just do nothing haha and for an additional 10pts per +1str and -1Ap why not upgrade them?


the DCA work very well in a stormraven with a librarian would be more fun they rip apart almost anything they get into CC with the shear number of power weapon attacks, add the librarian' s hammer hand a might of the titan ability and you have high str power weapon high initiative models for little points

I think that a librarian powers work better with Arco-Flagellants


Might of Titan on Arcos is very deadly to vehicles. They would have 5 attacks at S6 with 2d6 armor pen. It is like each Arco is as deadly as a Hive Tyrant (against Vehicles)


Arcos are only Int 3, which is kinda bad. Quicksilver counters this. With Int 10 they can strike before Hormagaunts, Genestealers, and Dark Eldar. With a lot of attacks, they can put the damage on units with low armor that usually rely on their Int to hit first and deal a lot of damage.


Arcos have no save, but they do have FNP. If you combine that FNP with a 3+ cover save from shrouding, they are quite durable against S5 or less firepower.


I think that the Librarian helps to "fix" a lot of the issues that Arcos have. A librarian will still buff a squad of Death Cult Assassins, but all the DCA really need is someone cheap with Rad+Hammerhand.

bob501 wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:When it comes to psychers 4 is the magic #

S6 ap3=wound meq on a 2+ with no armor saves.

yeah but if i throw a termie at you then you just do nothing haha and for an additional 10pts per +1str and -1Ap why not upgrade them?


the DCA work very well in a stormraven with a librarian would be more fun they rip apart almost anything they get into CC with the shear number of power weapon attacks, add the librarian' s hammer hand a might of the titan ability and you have high str power weapon high initiative models for little points

4 psykers in a squad is really cheap for a 6/3 pie
S6 Ap3 wounds MEQ on a 2+ with no armor save
S7 AP2 wounds MEQ on a 2+ with no armor save

If you're going to pie marines the extra 10 points does nothing, absolutely nothing.

The only units S7 AP2 is great against are FNP blood angels, plague marines, or terminators that don't have a TH/SS. Purifiers with halberds already make FNP blood angels, plague marines, and terminators without a TH/SS cry.

If you're going to run multiple squads that 10 points multiplied over 4 or 5 squads comes to a lot of points.

With multiple squads I can see upgrading 1 or 2 squads to 6 psykers for an 8/1 pie so that it instant kills T4 targets, but the majority of squads with psykers should be in groups of 4

10/1 is a bit silly unless you're really scared of TWC. GK already have a lot of anti tank, and can live without a 10/1 pie. The main problem I have with the 10/1 pie is the following:

S10 Ap1 wounds MEQ on a 2+ with no armor save
S6 Ap3 wounds MEQ on a 2+ with no armor save for half the cost of the 10/1 pie meaning you can kill double the # of MEQ per turn as a 10/1 pie for the same # of points.

svendrex wrote:
I think that the Librarian helps to "fix" a lot of the issues that Arcos have. A librarian will still buff a squad of Death Cult Assassins, but all the DCA really need is someone cheap with Rad+Hammerhand.

That's sort of the point isn't it? It takes an IC like the librarian to fix the problems the arcos have. Whereas the death cult are ready to go and powerful right out of the box, no support needed. And if you do throw an IC into the unit, the death cult will benefit whether its a librarian or not.

I agree that a librarian can buff arcos to the point of being powerful but I can't justify taking an entire unit of them (or mixed with crusaders). At most I would throw 2 into a unit of death cult/crusaders to gain 10 high strength attacks on the charge.

I use my assault henchmen as a counter charge unit in a storm raven ready to hit the scariest enemy unit on the board. Generally that means I need the high initiative power weapons of the death cult more than high volume/strength attacks of the arcos. But having a couple in the unit helps against high toughness MCs, hordes and occasionally tangling with walkers.

Edit for schanenfreude: All those 4 man psyker units you're taking are specialized exclusively against infantry. They aren't good against vehicles, MCs, or units with 2+ armor. GK as an army have zero problems dealing with the infantry and have no need to resort to scattering pie plates to get the job done.

If I were to use psykers, it would be 1 or 2 big units to drop high strength/low AP pie plates on any target I wanted. Considering the fact that they *can* get a strength 10/AP 1 large blast, why not make use of it and have a reliable weapon vs anything you shoot at?

Like Brute, I think I'd just run DCAs, maybe with some Crusaders thrown in for extra staying power, depending. That way everything has power weapons, which is just mean.

Arcos are better against a very narrow group of targets: Orks and Vehicles. Guardsmen die at about the same rate either way. Maybe your meta has ten Ork players, but otherwise DCAs are going to be a better bet. As for vehicles, you can either take a Librarain for MoT, or you can just kill it with the rest of your army. At 150 points for 10 DCA, there's plenty of room for other units to cover what the DCAs can't.

I also like to add in an inquisitor with at least Rad grenades. If you have to go up against TMCs or something similar, it doubles the damage they do (1/6 chance of wounding up to 1/3), making them even more likely to drop it on the charge.

The psykers only take 4 bodies, and there are many different ways the squad could go.

On foot with 8 boltgun warriors as a cheap objective holder

Mechanized with 3 melta gun warriors

Mechanized with 3 plasma gun warriors

Mechanized in a Rhino with 6 deathcult assassins. Move 6" and blast with a pie every turn until something is close enough for the deathcult to charge.

There are a ton of different viable possibilities that involve mixing 4 psykers with up to 8 other henchmen.

schadenfreude wrote:S6 ap3=wound meq on a 2+ with no armor saves.

5th Edition favours vehicles. There are many vehicles in 5th edition, simply put.

How easily do virtually all of the units in the Grey Knight Codex handle MEQ (or TEQ for that matter), from strike squads to DCA's; Very easily. Do you really need more cheap anti-MEQ pie plates? I would say no. At the very least, it is worth investing points to reach AP1 - to make the psykers more effective at destroying vehicles - this also leaves enough spare henchman slots (out of 12 models) to field nearly any variety of melta-men, HB servitors, etc.

As for a more dedicated henchman only squad/armies, you lack force weapons, daemon hammers and dreadnoughts to provide high str attacks, which become very useful vs units like monoliths, landraiders, multi-wound models and even assault leman russ chassis.

For any given target, there is a henchman unit that is optimal for taking it out.
The issue is to try and make TAC units and lists using henchmen.

There is such a huge diversity of unit builds that it is difficult to decide how to build a unit.
This combination is great against Orks, but this other combination is better against MEQ, but this combination is better against TEQ.


Henchmen are great because they can take on any target with an efficient unit, either in the shooting phase or in the assault phase.
The issue is building a unit and a list that can handle everything you see in your Metagame.


For me, S10 AP1 Pie plate in a rhino for 124 pts is a good selection for a TAC build. (8x psykers, 1x bland warrior, rhino)

Is the the most efficient against a Tyranid horde unit or guardmen? NO
Is it the most efficient against MEQ or TEQ? NO
does it have problems against armies with good Psy Defence? YES

Is it able to deal damage to anything I point it at? YES
Even if it does not deal damage, is it a useful unit? YES (just the threat of S10 AP1 can be useful)

I am already planning on including a vindicare in my lists, and he will help take out psy defense as needed.

Best Crusader to DCA ratio ? one to three? 50%? i can't quite make my mind up.

th3eviltwin wrote:Best Crusader to DCA ratio ? one to three? 50%? i can't quite make my mind up.

I think one to three is a decent ratio, your ultimate goal is to enough DCA so that the opponent doesn't even have a chance to strike back.


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I've been looking at DCA and the damage output when you combine them with a tech marine or inquisitor with rad and psychotroke grenades

12 DCA with hammerhand from IC and rad grenades

against 10 TH/SS termis 48 attacks 32 hits 27 wounds 9 dead if the psychotroke grenades come up as a 2, 3 or 6 the termis are wiped

so for 255 points you can wipe out 400 points of termis without taking a single casualty

youbedead wrote:

th3eviltwin wrote:Best Crusader to DCA ratio ? one to three? 50%? i can't quite make my mind up.

I think one to three is a decent ratio, your ultimate goal is to enough DCA so that the opponent doesn't even have a chance to strike back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've been looking at DCA and the damage output when you combine them with a tech marine or inquisitor with rad and psychotroke grenades

12 DCA with hammerhand from IC and rad grenades

against 10 TH/SS termis 48 attacks 32 hits 27 wounds 9 dead if the psychotroke grenades come up as a 2, 3 or 6 the termis are wiped

so for 255 points you can wipe out 400 points of termis without taking a single casualty

12 and a IC are you running them on foot?

Dont forget to add the 250+ points for the land raider on top of your 255 points for 12 DCA + Inq.